Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
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ppccopener

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2018, 11:18:29 AM »
so many bats these days and breaking JK in comparison to previously, ive had 3 break, as in break so bat they are unuseable, and one my mate used broke too, that's 4 between us in 2 seasons

do you think the quality of balls these days in leagues and grade 1 multi grain bats simply don't mix? this is what Andrew Kember says in the video on their website.

if we want longevity, should we go for less grains. ive just picked up a Warsop off ebay and it has 6 grains only...but it looks like it could last this one

 :)

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SAFC2403

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2018, 11:46:42 AM »
Quote from: ppccopener on October 18, 2018, 11:18:29 AM
so many bats these days and breaking JK in comparison to previously, ive had 3 break, as in break so bat they are unuseable, and one my mate used broke too, that's 4 between us in 2 seasons

do you think the quality of balls these days in leagues and grade 1 multi grain bats simply don't mix? this is what Andrew Kember says in the video on their website.

if we want longevity, should we go for less grains. ive just picked up a Warsop off ebay and it has 6 grains only...but it looks like it could last this one

 :)

I've never broken a bat - My last 3 bats were a GN longbow 5*, a GN dynadrive and most recently a bat from Paul Aldred.

Guess i'm never at the crease long enough to break one...... :D
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WalkingWicket37

Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2018, 12:19:23 PM »
Quote from: JK Lewis on October 18, 2018, 11:11:20 AM
Couple of batmakers I know prefer to say that a bat should last for 2000 runs, 2500 runs or whatever. I guess it covers them a little better. Makes sense really, I mean I only play 12-15 games a season but others may play 30 or 40. Some of us bat longer and harder than others too of course!

2000 runs you say.
If I play 40 games a season, my current stick should see me through to 2058...
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Kulli

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2018, 12:30:49 PM »
Quote from: WalkingWicket37 on October 18, 2018, 12:19:23 PM
2000 runs you say.
If I play 40 games a season, my current stick should see me through to 2058...

I believe they say it should last 2000 runs or 2000 posts on CBF, whichever comes first.
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JK Lewis

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2018, 01:35:44 PM »
Quote from: ppccopener on October 18, 2018, 11:18:29 AM
so many bats these days and breaking JK in comparison to previously, ive had 3 break, as in break so bat they are unuseable, and one my mate used broke too, that's 4 between us in 2 seasons

do you think the quality of balls these days in leagues and grade 1 multi grain bats simply don't mix? this is what Andrew Kember says in the video on their website.

if we want longevity, should we go for less grains. ive just picked up a Warsop off ebay and it has 6 grains only...but it looks like it could last this one

 :)

I think they do break more than they used to yes. Personally - and I know there's lots of debate on this - I think that it is caused by a combination of overdried willow, harder, lower quality balls and softer pressing. I hedge my bets a little bit to be honest, but I honesty don't think there is one single cause. We live in a disposable society so to some extent it is the same with bats as frying pans or socks. But, pans and socks don't cost £400. A clubmate of mine uses a Dukes bat that is shaped like an SS Jumbo. The thing is about 30 years old and there's barely a mark or crack on it. You can't hit the ball off the square with it, but it will last for ever. You pays yer money, you takes yer choice...
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SOULMAN1012

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2018, 01:51:20 PM »
Looking forward to reading this thread with interest, and great to see a bat maker doing his best to educate people in a common myth,

Personally I haven’t not purchased a G1 £400 bat in ages but I have picked up multi grain lower G2 and G3 bats as well as wider grain G2 & G3 bats.

I do still have some top end bats form Kember, TK and GN and performance wise I personally do not notice a real difference as a well pressed 4 grain bat will perform as well as a 20 grain bat in my opinion
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JK Lewis

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2018, 02:00:31 PM »
Quote from: SOULMAN1012 on October 18, 2018, 01:51:20 PM
Looking forward to reading this thread with interest, and great to see a bat maker doing his best to educate people in a common myth,

Personally I haven’t not purchased a G1 £400 bat in ages but I have picked up multi grain lower G2 and G3 bats as well as wider grain G2 & G3 bats.

