England tour of West Indies
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alexhilly1492

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #120 on: January 22, 2019, 06:31:17 PM »
Quote from: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 22, 2019, 06:25:05 PM
Pinch hitter.. in tests ... it really is moving to being two ODI innings

How is warner any different?

He has 20 odd test 100s
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ProCricketer1982

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #121 on: January 22, 2019, 06:39:45 PM »
Quote from: alexhilly1492 on January 22, 2019, 06:31:17 PM
How is warner any different?

He has 20 odd test 100s

You’re comparing moeeen to warner !?? Ok

How many of these types actually do any good ?  Not
Many
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 06:41:17 PM by RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie »
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ppccopener

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #122 on: January 22, 2019, 06:42:40 PM »
Quote from: alexhilly1492 on January 22, 2019, 06:31:17 PM
How is warner any different?

He has 20 odd test 100s

He may be a horrible bloke, in fact he is...but he is an exceptionally talented ball striker. Now and again you get them at the top of the order but it's few and far between. Jayasuriya, Warner, Sehwag you could group together.

Not taking anything away from those 3 but most of their cricket is or was on batsman friendly wickets with balls with small seams.

With all the Hooha about Warner what is getting missed is he is a real talent.

For us to produce an English player who could bat like those 3, well I can't think of one who was successful at 1,2 or 3. The only name I could think of would be Wayne Larkins who our younger members won't know who he was. He did it at County level,not international.
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edge

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #123 on: January 22, 2019, 09:56:24 PM »
Quote from: Mister Le Chiffre on January 22, 2019, 04:28:30 PM
Sorry but where has this obsession of 6 bowlers come from? 5 bowlers is generally a luxury if you have good all rounder(we do in Stokes). Pick the best 4 bowlers plus Stokes. None of this nonsense of various bits and pieces "all rounders"
Pretty much fully on board with this, other than in very unusual circumstances 5 bowlers is plenty, 6 just results in one or two not bowling any overs - as in SL. All very well saying we have loads of all-rounders but we don't really, we have one and a load of bowlers who bat well.

If we really wanted to play 6 bowlers however, the openers obviously stay... So the man to miss out would logically be Bairstow, who was last in. Don't hear many calling for that!
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SD

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #124 on: January 22, 2019, 10:01:59 PM »
Quote from: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 22, 2019, 06:22:15 PM
Moeen and Curran front line bats ?? Jesus Christ we over rate lower order hitters

Curran comes with the caveat I mentioned.

Ali bats at 3 in FC cricket with 20 first class hundreds and has test hundreds for England batting at 4 and 5. His record for England is rather better than a considerable number of players picked as specialist batsman despite having come in at 8 more than another position.  Not bat for a lower order hitter
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Manormanic

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #125 on: January 22, 2019, 10:05:49 PM »
Quote from: edge on January 22, 2019, 09:56:24 PM
Pretty much fully on board with this, other than in very unusual circumstances 5 bowlers is plenty, 6 just results in one or two not bowling any overs - as in SL. All very well saying we have loads of all-rounders but we don't really, we have one and a load of bowlers who bat well.

If we really wanted to play 6 bowlers however, the openers obviously stay... So the man to miss out would logically be Bairstow, who was last in. Don't hear many calling for that!

Not sure why you'd drop the guy who just made a brilliant hundred - as evidenced by Foakes keeping his place - but I recognise that you're just engaged in a spot of light trolling to pass the time. :)

But seriously, six bowlers is not as daft as it might sound.  If we were to go for Anderson, Curran, Broad, Stokes, Ali and Rashid you have three genuine all rounders plus two who can more than hold a bat.  It allows you to manage the workload of Anderson and Stokes, who are key players, and to tolerate the fact that Rashid is primarily a second innings bowler.  Your only issue would be who to drop - but given that Jennings inspires no confidence the question might really be who to use as your maek shift opener!
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edge

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2019, 10:11:15 PM »
Quote from: Manormanic on January 22, 2019, 10:05:49 PM
Not sure why you'd drop the guy who just made a brilliant hundred - as evidenced by Foakes keeping his place - but I recognise that you're just engaged in a spot of light trolling to pass the time. :)
Think you've misread me there chum, possibly wilfully ;) Was rather making the point that no-one would suggest dropping Bairstow after said hundred.

