Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
Advertise on CBF

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6

Author Topic: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...  (Read 14073 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Northern monkey

  • World Cup Winner
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3657
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2014, 06:19:58 AM »

Top end bats are indeed a luxury for cricketers

I think it's possible to pick up a decent enough bat for £200,

Does a bat costing more than that look or perform better? 
If a company/bat maker can get away with charging more, then fair play to them
The margins on a genuine grade one bat are tiny compared to most products,

The only company,that personally, bothers me at the moment regarding pricing, is GN
This whole 'legend' thing is way overpriced
I love the look of the bats etc but £500 plus! That's really not cricket
With the huge amount of online reviews nowadays , companies that do take the mick, are living on borrowed time

bruggers100

  • First XI Captain
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 205
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2014, 08:54:41 AM »

From memory, going back 20 - 25 years ago a top of the range bat from the big names would cost around £100 to £150.  Ten years ago, that would have been more £230 (Purist - Original L.E from Romida - I bought an 'Original' based on feel which was about £160).

£500+ for a bat is obscene in my opinion. 

And as we know, go to a shop and you can pick yourself a decent stick from any of the grades available. Also, when you know there are bat makers like the sponsors on here that make great sticks for a much more reasonable sum, why would you pay £500+ for a bat !

Logged

pie-man

  • First XI Captain
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 257
  • Trade Count: (+1)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2014, 09:13:47 AM »

Having spent some time at Chase yesterday, I can see that there are occasions where an expensive bat is justifiable.  If I knew that a bat would fly, and last for 2-3 seasons it would actually be cheaper than buying the 2 (at least) that I seem to buy every year!

Like anything, it comes down to value for money.  If I hadn't already bought a £200 bat this year, to go with my £200 last year (which isn't really right for me), I would probably spend the £375 on the Chase FLC and have it made exactly as I want it.

Needless to say though, I didn't buy it!
Logged

patriotscreen

  • First XI Captain
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2014, 10:41:40 AM »

My last bat cost me under £80 to make. I would only sell it for £120, yet even as a Grade 3 bat it is the nicest bat I have ever used. Not just because I made it myself, it genuinely performs beautifully and everyone who has tried it has said the same.

Charging someone over £200 for a bat is purely greed. If I sell a bat I make about £40-£50 profit, and I am buying clefts one at a time. Large manufacturers are buying them in the thousands, so their costs are considerably less than mine. That being said, I make bats for the pleasure of crafting something by hand, not to line my pockets. I make a profit purely to afford to purchase the next piece of willow and have a bit left to spend on which ever tools i still require.
Logged
Cricklade 2nd XI

Russ

tim2000s

Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2014, 11:28:07 AM »

Charging someone over £200 for a bat is purely greed. If I sell a bat I make about £40-£50 profit, and I am buying clefts one at a time. Large manufacturers are buying them in the thousands, so their costs are considerably less than mine. That being said, I make bats for the pleasure of crafting something by hand, not to line my pockets. I make a profit purely to afford to purchase the next piece of willow and have a bit left to spend on which ever tools i still require.
Do you pay for your salary out of the price of the bat, or your workshop costs? Stating that "Over £200 is purely greed" is a blunt statement that misses out on the point of what the costs of making the bat actually are. Profit is what remains once all costs are taken out. Profit is not actually greed, it is what you use to re-invest, grow the business, etc. There is nothing wrong with making a profit.
Logged

WillyorWonty

  • Club Cricketer
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2014, 12:06:42 PM »

Sometimes I think we all have it the wrong way round, with a cricket bat I've always been told that the wood is the key to a great bat, followed by the pressing and knocking, combine the 2 and you won't be beaten. Since sellers are depending on your viewpoint, simply making a living and only adding a margin on the trade price to make a living or simply talking bull by adding ++++++ to their low grade bats you have to question the sense in buying low grade. I see plenty of bargains being show here and I'm sure that the companies selling them know nothing about bats as most seem to think, but then they do know if the bat has faults in it such as knots, density, they get to tap it up, they know if the handle was bodged in fitting. They have the luxuary of covering the faults with stickers, edge tape etc, pushing the pretty grains on the face knowing about the big knot under the labels. I think the top end shop bats have the very best willow and are pressed as well as anything else, knocking is more important than pressing anyway long term. With a finite amount of top grade willow would it not be mad to spend £200 on someones second grade compared with £300 on the best grade?
Logged

tim2000s

  • Administrator
  • International Superstar
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10678
  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • If I only could bat....
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2014, 12:24:50 PM »

