Interesting video on concaving
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procricket

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2015, 12:36:49 PM »

The most logical way to eliminate the variation of willow stiffness would be to produce the bat shapes in an homogenous material. that way you can directly correlate spacial dimensions to stiffness. That can then be modelled in the computer.

Already done mate...

Streaky through Loughborough did many a test way over my head but i'm sure he will share.

It all starts with just a pressed handled cleft oh the stiffness.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 12:42:01 PM by procricket B3 »
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Bambooman

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2015, 12:43:09 PM »

Already done mate...

Streaky through Loughborough did many a test way over my head but i'm sure he will share.

It all starts with just a pressed handled cleft.

Interesting, played about with it a bit myself actually but couldn't really be construed as valid research.

Beachcricket

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2015, 01:07:00 PM »

The most logical way to eliminate the variation of willow stiffness would be to produce the bat shapes in an homogenous material. that way you can directly correlate spacial dimensions to stiffness. That can then be modelled in the computer.

Willow isn't though, so you may find a correlation but as you know that doesn't imply causation. Anyone who's actually broken out some tools and worked Willow will know that no 2 clefts are the same.
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Bambooman

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2015, 01:57:01 PM »

Willow isn't though, so you may find a correlation but as you know that doesn't imply causation. Anyone who's actually broken out some tools and worked Willow will know that no 2 clefts are the same.

Yes but if you want to eliminate the variability of willow in order to focus specifically on geometric stiffness it's the only practical way. And quite a simple study to undertake provided you have the software

Beachcricket

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2015, 02:39:42 PM »

How would you then compare the results of a homogenous material to Willow? Or are you saying that it would be useful as information for further theory?
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tushar sehgal

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2015, 03:00:44 PM »

Here is an idea, forget science  :D

Get a few bats of similar weight, middle position etc have one concaved, one not concaved and one with a high spine (like Vantage Emerald or H4L tempo) then set the bowling to enable you to play drives (cover or on drives) and see what happens....nets for a cause :)..see if you feel more twisting in one kind of shape or not...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 03:02:54 PM by tushar sehgal »
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Bambooman

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2015, 03:01:55 PM »

How would you then compare the results of a homogenous material to Willow? Or are you saying that it would be useful as information for further theory?

Without going back and reading the thread. I thought the question was to examine the relationship between geometry and blade stiffness or have I got lost?

Beachcricket

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2015, 03:13:22 PM »

Without going back and reading the thread. I thought the question was to examine the relationship between geometry and blade stiffness or have I got lost?

I don't know now you've said that. I think the point I was making was that theories are great but they require evidence to support them if they're going to be used to sell a product. However the nature of the material used dictates that testing Willow objectively could be tricky. I don't like it when theory is quoted as fact, I do it myself sometimes and have to correct what I say. You should see some of the draft articles I've written, they're full of edits and disclaimers.

Always fun discussing these ideas though.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 03:45:03 PM by Beachcricket »
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Bambooman

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2015, 03:21:07 PM »

I don't know now you've said that. I think the point I was making was that theories are great but they require evidence to support them if they're going to be used to sell a product. However the nature of the material used dictates that testing Willow objectively could be tricky. I don't like it when theory is quoted as fact, I do it myself sometimes and have to correct what I say. You should some of the draft articles I've written, they're full of edits and disclaimers.

Always fun discussing these ideas though.

I think as we both know there are many myths floating around the art bat making, part of why it's an art to begin with of course. I also think many myths are used to some individuals advantage in marketing. There may therefore be a general unwillingness to bust them.

edge

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2015, 06:39:39 PM »

Without going back and reading the thread. I thought the question was to examine the relationship between geometry and blade stiffness or have I got lost?
This is what I was getting at, would be very easy to do on the computer to identify the best theoretical shape to use, and the batmaker's skill then comes into play when trying to achieve close to that using different clefts of willow.

@procricket B3 - I was actually thinking Streaky must have done something along these lines! Would be very interesting to hear about his reasearch if he's willing to share a little.
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Bambooman

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2015, 08:38:20 PM »

This is what I was getting at, would be very easy to do on the computer to identify the best theoretical shape to use, and the batmaker's skill then comes into play when trying to achieve close to that using different clefts of willow.

@procricket B3 - I was actually thinking Streaky must have done something along these lines! Would be very interesting to hear about his reasearch if he's willing to share a little.
I would be very surprised if B3 were willing to share their intellectual property. Very few bat makers have CAD models of the bats they produce and I think it unlikely the entire forum would be willing to sign an NDA :)

procricket

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2015, 08:39:53 PM »

I would be very surprised if B3 were willing to share their intellectual property. Very few bat makers have CAD models of the bats they produce and I think it unlikely the entire forum would be willing to sign an NDA :)

Streaky will chat about his findings when he has time i have made him aware .
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Bambooman

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Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2015, 08:47:02 PM »

Streaky will chat about his findings when he has time i have made him aware .
Fair play to you!

The Doctor

Re: Interesting video on concaving
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2015, 10:26:26 PM »

Very interesting topic thus far and love the fact that people are talking and discussing bat shapes and how it affects the bats performance.

For me it is quite simple and Chris did mention it a few times in the video, only reason to concave is to reduce weight whilst still maintaining a visually big bat. There is absolutely no evidence; especially in the paper that he refers too that concaving increases the structural integrity. The reference to a bridge did make me laugh a little. Bridges and Bats, the only thing that they have in common is the B.... One is a static load whilst the other is a dynamic impact. I'm afraid the majority of the video is marketing and marketing alone, which is done quite a lot by the big boys.......


I think all the comments have merit in this thread- the first is about shape and optimising that shape to get the maximum performance and the other is about the willow, and maximising the material to get maximum performance.

What I would do is this;

Calculate the optimum bat shape with a homogenous material - that will take the natural variation in material out of the equation and we could say that design A is superior  (CoR) to design B for a given impact position, given a uniform weight and swing speed.

 The next question I would ask is that what makes design A superior, and would design A still be superior to B, if the ball impacted in a different position. I think the answer to that would be no, and therefore there is no optimum bat shape, and each player (both amateur and Professional) would have an optimum bat shape. This is where the 1271 shape comes into its own as it has a very large middle, and excellent CoR all the way up the blade. However this is not the Eureka bat shape as it would be too heavy using the average density for the majority of cricket players. Therefore you would need to calculate each person’s optimum bat design to get the most out of the cleft and have the facility to manufacture bespoke bats…….. .

The second aspect is the material used and is cleft A better than cleft B. There are visual indicators which can indicate whether a cleft A will play better than cleft B, but as willow is natural you will always get a natural variation irrespective of these indicators. Again, this is where the skill of the bat maker comes into play to make sure that they optimise the performance of each cleft, making an average cleft good, a good cleft great and a great cleft phenomenal – this is all done in the pressing.

Streaky
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