Keeley cricket and the industry generally
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jonny77

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #75 on: May 26, 2020, 09:26:06 AM »

you lot crack me up so many bat makers on here.

Moaning about if a CNC is a bit like saying Why do you drive a Car if you can walk everywhere.

😆 Have to agree. If you're dealing with larger volumes it's a necessity.
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jp2408

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #76 on: May 26, 2020, 09:26:13 AM »

Can I ask a genuine question to the bat makers/manufacturers/sponsors on the forum.

If Keeley/M&H (or whoever) are charging £650 for there very highest bat and you are charging say £300 quid less, is the difference the quality of willow they have had the pick of or the price they are putting their brand name on? Or both? Etc...

My guess is this is a simple business/distribution structure point.

You are a manufacturer/brand. The odds are the vast majority of your sales (if you are of any size) come through independent retailers rather than direct to consumer (D2C). If you sell products D2C at the same price that retailers are charging it has two impacts:

1) Your 'RRP' (a nonsense concept anyway) is suddenly completely unsupportable, as if you don't sell at that price, why would it have any basis in reality. This means that the whole selling tactic of 'discount to RRP' is suddenly extinguished for both yourself and your customers (retailers). You've also immediately chopped 20% or so off the maximum price that anyone could charge for your products, including you. Hardly great business sense.

2) You're now trying to attract the same customers (end consumers) that your far larger customers (retailers) are trying to attract. You are competing directly with them. There is therefore a substantial risk that retailers reduce their order volumes and/or stop trading with you entirely. So you might gain a few direct customers, but lose several massive orders from your customers that actually pay your bills. Again not great business sense.

The final point is opportunity - if you list your products on a pretty low cost website (which you need anyway for general brand purposes) at a price point that makes you crazy money but doesn't hack off your big customers, and people pay it - then happy days, why wouldn't you!
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edge

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #77 on: May 26, 2020, 09:30:38 AM »

You couldn't find any mention of handmade?

😂😂😂 Ok I missed that one! They don't have a section proclaiming their '100% hand made bats' or something like that though so where's the transparency problem? CNC use doesn't invalidate the hand work that is done, and they're not hiding the CNC.
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edge

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #78 on: May 26, 2020, 09:34:07 AM »

Good point Dan, if transparency/misleading customers is an issue anywhere it's with certain brands who don't make their own bats - far more dodgy things go on there than batmakers manufacturing methods!
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LEACHY48

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #79 on: May 26, 2020, 09:37:34 AM »

@DorsetDan

That post reinforced my point, there needs to be more transparency across the board, and this is just the first issue of many.
 
G1+ SUPER ULTRA RESERVE PRO edition willow is another,

Graded on performance is another.

Personally, I don't have a problem with people calling their bats handmade if they are CNCd but I do have an issue if the CNC process isn't advertised or at least transparent.

I have asked Tim what his process is, and he said every bat is handmade by him, no mention of a CNC.

That's the issue.

No other industry can you completely hide your manufacturing process, stick a handmade sticker on, and charge a premium.

@edge I did also mention that in my first post about sticker brands not being entirely truthful
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 09:40:19 AM by LEACHY48 »
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imogzyboy

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #80 on: May 26, 2020, 09:40:15 AM »

I have to say due to this forum would I only know about CNC, you ask 95% of my club what a CNC is they’d look blankly at you, if Keeley and others stated the use of CNC people wouldn’t actually know what that meant in my opinion, they don’t advertise as 100% hand crafted I personally think if everyone stated the CNC process normal bat buyers wouldn’t care, forum people may care
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edge

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #81 on: May 26, 2020, 09:44:08 AM »


@edge I did also mention that in my first post about sticker brands not being entirely truthful
G1+ SUPER ULTRA RESERVE PRO edition willow is another,

Graded on performance is another.

Personally, I don't have a problem with people calling their bats handmade if they are CNCd but I do have an issue if the CNC process isn't advertised or at least transparent.

I have asked Tim what his process is, and he said every bat is handmade by him, no mention of a CNC.

That's the issue.

No other industry can you completely hide your manufacturing process, stick a handmade sticker on, and charge a premium.
To be honest I've always thought anyone who bought one of those had it coming...

Is it untrue to say every bat is handmade by him? Assuming he does actually do them all himself then I wouldn't say it's unfair to say that. I just don't understand your hangup on CNC.
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LEACHY48

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #82 on: May 26, 2020, 09:47:12 AM »

😂😂😂 Ok I missed that one! They don't have a section proclaiming their '100% hand made bats' or something like that though so where's the transparency problem? CNC use doesn't invalidate the hand work that is done, and they're not hiding the CNC.