Trouble with six bowlers is that one of them ends up not bowling.
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SD

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2019, 10:14:28 PM »
In a hypothetical world where Sam Curran didn't get injured for the 3rd test is Sri Lanka, I would suggest that the only change for tomorrow would be Broad coming back in with Rashid and Leech to fight for the last place.  The ability to pick 6 front line bowlers or batting down to 9 is a pretty enviable problem to have as a captain
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Manormanic

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #128 on: January 22, 2019, 11:28:18 PM »
Quote from: edge on January 22, 2019, 10:11:15 PM
Trouble with six bowlers is that one of them ends up not bowling.
If they do, it's probably because you've won handsomely.
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Mister Le Chiffre

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #129 on: January 22, 2019, 11:46:53 PM »
Quote from: Manormanic on January 22, 2019, 10:05:49 PM
Not sure why you'd drop the guy who just made a brilliant hundred - as evidenced by Foakes keeping his place - but I recognise that you're just engaged in a spot of light trolling to pass the time. :)

But seriously, six bowlers is not as daft as it might sound.  If we were to go for Anderson, Curran, Broad, Stokes, Ali and Rashid you have three genuine all rounders plus two who can more than hold a bat.  It allows you to manage the workload of Anderson and Stokes, who are key players, and to tolerate the fact that Rashid is primarily a second innings bowler.  Your only issue would be who to drop - but given that Jennings inspires no confidence the question might really be who to use as your maek shift opener!
Sorry but the only genuine all rounder we have is Ben Stokes. Ali's getting more and more incompetent with the bat with every passing innings. As for the third all rounder Curran's primary role is the third seamer and from what I've seen so far he's no better than Woakes in foreign conditions.
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Mister Le Chiffre

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #130 on: January 22, 2019, 11:52:19 PM »
Quote from: ppccopener on January 22, 2019, 06:42:40 PM
He may be a horrible bloke, in fact he is...but he is an exceptionally talented ball striker. Now and again you get them at the top of the order but it's few and far between. Jayasuriya, Warner, Sehwag you could group together.

Not taking anything away from those 3 but most of their cricket is or was on batsman friendly wickets with balls with small seams.

With all the Hooha about Warner what is getting missed is he is a real talent.

For us to produce an English player who could bat like those 3, well I can't think of one who was successful at 1,2 or 3. The only name I could think of would be Wayne Larkins who our younger members won't know who he was. He did it at County level,not international.
If the pitches that Warner, Jayasuriya and Sehwag thrived on where so batting friendly why didn't the even more talented players like Clarke, Sangakkara and Tendulkar(all fluent stroke makers) score at a similar rate? The simple reason is the likes of Warner, Jayasuriya and Sehwag make pitches appear flatter than they really are. They take the bowlers souls.
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Manormanic

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #131 on: January 23, 2019, 06:46:55 AM »
Quote from: Mister Le Chiffre on January 22, 2019, 11:46:53 PM
Sorry but the only genuine all rounder we have is Ben Stokes. Ali's getting more and more incompetent with the bat with every passing innings. As for the third all rounder Curran's primary role is the third seamer and from what I've seen so far he's no better than Woakes in foreign conditions.

Both average over 30 in tests, which is a pretty good indicator. I'm going to stick with my original definition.
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alexhilly1492

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #132 on: January 23, 2019, 07:13:57 AM »
Quote from: RPC/Blueroom Cricket - Adie on January 22, 2019, 06:39:45 PM
You’re comparing moeeen to warner !?? Ok

How many of these types actually do any good ?  Not
Many

No, I’m saying it’s daft to dismiss the idea of a pinch hitter.

Moeen ain’t the answer, as proven by his ill fated trip to the top of the order in the uae
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Mister Le Chiffre

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #133 on: January 23, 2019, 09:28:10 AM »
Quote from: Manormanic on January 23, 2019, 06:46:55 AM
Both average over 30 in tests, which is a pretty good indicator. I'm going to stick with my original definition.
A true all rounder averages more with the bat than the ball, Moeen does not. Curran's been around 5 minutes so I'd take his record with a pinch of salt, heck he's yet to even register a FC century...

Stokes premier all rounder and forum favourite Woakes is the only other genuine all rounder
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Seniorplayer

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Re: England tour of West Indies
« Reply #134 on: January 23, 2019, 09:32:54 AM »
Quote from: ppccopener on January 22, 2019, 06:42:40 PM
He may be a horrible bloke, in fact he is...but he is an exceptionally talented ball striker. Now and again you get them at the top of the order but it's few and far between. Jayasuriya, Warner, Sehwag you could group together.

Not taking anything away from those 3 but most of their cricket is or was on batsman friendly wickets with balls with small seams.

With all the Hooha about Warner what is getting missed is he is a real talent.

For us to produce an English player who could bat like those 3, well I can't think of one who was successful at 1,2 or 3. The only name I could think of would be Wayne Larkins who our younger members won't know who he was. He did it at County level,not international.
I can think of one who I watched  do it for England before he lost the sight of his right eye  in a road accident same county as  Wayne Larkins - Colin Milburn
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