Topic: Sri Lanka vs England test series (Read 87395 times)

Manormanic · « **Reply #225 on:** November 06, 2018, 04:47:54 PM »

That rather evidences a famous quote regarding lies and statistics...

Thing with Jonny is, he spent a lot of time down the order batting with the tail, and plays for the team. You'll see a disproportionate number of dismissals batting with ten and Jack playing big shots...

Rob580 · « **Reply #226 on:** November 06, 2018, 04:56:08 PM »

Hence my use of opinion on his technique to support the statistical evidence...

All I'm saying is, he's not averaging 50+ and holding every chance & half chance, so it's not like he's absolutely undroppable. If someone comes along who proves he's a better keeper and is good enough to be in the side on batting, then why not give him a shot. Might free Jonny up to become the batsman we all know he's capable of being, which I hope we can all agree is a lot better than he has shown in Tests thus far (a couple of sparking innings aside)

LateBloomer · « **Reply #227 on:** November 06, 2018, 05:12:51 PM »

Have to say that although I am a big fan of Bairstow I do agree with @Rob580 in that he has not made himself undroppable in either facet of his game

I don't entirely buy the giving wicket away with the tail theory either as this has been a characteristic of the lower order batsman for as long as I can remember. Prior still averaged 40 being a lot more aggressive than Bairstow without ever getting a chance in the top 5.

I think YJB really has to decide what his role is and quickly. And then nail that down.

Manormanic · « **Reply #228 on:** November 06, 2018, 05:22:26 PM »

I think there is a pretty big difference between Priors situation coming in at 350-5 against demoralised bowlers and Bairstows's regular rear guards. That said, I'm not opposed to Foakes keeping and Bairstow batting higher up the order.

csnew · « **Reply #229 on:** November 06, 2018, 06:12:42 PM »

Got a seriously generous match referee allowing stokes to get away with hitting his bat into the playing surface! Don�t think many other sides would�ve got away with that

LateBloomer · « **Reply #230 on:** November 06, 2018, 06:15:08 PM »

Quote from: Manormanic on November 06, 2018, 05:22:26 PM

I think there is a pretty big difference between Priors situation coming in at 350-5 against demoralised bowlers and Bairstows's regular rear guards. That said, I'm not opposed to Foakes keeping and Bairstow batting higher up the order.

Granted

My point is that he hasn't nailed down a role. Is he a dasher who can score quickly with the tail and take the gloves? Or a top 5 bat capable of scoring daddy tons?

You are probably the best qualified on this forum to form an opinion - what would you do to get the best out of him?

SOULMAN1012 · « **Reply #231 on:** November 06, 2018, 06:47:05 PM »

The history of the game shows very few allrounders have both parts of there game on fire at the same time and modern day batsmen/keepers are in my mind classed as all rounders, flintoff tended to have one better than the other and they switched, stokes the same and even back to Botham.
Personally I know as much as he want to keep his strongest asset is his batting and foakes strongest asset is his keeping, in test match cricket the weakest of both disciplines for me is Butler, although arguable man of the series vs India and has certainly improved since his last stint at test match cricket.
So for me to for YJB in he either replaces Rashid or a butler. England will never drop Stokes

Secondary is depending how he bowls Ali for Denley should be thought about long and hard as personally don�t think there is much between them in the bowling department and Denley has always been a longer format top order bat

edge · « **Reply #232 on:** November 06, 2018, 06:49:32 PM »

Quote from: Manormanic on November 06, 2018, 04:47:54 PM

That rather evidences a famous quote regarding lies and statistics...

Thing with Jonny is, he spent a lot of time down the order batting with the tail, and plays for the team. You'll see a disproportionate number of dismissals batting with ten and Jack playing big shots...

I'll go there... Bairstow's played 18 test innings over 11 games in 2018, averaging 26.88. In those 18 innings he's been the 6th or earlier wicket to fall 16 times, the two occasions he batted longer than that both being in the same game in Auckland. Given that the fall of the 6th wicket normally means one of Moeen/Woakes/Curran coming in, he's not even regularly batting with the tail - never mind giving his wicket away because of it. You can see why the question's being asked.

Manormanic · « **Reply #233 on:** November 06, 2018, 07:22:09 PM »

Quote from: LateBloomer on November 06, 2018, 06:15:08 PM

You are probably the best qualified on this forum to form an opinion - what would you do to get the best out of him?

Thats a tough one to answer - I've been pondering for the last twenty minutes and, accepting that my first reaction* is not going to happen under any conceivable circumstances, even now am not certain of this but...

At the root of the issue seems to me to be that Jonny doesn't feel like he's had a fair shake in the past - whatever anyone here may think, you can see why he may perceive it that way, given how much time he spent as 12th man, thrown in without match prep for ad hoc tests, and constantly the extra wheel in the one day side. He therefore likes the reassurance of having two roles, and has worked incredibly hard to bring his much weaker suit up to a level where this has only been a discussion because of the perception that we need him to bat higher than the gloves allow, and now because we have a "proper" keeper who can hold up his end with the bat.

So, there are a lot of factors here - not least the fact that we have one of the top four a certain pick, and potentially six or seven players who would ideally bat six or seven. His best position for Yorkshire/in first class cricket has been batting at five whilst keeping. That has never really been a feasible bet in international cricket - even Sangakkara was reduced to mortality when he was asked to combine - so the options are combine roles and bat him six or seven, ask him to convert to an opener, or bat him at five (Joe having a sinecure on four). My view? His height means that keeping wicket is going to shorten his career, and Foakes is a definite upgrade with the gloves (and a different type of player in the middle order, which will be valuable going forward), so I would go with a batting only role - and that would be at five long term, with a pitch akin to we want him to be the player KP used to be - play proper innings, but dominate the opposition.