I do still have some top end bats form Kember, TK and GN and performance wise I personally do not notice a real difference as a well pressed 4 grain bat will perform as well as a 20 grain bat in my opinion

This is quite an interesting side point, from a cleft / batmaking point of view. A 4 grain bat will likely be a 5 grain cleft. It could be 6 but probably 5. The thing is, using Wrights grading structure which - like it or not - is the Gold Standard, a 5 grain cleft cannot be graded higher than G3. So, if I cut down wide grain trees, however well they have been maintained and however good the timber looks, I will have great difficulty in selling the clefts as G2 or G1.

But, you may well go to a shop and buy a 4 grain bat as G2 or even G1. It could be beautiful, blemish free sap wood and you're happy to pay the dough. My point is, for what it's worth, that bat likely didn't start off as G2 or G1.
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SOULMAN1012

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2018, 02:14:05 PM »
Quote from: JK Lewis on October 18, 2018, 02:00:31 PM
This is quite an interesting side point, from a cleft / batmaking point of view. A 4 grain bat will likely be a 5 grain cleft. It could be 6 but probably 5. The thing is, using Wrights grading structure which - like it or not - is the Gold Standard, a 5 grain cleft cannot be graded higher than G3. So, if I cut down wide grain trees, however well they have been maintained and however good the timber looks, I will have great difficulty in selling the clefts as G2 or G1.

But, you may well go to a shop and buy a 4 grain bat as G2 or even G1. It could be beautiful, blemish free sap wood and you're happy to pay the dough. My point is, for what it's worth, that bat likely didn't start off as G2 or G1.

I totally agree in the grading really is pointless in that some offer G1+, player grading or what ever, it’s just a way that could generate a way to stretch further profit margins from the best looking willow clefts.

Currently knocking in a 5 grain GN ultimate and it’s performance, depth of sound and ultimately ping is superb, because it has been pressed very, very well
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six and out

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2018, 04:20:44 PM »
Quote from: JK Lewis on October 18, 2018, 01:35:44 PM
I think they do break more than they used to yes. Personally - and I know there's lots of debate on this - I think that it is caused by a combination of overdried willow, harder, lower quality balls and softer pressing. I hedge my bets a little bit to be honest, but I honesty don't think there is one single cause. We live in a disposable society so to some extent it is the same with bats as frying pans or socks. But, pans and socks don't cost £400. A clubmate of mine uses a Dukes bat that is shaped like an SS Jumbo. The thing is about 30 years old and there's barely a mark or crack on it. You can't hit the ball off the square with it, but it will last for ever. You pays yer money, you takes yer choice...

Really interesting thread, thanks Justin for taking the time to put it together.

The 2000 runs comment is interesting... I reckon I am about that, on average I buy a new expensive match bat every 2/3 seasons. And i am facing a rock hard new ball every weekend.

Regards why bats aren't lasting as long, another big reason I think is the general care people take of their bats these days I just don't think is like it used to be. I speak to guys at my club when they buy a new bat and they are using it straight out the packet or saying that the shop knocked it in a little so that's enough etc... then they seem surprised when it starts cracking!!
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JK Lewis

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2018, 05:22:50 PM »
Quote from: six and out on October 18, 2018, 04:20:44 PM
Really interesting thread, thanks Justin for taking the time to put it together.

The 2000 runs comment is interesting... I reckon I am about that, on average I buy a new expensive match bat every 2/3 seasons. And i am facing a rock hard new ball every weekend.

Regards why bats aren't lasting as long, another big reason I think is the general care people take of their bats these days I just don't think is like it used to be. I speak to guys at my club when they buy a new bat and they are using it straight out the packet or saying that the shop knocked it in a little so that's enough etc... then they seem surprised when it starts cracking!!

