England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
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ProCricketer1982

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #345 on: December 29, 2019, 10:28:27 PM »

System is encouraging and facilitating white ball players but I am sure there is red ball talent out there. Not everyone can play high-strike-rate cricket, there must be patient, slow and boring players out there who need a separate lane. Separate teams, separate captains.

PS: It is not just an England problem. Plenty of other cricketing nations have the same issue.

Every nation has the same issue because every nation is prioritising white ball. Hence the dearth of talent at test level and the weakness of the red ball game all around the world.  There are many many many ‘red ball’ players out there but where will they see idols? What format will they play and learn their game ? What pathway do they get ?

See the problem yet ?
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FattusCattus

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #346 on: December 29, 2019, 10:51:55 PM »

Except for the fact that both NZ and SA can produce more of a test XI than we can - so how does that work?
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InternalTraining

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #347 on: December 29, 2019, 10:59:04 PM »

Every nation has the same issue because every nation is prioritising white ball. Hence the dearth of talent at test level and the weakness of the red ball game all around the world.  There are many many many ‘red ball’ players out there but where will they see idols? What format will they play and learn their game ? What pathway do they get ?

See the problem yet ?

You are making my point: Separate lanes. You can call it "encouragement" or "prioritization". Many domestic circuits have 3-4 day cricket matches, so opportunity is there. If England is not doing it, they should start now. Get a new Test captain like Morgan who just plays Test, follow the same blue print as ODI journey to CWC 2019 win.

I repeat, there are plenty of red-ball cricketers out there (who suck at white-ball cricket). England's white-ball "prioritization" didn't make Alistair Cook a great white ball opener. Separate lanes ( for them ) are needed. Treat Test cricket as a "different" skill set, appoint captains who understand that. Give growth time and schedule games for seasons. People who run cricket understand all this.
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shadowlight

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #348 on: December 29, 2019, 11:03:07 PM »


PS: It is not just an England problem. Plenty of other cricketing nations have the same issue.

Agreed, but all of them have managed to deal with it better than England.  Majority of the teams have test only Or one day specialist and the board has ensured compensation accordingly.

India: Pujara, Rahane, Sharma, Saha
Aus: Paine, Lyon, Burns, Finch (one day)
Pak: Azhar Ali, Asad Safiq
SA: Elgar, Hamza
NZ: Raval, Watling, Neesham, Guptill (one day)

I think England missed a trick with both Hameed and Foakes, by asking them to change the batting style or they thought they had to score quickly.  If I remember correctly Hameed had a good start to county season until he ended up playing couple of one day games.
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shadowlight

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #349 on: December 29, 2019, 11:07:48 PM »

Except for the fact that both NZ and SA can produce more of a test XI than we can - so how does that work?

I would love to find out what kind of test teams both SA and NZ would have if the respective board had the same resources as ECB available to them.
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nivaga

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #350 on: December 30, 2019, 09:52:21 AM »

Big saving grace will be SA’s quota system. With Markram out Malan is likely the obvious pick, but that leaves them short of the quota again. So likely Bavuma (who’s a bit poo) comes in and one of him or vdD opens. If fit Lungi maybe even comes in for Nortje too.

Indeed  :(  The thing that would help SA balance this 'sensitive selection poser' would be if they had a decent test all rounder who ticked the 'black african box'.

A left field option would be to promote Quinton to open and hand Rudi Seconds the gloves (he fielded well in Markrams place).  VD Dussen (sadly) loses his (long deserved shot) to the more experienced Bavuma.  I think SA also have captaincy issues with du Plessis so a willingnessto change this may also help.  He shows moments of brilliance and innovation in captaincy but then misses the routine.
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Mister Le Chiffre

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #351 on: December 30, 2019, 10:12:26 AM »

Boucher said Pieter Malan will debut. Neither Bavuma or Ngidi are fit for the second Test. Also suggested Bavuma won't walk back into the side.
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ProCricketer1982

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #352 on: December 30, 2019, 10:14:49 AM »

You are making my point: Separate lanes. You can call it "encouragement" or "prioritization". Many domestic circuits have 3-4 day cricket matches, so opportunity is there. If England is not doing it, they should start now. Get a new Test captain like Morgan who just plays Test, follow the same blue print as ODI journey to CWC 2019 win.