The only problem is who gets dropped!

*if you've read this far and are curious as to the first reaction - it was "give him the captaincy". Obviously not going to happen, but would actually play well with his personality and good understanding of the nuance of the game, lets face it, even if we think Root is improving tactically, the fact is his batting is being affected...

Johnny · « **Reply #234 on:** November 06, 2018, 07:31:56 PM »

It's a doozy isn't it!

One of our no.6's really does need to take the bull by the horns and turn themselves into an opener or no.3

edge · « **Reply #235 on:** November 06, 2018, 08:14:45 PM »

Yep, problem is that we've got three number 5/6s - Stokes, Bairstow and Buttler. So one of them has to be promoted or dropped, and if promoted probably to the top 3 as Root (justifiably) wants 4. Could you drop one of the top 3 to make way? Probably, none of them are all that secure at present even if Burns is obviously likely to get a run to prove himself.
Stokes is probably the best technician of the three and pre-mBargogate had been getting more consistent, but since returning his test form hasn't been great. Plus do you really want to make life harder for your key all-rounder? Hard to see him getting dropped for a specialist batsman.
Buttler's been the best player in the team since returning in the summer, so right now must be pretty secure in his place, even if he would likely be most vulnerable to a run of poor form. If he bats top 3 then Ed Smith really has gone maverick.
Bairstow is the only one of the three with much experience playing as a specialist bat, and could make a claim to having the best overall test record, so would seem the obvious candidate for promotion. On the other hand, his form is lousy and has looked to be developing technical flaws - bowled or caught behind the wicket in every test innings this summer. Would have to be persuaded as has a bit of a record of throwing a wobbly if he doesn't get the spot he wants.

Either way... someone's getting stiffed if Bairstow's fit for the next game - second innings could be vital!

Manormanic · « **Reply #236 on:** November 06, 2018, 09:12:41 PM »

I think that encapsulates the issue, though I think we're all missing the fact that we're playing six bowlers at the moment - as much as I can see why that might continue in the shorter term, I doubt it is the plan from next Summer on. Either Ali would drop to eight or, more likely, drop out altogether (I suspect given the winter we'll find ourselves enamoured of Leach as the slow bowler).

Still leaves an issue of who bats three mind.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #237 on:** November 06, 2018, 09:20:34 PM »

Burns - deserves a run
Jennings - not good enough
Moeen - lol.. he�s a 7+ who also bowls spin
Root - 4/5, our best bat.. wants 4 so it�s his
Bairstow - one of our best domestic avg and shown he can do it but has developed some bad white ball technical and mental habits. Needs to break them ASAP but IMO, I�d say �Johnny lad, you�re my 5 for the ashes and then evaluate after that (needs to avg 40+ )
Stokes - all rounder and wants six
Foakes - can�t knock the lad after today and is the best keeper
Don�t care about bowling but pick the best bowlers.. literally don�t care if they score runs or not

Dropped is buttler but tell him to go score runs and if anyone at 5/6/7 dips below 40 avg in test cricket.. in he comes

Top 3 is our issue as there doesn�t appear to be anything coming though with the right technical or mental attributes. Not a shock given the primacy or white ball. Hammeed was the great hope but he�s literally fallen off a cliff . I�d just tell the counties to produce Some specialist test openers and enusre the structure is there to promote that style of player as much as the white ball dashers

edge · « **Reply #238 on:** November 06, 2018, 09:27:13 PM »

Quote from: Manormanic on November 06, 2018, 09:12:41 PM

I think that encapsulates the issue, though I think we're all missing the fact that we're playing six bowlers at the moment - as much as I can see why that might continue in the shorter term, I doubt it is the plan from next Summer on. Either Ali would drop to eight or, more likely, drop out altogether (I suspect given the winter we'll find ourselves enamoured of Leach as the slow bowler).

Still leaves an issue of who bats three mind.

I doubt the three spinners policy will make it to the West Indies, never mind next summer! If Leach goes well one potential way out of the too many batsmen problem is Bairstow in for Rashid, but Bayliss/Root do seem to love maximum bowling options.

One thing to consider if you are YJB... if Jennings has a poor tour his slot will be open, but in that scenario I'd bet good money on Roy making the Windies tour...

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #239 on:** November 06, 2018, 09:28:43 PM »

Quote from: edge on November 06, 2018, 09:27:13 PM

I doubt the three spinners policy will make it to the West Indies, never mind next summer! If Leach goes well one potential way out of the too many batsmen problem is Bairstow in for Rashid, but Bayliss/Root do seem to love maximum bowling options.

One thing to consider if you are YJB... if Jennings has a poor tour his slot will be open, but in that scenario I'd bet good money on Roy making the Windies tour...

Bairstow is quite simply not good enough to open or go 3. Neither is Roy

Author Topic: Sri Lanka vs England test series (Read 87395 times)

Manormanic

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

Rob580

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

LateBloomer

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

Manormanic

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

csnew

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

LateBloomer

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

SOULMAN1012

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

edge

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

Manormanic

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

Johnny

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

edge

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

Manormanic

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

ProCricketer1982

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

edge

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series

ProCricketer1982

Re: Sri Lanka vs England test series