Topic: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat? (Read 23361 times)

tejasapatel · « **Reply #30 on:** May 01, 2014, 08:18:27 PM »

Quote from: Seniorplayer on May 01, 2014, 07:55:09 PM

How soon a a bat opens up also depends on how hard it has been pressed.

True. I never said grains are the only thing that count when it comes to bat's peak performance.

ItsJustCricket · « **Reply #31 on:** May 01, 2014, 08:58:09 PM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on May 01, 2014, 11:54:42 AM

I personally care about grading because I fear makers/retailers are 99.9% of the time, just looking to make the most they can. If that means making a ugly bat a grade 1/2 and saying it's based on 'performance', or saying 'ah, but there are not guidelines so we can do what we want', then to me they are just saying 'pay up or shut up'.

While people then turn around saying 'ah, so just go somewhere else then, market forces blah blah'... does that really work?? no.. You know as well as I do that all that happens is people just keep raising the prices and boom.. suddenly we the consumer are paying more and more and there is nothing you can do about it.

That's why I get annoyed when I see bats that don't seem value for money BUT it is a personal opinion and I suspect most people don't care and merely care about telling people 'I payed �300 for this, it must be better than yours'.
Each to their own, but this is what retailers thrive off as these are the customers to target and cash in.

(not saying it's any one retailers fault, just the way our western economies are now. All about the profit and not about actually providing genuine competition. we all want to earn 100k a year for doing feck all and that's what business leaders are aiming for.. max profit for as little work as possible.)

Are we in the 0.1% bracket for doing this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgFFeR2HnQ

tejasapatel · « **Reply #32 on:** May 01, 2014, 09:08:55 PM »

Quote from: ItsJustCricket on May 01, 2014, 08:58:09 PM

Are we in the 0.1% bracket for doing this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgFFeR2HnQ

well played Paul.

mattw · « **Reply #33 on:** May 02, 2014, 12:32:04 AM »

Just to throw it out there - how about the 'rarity' of the so called 'better' tight grained willow? I personally don't know much about growing willow - however I would assume that tighter grained willow is harder to get do to it growing slower?

tim2000s · « **Reply #34 on:** May 02, 2014, 05:41:06 AM »

Generally to have tight grains either:

1. The tree needs to be older or;
2. The area of the tree from which the cleft came is narrower, i.e. higher up the trunk.

Given the sheer volume of willow demand now due to the massive increase in bat making on the sub continent and the demand over the last 10 years for more grains, there are likely to be far fewer older trees with tight grains, meaning it is harder to get your hands on.

fasteddie · « **Reply #35 on:** May 02, 2014, 05:51:26 AM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on May 01, 2014, 11:54:42 AM

I personally care about grading because I fear makers/retailers are 99.9% of the time, just looking to make the most they can. If that means making a ugly bat a grade 1/2 and saying it's based on 'performance', or saying 'ah, but there are not guidelines so we can do what we want', then to me they are just saying 'pay up or shut up'.

While people then turn around saying 'ah, so just go somewhere else then, market forces blah blah'... does that really work?? no.. You know as well as I do that all that happens is people just keep raising the prices and boom.. suddenly we the consumer are paying more and more and there is nothing you can do about it.

That's why I get annoyed when I see bats that don't seem value for money BUT it is a personal opinion and I suspect most people don't care and merely care about telling people 'I payed �300 for this, it must be better than yours'.
Each to their own, but this is what retailers thrive off as these are the customers to target and cash in.

(not saying it's any one retailers fault, just the way our western economies are now. All about the profit and not about actually providing genuine competition. we all want to earn 100k a year for doing feck all and that's what business leaders are aiming for.. max profit for as little work as possible.)

The management of retailers and bat makers have to, by means of their constitution, have to maximise the return on investment to the shareholders.

As such, the price we pay is through choice.
If nobody paid �500 for a bat then the price would fall until people started buying.

They have found an equilibrium and are maximising their returns accordingly.