Yes, I agree completely. It is a little bit chicken/egg I think. We don't put the hours in to help extend the lifetime of a bat, in part because we don't think it will last long anyway. I have to say as well though that my dear old mum was much more tolerant of bats being knocked in than my wife has turned out to be!
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InternalTraining

Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2018, 06:19:32 PM »
Bats that are going to break, show signs of weakness early on in their lifetime whether it is overdried blade or weak handle.  My trusty (retired) CA lasted 5.5 sessions and still good to go. I did take care of it in terms of gluing and oiling.

I think it also depends on how you use a bat. I don't tap my bats and I certainly don't lean on them (I see some batsmen using their bats like tent poles). So, no tapping, no leaning, hitting from the middle, and certainly no lending bats to bat beggars. I expect light bats to break whereas heavy bats (2-11 and up) tend to age better but handles might give out.
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WalkingWicket37

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2018, 09:22:15 PM »
Quote from: InternalTraining on October 18, 2018, 06:19:32 PM
Bats that are going to break, show signs of weakness early on in their lifetime whether it is overdried blade or weak handle.  My trusty (retired) CA lasted 5.5 sessions and still good to go. I did take care of it in terms of gluing and oiling.

I think it also depends on how you use a bat. I don't tap my bats and I certainly don't lean on them (I see some batsmen using their bats like tent poles). So, no tapping, no leaning, hitting from the middle, and certainly no lending bats to bat beggars. I expect light bats to break whereas heavy bats (2-11 and up) tend to age better but handles might give out.

That's the part most will struggle most with...
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SD

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2018, 11:24:04 PM »
I would suggest that those not using the middle of the bat aren't doing so out of choice.

Very interesting experiment.  Conventional wisdom - at least where I grew up playing the game - is that narrow grain bats open up quicker but delaminate quicker and that wider grain bats take longer to open up but have greater longevity when they do but, more recently, removing move moisture from clefts to produce bigger bats seems to have reduced the life-span of all bats.
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prim0pyr0

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Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2018, 06:46:59 AM »
Quote from: six and out on October 18, 2018, 04:20:44 PM
Really interesting thread, thanks Justin for taking the time to put it together.

The 2000 runs comment is interesting... I reckon I am about that, on average I buy a new expensive match bat every 2/3 seasons. And i am facing a rock hard new ball every weekend.

Regards why bats aren't lasting as long, another big reason I think is the general care people take of their bats these days I just don't think is like it used to be. I speak to guys at my club when they buy a new bat and they are using it straight out the packet or saying that the shop knocked it in a little so that's enough etc... then they seem surprised when it starts cracking!!
People use scuff sheets now, never did previously.
Youre right about expectations changing on how long bats shld last. I think ppl blast the ball around more, hit harder more often prehaps.
I do recall bats breaking 20 years ago from toe cracks, stumps too(havnt seen that in awhile)
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JK Lewis

Re: Narrow Grain vs Wide Grain - Amateur Science
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2018, 08:14:21 PM »
Right, about time for a follow up I think. As you can see in the photos below, the airdrying has slowed down now. Both clefts have lost over a kilo, interestingly over the past couple of weeks the Narrow grain (NG) cleft has lost a little more than the Wide Grain (WG) cleft - kind of catching up in a way. I guess this is because weight is lost from the outside in, so weight loss slows as the moisture has to be drawn from deeper within the wood.

WG cleft


NG cleft



Anyway, time to move to the next stage. Both clefts are now in the kiln, the WG cleft is at 70% of its original weight, the NG cleft is at 74%. I have placed them in the stack close together as you can see, so that the drying conditions for both are as similar as possible. I also measured the moisture levels, going into the kiln the WG cleft showed 20%, the NG cleft showed 22%. I am aiming to dry the stack to 10% moisture, +/- 2%.





So, I'll be firing it up tomorrow, and hope to be able to report the dried results in a month or so. All being well we can then move towards a couple of bats in the new year. Any comments or questions welcomed as always.
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