I think the top end shop bats have the very best willow and are pressed as well as anything else, knocking is more important than pressing anyway long term. With a finite amount of top grade willow would it not be mad to spend £200 on someones second grade compared with £300 on the best grade?
Given that the top grade willow is only top grade because of the way it looks, wouldn't the inverse be true?
Logged

jamesisapayne

  • International Captain
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1111
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Best bowling: 8-3-15-6 Best batting: 111
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2014, 12:26:43 PM »

knocking is more important than pressing anyway long term

Err, not agreeing with that at all  :o
Logged

Dan W

  • County 1st XI
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 896
  • Trade Count: (+5)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2014, 12:42:54 PM »

Is a bat worth 500? No, and it's probably wise we stop referencing them - it's an infinitely narrow section of a batmakers target market that are dumb enough to blindly think money = best for all bats (although I'd still argue there is some correlation on that front) and have wardrobes/houses full of similar Veblen-y goods, or have a penchant for showing off. Or shop at Hammer ( ;) ).

So, if we limit our bats to the 'real world' spectrum of, say bats up to £350 (call it a standard top end M&H with an x% discount), is it worth it?

I'd argue, yes.

The problem lies in cynical or unscrupulous (or, realistically, entirely unresponsive to customer reviews/word of mouth) lies in the upgrading of clefts...because they can. I still think it's a complete fallacy that we/most people can judge a bats true eventual performance (and longevity) at point of purchase. A mallet test on an un-knocked-in bat tells you as little as the grain count IMO (whilst I agree that some of us could indeed pick up that magic cleft by sight and sound, the vast majority IMO just think they can). Eliminating duds is a perhaps better use of the in-shop-mallet-whack.

Why is a £350 value? Because, if you've picked the right brand (be it the batmaker or shop picker), they undoubtedly will save the best for the 'whales' that are willing to spend top whack on a bat. If you can afford it, do it. It's not for everyone, though those that do spend top whack on a bat shouldn't be confused with the mugs in the first paragraph, for it is those that are supporting a UK industry purchasing a typically custom product. There's a fair bit of virtue in this IMO. Not to mention it's those £350 bats that pay for the batmakers (similar length of) time spent on the lower clefts/duds. Of course this isn't for everyone, and there is a whopping sense of diminishing returns after, say £180. But it's not the cheapest of productions - years spent as an apprentice and the actual time picking/shaping/grading a cleft can't really find many shortcuts.

There is something a bit sad that no bat will last forever (I once thought (justified!) spending a fair bit on a bat as I'd take great pride in Dan Jnr wielding it (as I did my Dad's old bat- albeit in the garden) though soon learnt that might not be the case!).

The current vogue of bat inflation is a big worry, and something we as a market should work towards restricting. Sadly (IMO Value-less/cynical) brands like Spartan/Hammer black/GN Legend should not be encouraged.
Logged

WillyorWonty

  • Club Cricketer
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2014, 12:58:41 PM »

Given that the top grade willow is only top grade because of the way it looks, wouldn't the inverse be true?

Surely the fact that the better the looks means the less faults means better performance?

I think that better wood is refelected in looks, I'm learning all the time about willow but I work with a lot of other woods and it's all graded of looks as faults effect use, knots etc in Beech and Oak boards for furniture.
Logged

WalkingWicket37

  • International Superstar
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12983
  • Trade Count: (+26)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2014, 01:00:45 PM »

Surely the fact that the better the looks means the less faults means better performance?

I think that better wood is refelected in looks, I'm learning all the time about willow but I work with a lot of other woods and it's all graded of looks as faults effect use, knots etc in Beech and Oak boards for furniture.
Read the thread on butterfly bats then come back haha  ;)
Logged

tim2000s

  • Administrator
  • International Superstar
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10678
  • Trade Count: (+21)
  • If I only could bat....
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2014, 01:01:09 PM »

Surely the fact that the better the looks means the less faults means better performance?