I repeat, there are plenty of red-ball cricketers out there (who suck at white-ball cricket). England's white-ball "prioritization" didn't make Alistair Cook a great white ball opener. Separate lanes ( for them ) are needed. Treat Test cricket as a "different" skill set, appoint captains who understand that. Give growth time and schedule games for seasons. People who run cricket understand all this.

Oh I’m not debating the need for specialisation but the fact that people think there are a load of red ball players out there in county cricket or even amateur cricket just waiting. It’s been many many years of being fed 4 an over , win lose style batting/bowling.. the skills jut don’t exist outside the odd player who has made it despite the system.

You’re looking at a whole sale change both in formats, culture and of course financial compensation as you’d need to ensure the red ball specialist is rewarded equally to white ball to ensure that players pick their best path not the most rewarded one

If people who ran cricket understood this why hasn’t it happened ? White ball has been prioritised looooong before 2015 p, especially at county level .. hence why this generation is 28-30. The cook/broad/Anderson generation was the last NOT produced by this system.. hence bugger all coming through
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InternalTraining

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #353 on: December 30, 2019, 02:59:19 PM »

^ In such a scenario, the board has to make do with whoever (white-baller) shows aptitude for red-ball and pivot them to red-ball cricket. These changes take time and creating "lanes" is a worthwhile albeit long undertaking. I look at someone like Shai Hope and I'd build a team around that guy.
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Manormanic

Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #354 on: December 30, 2019, 07:11:54 PM »

As someone who watches more red ball English cricket than most, I think there is a point being missed here.

Tests are played over five days, no more than 90 per day (though seemingly 81 will do), mostly on old fashioned cricket wickets (ie either solid, go the distance roads, or one which peak on the second morning and deteriorate slowly from there).

Championship cricket is played at the ends of the year.  It is mostly played on either green seamers or hyper dry doctored pitches (Essex, Somerset, I'm looking at you).  There are as few as a dozen games a year on really top class decks (Scarborough, The Oval, Edgbaston, New Road if the flood waters are kind). 

What results is batsmen who, for the most part, reckon that a part of good technique is having a good go before the one with your name on it comes along and bowlers who, largely, favour control so that the one that inevitably does loads is on target over pace or real skills.

The sad thing is, six or seven years ago, we'd got our first class game to the level where it was played between almost test class sides on good pitches.   Ho hum...
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SOULMAN1012

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #355 on: December 30, 2019, 08:12:17 PM »

Wish Hameed would come back into form as really would like to see him and his style back in this England set up
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alexhilly1492

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #356 on: December 30, 2019, 08:22:06 PM »

Wish Hameed would come back into form as really would like to see him and his style back in this England set up

So do I now he's at Notts!!! We need a decent top order bat
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WalkingWicket37

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #357 on: December 30, 2019, 08:51:26 PM »

ESPN are reporting that Jack Leach is unlikely to be fit for the 2nd Test, with Bess likely to play if England decide they need a spinner.

It looks like Matt Parkinson has dropped down the pecking order somewhat. More alarmingly, in Leach's absence England have the choice of two blokes who couldn't hold down a place in their county sides.

It makes you realise how much we miss Moeen, now he's not available :(
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Bats_Entertainment

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #358 on: December 30, 2019, 09:01:33 PM »

ESPN are reporting that Jack Leach is unlikely to be fit for the 2nd Test, with Bess likely to play if England decide they need a spinner.

It looks like Matt Parkinson has dropped down the pecking order somewhat. More alarmingly, in Leach's absence England have the choice of two blokes who couldn't hold down a place in their county sides.

It makes you realise how much we miss Moeen, now he's not available :(

I doubt Moeen would hold down a place as a bowler in many county sides.
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Bats_Entertainment

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Re: England Tour of South Africa, Test ODI and T20
« Reply #359 on: December 30, 2019, 09:03:37 PM »

Wish Hameed would come back into form as really would like to see him and his style back in this England set up

Says something that you can be released by a county but 'missed' by England.
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