I don't blame them for doing so, it's normal and acceptable.

procricket · « **Reply #36 on:** May 02, 2014, 10:37:33 AM »

Quote from: mattw on May 02, 2014, 12:32:04 AM

Just to throw it out there - how about the 'rarity' of the so called 'better' tight grained willow? I personally don't know much about growing willow - however I would assume that tighter grained willow is harder to get do to it growing slower?

I'm learning a thing or two about willow at the moment the reason tight grains are better initially is more grains in a bat produce a stiffer blade. Stiffer blade is naturally the best kind of bat plain and simple.

I'm learning my stuff of Streaky who is known and trusted by Jeremy Ruggles a man i would one day love to meet and share a beer talking about willow.

Too many people go off a sound rather than feel and actual rebound and there a big difference between Stiff which is not hard either.

Why do people ask for a softly pressed bat when reality is a Stiff crust for a bat is the real performance measure not taking into personal ID up into account like profile and pick up.

Ref laminates the glue has no performance enhancement apart from stiffing the joint and if in balance with a stiff vineer and a decent soft under belly will produce marginal performing if any.

Seniorplayer · « **Reply #37 on:** May 02, 2014, 01:07:08 PM »

The softly pressed bats i have owned the fibres open up sooner.

tim2000s · « **Reply #38 on:** May 02, 2014, 02:06:42 PM »

Quote from: Seniorplayer on May 02, 2014, 01:07:08 PM

The softly pressed bats i have owned the fibres open up sooner.

This statement is full of a bunch of oddities.

When you knock a bat in, you effectively press it further to create a "stiff crust", as Dave says. Therefore a softly pressed bat takes longer to make this happen. A softly pressed bat also really doesn't work very well. Believe me, Buzz and I received an interesting bat with almost zero pressing. It didn't work. We took it to Gray Nics to press it. They were shocked at how unpressed it was. It really had no performance and the bashing made huge dents in the face.

When you knock a bat in, you compress the face. The effect of the tiny cracks down the grain is caused by compression in some areas effectively pulling the wood surface apart. Apparently it indicates a bat that will perform well. I guess it's almost like a minor level of delamination. I can't say that it is something I've ever seen in a bat that I've knocked in or has had use for a long time and I don't really believe that it is really that important....

Finally, how do you know a bat is softly pressed? Has the batmaker told you they usually apply 50psi to a bat and you've requested 40psi? Of do they normally apply a range based on the cleft and you simply have an appropriately pressed cleft that happened to require less pressure? We see a lot of statements about softly pressed blades and I'm afraid I'm a bit of a cynic relating to them.

Six Sixes Cricket · « **Reply #39 on:** May 02, 2014, 02:12:30 PM »

Quote from: tim2000s on May 02, 2014, 02:06:42 PM

This statement is full of a bunch of oddities.

When you knock a bat in, you effectively press it further to create a "stiff crust", as Dave says. Therefore a softly pressed bat takes longer to make this happen. A softly pressed bat also really doesn't work very well. Believe me, Buzz and I received an interesting bat with almost zero pressing. It didn't work. We took it to Gray Nics to press it. They were shocked at how unpressed it was. It really had no performance and the bashing made huge dents in the face.

When you knock a bat in, you compress the face. The effect of the tiny cracks down the grain is caused by compression in some areas effectively pulling the wood surface apart. Apparently it indicates a bat that will perform well. I guess it's almost like a minor level of delamination. I can't say that it is something I've ever seen in a bat that I've knocked in or has had use for a long time and I don't really believe that it is really that important....

Finally, how do you know a bat is softly pressed? Has the batmaker told you they usually apply 50psi to a bat and you've requested 40psi? Of do they normally apply a range based on the cleft and you simply have an appropriately pressed cleft that happened to require less pressure? We see a lot of statements about softly pressed blades and I'm afraid I'm a bit of a cynic relating to them.

Great post Tim. I've asked many times how can you tell if a bat is softly pressed and no one has ever answered.

procricket · « **Reply #40 on:** May 02, 2014, 03:30:00 PM »

Quote from: d7bow on May 02, 2014, 02:12:30 PM

Great post Tim. I've asked many times how can you tell if a bat is softly pressed and no one has ever answered.