I think that better wood is refelected in looks, I'm learning all the time about willow but I work with a lot of other woods and it's all graded of looks as faults effect use, knots etc in Beech and Oak boards for furniture.
And therein lies the interesting question. If this were 100% true, wouldn't butterfly willow be dreadful? Wouldn't heartwood destroy performance because it is different? In my experience, this isn't the case. I don't think perfect looks do directly translate to performance. Especially when you consider that an unpressed bat doesn't perform so it has a lot to do with that aspect...
Logged

WillyorWonty

  • Club Cricketer
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2014, 01:08:46 PM »

The odd thing is that Sapwood in Oak is too soft to use, so surely Heartwood being better in Hardwoods means Heartwood in bats is better too?

Butterfly stains are cosmetic, they are a different sub species of willow so how would this effect performance? However a knot is always harder and thus does not offer the spring needed to hit a ball. If knots were good then the effect could be replicated by over pressing a bat. We don't see this so I think we can discount the idea of knots no matter the size being good.

I have 4 Beech boards that were going to a customer but now have been removed from his pile as they are perfect, 2.4M long and blemish free, the price for them has gone from £240M3 for the basic boards to £1000M3 as they will end up being either a top end table or benches made by a local furniture makers.
Logged

GarrettJ

  • World Cup Winner
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2512
  • Trade Count: (+2)
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2014, 01:11:35 PM »

A few brands do puzzle me with their pricing ....

  • I saw a black cat bat at £575 .... how do they justify that? they don't sponsor anyone, they don't have massive overheads so im puzzled by that,

    similar to Hammer and their £125 sticker sets on their top bat.

willywonty, i am interested in making a slab table to seat 10 .... how much for a suitable slab of wood?
Logged
retired 2006
retired 2014
retired 2018

fasteddie

  • International Captain
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1507
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Straight up.
Re: Top End Cricket Bats are a Luxury for the amateur cricketer...
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2014, 01:14:45 PM »

Is a bat worth 500? No, and it's probably wise we stop referencing them - it's an infinitely narrow section of a batmakers target market that are dumb enough to blindly think money = best for all bats (although I'd still argue there is some correlation on that front) and have wardrobes/houses full of similar Veblen-y goods, or have a penchant for showing off. Or shop at Hammer ( ;) ).


The problem lies in cynical or unscrupulous (or, realistically, entirely unresponsive to customer reviews/word of mouth) lies in the upgrading of clefts...because they can. I still think it's a complete fallacy that we/most people can judge a bats true eventual performance (and longevity) at point of purchase. A mallet test on an un-knocked-in bat tells you as little as the grain count IMO (whilst I agree that some of us could indeed pick up that magic cleft by sight and sound, the vast majority IMO just think they can). Eliminating duds is a perhaps better use of the in-shop-mallet-whack.

Why is a £350 value? Because, if you've picked the right brand (be it the batmaker or shop picker), they undoubtedly will save the best for the 'whales' that are willing to spend top whack on a bat. If you can afford it, do it. It's not for everyone, though those that do spend top whack on a bat shouldn't be confused with the mugs in the first paragraph, for it is those that are supporting a UK industry purchasing a typically custom product. There's a fair bit of virtue in this IMO. Not to mention it's those £350 bats that pay for the batmakers (similar length of) time spent on the lower clefts/duds. Of course this isn't for everyone, and there is a whopping sense of diminishing returns after, say £180. But it's not the cheapest of productions - years spent as an apprentice and the actual time picking/shaping/grading a cleft can't really find many shortcuts.

There is something a bit sad that no bat will last forever (I once thought (justified!) spending a fair bit on a bat as I'd take great pride in Dan Jnr wielding it (as I did my Dad's old bat- albeit in the garden) though soon learnt that might not be the case!).

The current vogue of bat inflation is a big worry, and something we as a market should work towards restricting. Sadly (IMO Value-less/cynical) brands like Spartan/Hammer black/GN Legend should not be encouraged.

A very well made point.

I'd add Salix in there, without doubt. No doubt there will be cat calls for my head and a few will scream and scream.
Salix are (as many of the other brands you've mentioned) laughing in their tea cups each time they sell a bat for their inflated prices. You could add Uzi to that. They run (what appears to be) a very similar MO as Hammer and charge a small mortgage for a bat with their stickers (where is the value?).

The great news for them is that there are enough people out there willing to pay for (insert invisible value here).

Whilst there are a healthy number in the queue they will charge. However, it does give us something to look at whilst we are walking home with an equally good bat and pocket FULL of change.

Dave said it. Buy a decent bat, spend the rest on coaching.


Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6
 

Advertise on CBF