I think being economical with the truth (not hiding the CNC but not publicising) is as bad as hiding it. If you ask RJ, what his bat making process is, I hope he would say: 'the bats are CNCd to a rough shape then hand made and refined using traditional hand tools' because that's honest and transparent which by all accounts he is.
I have asked Dan at chase, and Kippax too and they all include machining in the process, as do H4l.

If I asked keeley the same question (as I have) you'd just get: 'the bats are all handmade using traditional methods'

That's the difference.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 09:49:17 AM by LEACHY48 »
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Nmcgee

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #83 on: May 26, 2020, 09:49:43 AM »

It doesn’t matter if the average punter knows or cares about CNC machines. You cant say handmade if it’s not. You cant say made in England/Australia if its not...etc.
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LEACHY48

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #84 on: May 26, 2020, 09:51:51 AM »

To be honest I've always thought anyone who bought one of those had it coming...

Is it untrue to say every bat is handmade by him? Assuming he does actually do them all himself then I wouldn't say it's unfair to say that. I just don't understand your hangup on CNC.

Maybe I'm not getting my point across, I don't have a problem with CNC or any other mechanised process, but when brands are being economical with the truth when discussing their manufacturing process, I. E. Not divulging the entire process, that in my opinion isn't right.

People would still buy keeley bats if he mentioned the CNC, so why hide it?
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Jimbo

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #85 on: May 26, 2020, 09:54:00 AM »

Unless there's a technical legal definition for handmade that they are failing to meet, then they absolutely can. How much "Made in X" stuff is "processed" in the subcontinent or China?

It might be a bit distasteful to some but if you're getting a quality bat at a price you are happy to pay then you're doing alright IMO. Would you pay extra for the same bat if someone told you it had been hand sanded rather than machine?
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Buzz

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #86 on: May 26, 2020, 09:55:56 AM »

If you use a mechanical press is a bat still handmade?
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buddyb

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2020, 09:58:00 AM »

I think being economical with the truth (not hiding the CNC but not publicising) is as bad as hiding it. If you ask RJ, what his bat making process is, I hope he would say: 'the bats are CNCd to a rough shape then hand made and refined using traditional hand tools' because that's honest and transparent which by all accounts he is.
I have asked Dan at chase, and Kippax too and they all include machining in the process, as do H4l.

If I asked keeley the same question (as I have) you'd just get: 'the bats are all handmade using traditional methods'

That's the difference.

In short I would say they are all handmade, but if you asked what my processes were, I wouldn’t hide it.

Would you say that people who make from partmades can’t disclose their bats are handmade then? As how are they to know what processes are used before they receive that bat. Can they even call themselves bat makers, because they didn’t make the actual bat from start finish. I can put together ikea furniture, but I don’t class myself as a furniture maker. But that’s a completely different subject.
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Simmy

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #88 on: May 26, 2020, 09:58:50 AM »

It doesn’t matter if the average punter knows or cares about CNC machines. You cant say handmade if it’s not. You cant say made in England/Australia if its not...etc.

How is it not hand made? It's not like you put a bit of wood in and it comes out a fully finished bat is it?

80% of the work is still to do.
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SOULMAN1012

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Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally
« Reply #89 on: May 26, 2020, 09:59:02 AM »

I guess the issue thats come up a lot is what amount of machine work is allowed or can be used before you claim your fully handmade.

The pics of Salix and Hunts I’m not sure if Tom put them up as a point to show that a bandsaw is used to take some wood out of the back to reduce the amount of work a drawknife does for example.

This has come up time and time again and i guess for me either way if using a bandsaw to work our of the back of a bat or a spindle to take wood out of the shoulders this is just a technology advancement from years gone by and to get the orders our for shops and online shops etc its needed.

I guess for me i would class Salix, Chase to name a couple as fully handmade as there is no CAD aided design process. The raw cleft is shaped entirely by hand albeit with the use of some machinery but you have to pay attention to every element to get the right outcome at the end.
The CAD design used by GM, B3 and kippax that iv seen on videos still requires a fair amount of hand work but its less than is involved in the top two brands for example.
You can argue all day over the costing, should a bat thats 50% done on a CNC machine for example carry the same price or a higher price than a bat thats 75% done by hand?? No idea thats down to the buyer.

There are loyalties that people have to brands and people and I’m no different in that sense but i do think some brands really do take the Michael with how they advertise there brand or the strap lines that they use but as has been said the vast majority of players don’t care about how the bats made or where it comes from as long as it A) falls into there budget and B) has nice shine stickers or if younger there favourite player on TV is using it
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