Rob i can tell you there no such thing as soft press it would be lighter pressed but then you have to take into account the cleft at Raw state and the natural "stiffness" of the cleft first.

I'm beginning to sort of sound coherent.

Then it a new question and who group presses and who singular presses.

Willow is willow no two pieces are the same and if they where would they play equally...

Six Sixes Cricket · « **Reply #41 on:** May 02, 2014, 04:14:25 PM »

Quote from: procricket B3 on May 02, 2014, 03:30:00 PM

Rob i can tell you there no such thing as soft press it would be lighter pressed but then you have to take into account the cleft at Raw state and the natural "stiffness" of the cleft first.

I'm beginning to sort of sound coherent.

Then it a new question and who group presses and who singular presses.

Willow is willow no two pieces are the same and if they where would they play equally...

Yet we seem to have members and shop owners say they prefer a "softly pressed bat" on here regular. I would like to know how people can tell between a lightly/softer pressed bat to a standard or harder pressed bat.

procricket · « **Reply #42 on:** May 02, 2014, 04:20:32 PM »

Quote from: d7bow on May 02, 2014, 04:14:25 PM

Yet we seem to have members and shop owners say they prefer a "softly pressed bat" on here regular. I would like to know how people can tell between a lightly/softer pressed bat to a standard or harder pressed bat.

They go off sound i think most of the time. But sound and feel are totally two things yet people associate them as the same.

tushar sehgal · « **Reply #43 on:** May 02, 2014, 04:29:53 PM »

Regarding the pressing discussion I think its possible to get bats that are harder pressed than others and it is possible to tell the difference when knocking it in. For e.g. my M&H is softer pressed than Kook bubble which is softer than the GM Epic I have.

How can I tell, well when I hit it with a mallet softer one indent a lot easily than harder. I find harder pressed ones require less knocking, contrary to popular belief, but do need some playing in. What confuses people, in my opinion, is that harder pressed ones give off more vibrations so the ball travels like it would off a newish bat but it feels worse in the hands. L&W Legend I had was a great example of this, ball travelled off the face incredibly but the vibrations I felt in my hands made me feel the bat was knocked in etc. Don't know if it is to with the handle but thinking about the thread where UZI bat didn't feel as good till the handle was "knocked" etc.

procricket · « **Reply #44 on:** May 02, 2014, 05:07:10 PM »

Quote from: tushar sehgal on May 02, 2014, 04:29:53 PM

Regarding the pressing discussion I think its possible to get bats that are harder pressed than others and it is possible to tell the difference when knocking it in. For e.g. my M&H is softer pressed than Kook bubble which is softer than the GM Epic I have.

How can I tell, well when I hit it with a mallet softer one indent a lot easily than harder. I find harder pressed ones require less knocking, contrary to popular belief, but do need some playing in. What confuses people, in my opinion, is that harder pressed ones give off more vibrations so the ball travels like it would off a newish bat but it feels worse in the hands. L&W Legend I had was a great example of this, ball travelled off the face incredibly but the vibrations I felt in my hands made me feel the bat was knocked in etc. Don't know if it is to with the handle but thinking about the thread where UZI bat didn't feel as good till the handle was "knocked" etc.

All i know is i have had around 6 top players bats in my hands and all of them felt stiff and the sound was mental and the rebound was crazy.

The trampoline theory is rubbish because there is inward motion yet if it is taught the crust it would be outward instead of inward then outward.

It is like middle's people think there where the main mass is which is very wrong from the truth.

But i will leave it all for my master to talk about i'm getting my head around the science which is going on but loving every minute and before my knowlidge was theory based but now I'm seeing the practicalities of the science in motion.

Author Topic: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat? (Read 23361 times)

tejasapatel

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

ItsJustCricket

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

tejasapatel

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

mattw

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

tim2000s

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

fasteddie

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

procricket

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

Seniorplayer

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

tim2000s

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

Six Sixes Cricket

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

procricket

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

Six Sixes Cricket

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

procricket

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

tushar sehgal

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?

procricket

Re: Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?