Topic: Keeley cricket and the industry generally (Read 22748 times)

LEACHY48 · « **Reply #90 on:** May 26, 2020, 09:59:32 AM »

Quote from: Buzz on May 26, 2020, 09:55:56 AM

If you use a mechanical press is a bat still handmade?

I don't see the point in flippant arguments but I'll answer anyway.

Most presses are hand operated in some capacity if not all presses I've seen. Most bats are pressed individually by someone operating the press throughout the process. That's a big difference to sticking a bat on a CNC hitting enter and walking away for 20 mins.

Also there is no way you could get enough pressure through a bat to give it the required performance without using a press.

LEACHY48 · « **Reply #91 on:** May 26, 2020, 10:03:25 AM »

Quote from: buddyb on May 26, 2020, 09:58:00 AM

In short I would say they are all handmade, but if you asked what my processes were, I wouldn�t hide it.

Would you say that people who make from partmades can�t disclose their bats are handmade then? As how are they to know what processes are used before they receive that bat. Can they even call themselves bat makers, because they didn�t make the actual bat from start finish. I can put together ikea furniture, but I don�t class myself as a furniture maker. But that�s a completely different subject.

That's the point, you wouldn't hide it. Many others do.

Regarding the part made comment, I don't call myself a batmaker, but @jonny77 has every right to. John at Red ink is who I use to supply the few bats I've made and the only machinery used is a bandsaw. As long as you know your suppliers process of course you can call yourself a batmaker.

Red Ink Cricket · « **Reply #92 on:** May 26, 2020, 10:22:39 AM »

Quote from: LEACHY48 on May 26, 2020, 10:03:25 AM

That's the point, you wouldn't hide it. Many others do.

Regarding the part made comment, I don't call myself a batmaker, but @jonny77 has every right to. John at Red ink is who I use to supply the few bats I've made and the only machinery used is a bandsaw. As long as you know your suppliers process of course you can call yourself a batmaker.

Not technically true but close. I used to use a bandsaw but now have a table saw and saw for the handles. Both have purpose built jigs on for accuracy.

Whilst a bandsaw can be an inaccurate piece of equipment, set up properly with the right blade, it can also be a very accurate. Not to the cnc level but in combination with the jig it can be spot on.

I also use a spindle moulder for the shoulder shaping, along with the press obviously.

I�m not going to enter the debate or query what�s been said before but wanted to clarify a couple of points .

In order to make money, improve your products and efficiency etc you need to make changes. Bats 50 years ago weren�t fully handmade. The old videos show a lot of machining to get them down to a rough shape which was then finished off using hand tools. Modern version is the cnc/ copy lathe etc. Brands need to constantly evolve. Chase has his system, salix machine heavily to a rough shape and have recently introduced a concaving system for their bats via machine. There will always be a grey area or a slight lack of transparency on some things. I don�t have issues with cnc part or full, my concern would be people claiming to do things they don�t. Brands who claim U.K. made or they the press when they don�t etc etc. But that�s been discussed before and won�t even change. For us in the know then we may see issue with certain things but to the general public they don�t know/ don�t care.

buddyb · « **Reply #93 on:** May 26, 2020, 10:23:43 AM »

Quote from: LEACHY48 on May 26, 2020, 10:03:25 AM

That's the point, you wouldn't hide it. Many others do.

Regarding the part made comment, I don't call myself a batmaker, but @jonny77 has every right to. John at Red ink is who I use to supply the few bats I've made and the only machinery used is a bandsaw. As long as you know your suppliers process of course you can call yourself a batmaker.

A bat maker is someone who does the whole process from start to finish. Someone who uses a part made isn�t in my opinion. But it�s similar principles you are labelling to top those who use machinery in there processes. A furniture maker who puts the table legs on a copy lathe to turn the leg, you are now say can�t call that table handmade because he didn�t turn the legs himself. Every manufacturer uses machinery in some shape or form. I use to do everything buy hand from the raw cleft. I was told by a surgeon to either give up batmaking or think smart. No large manufacturer could possibly turn out 40k bats a year being fully handmade start to finish. Unless you have a factory in India and pay them �3 a day because the labour costs are so ridiculously cheap.

Sivlar13 · « **Reply #94 on:** May 26, 2020, 10:26:17 AM »

I can imagine that the likes of GM, who are owned by Unicorn, have someone who deals with the �legal� side to ensure that there are no loopholes where cricket fanatics can potentially argue that their product isn�t fully handmade. You�ll see with the established brands that there is a number of them that have someone who deals with the legal side and covers all that ground.

The Keeley guys have been around for years and years, absolutely and have built their reputation. That said, the brand itself is in its infancy and, I can imagine, doesn�t consist of a relatively large team. As someone mentioned, you can email them and I can imagine you�d get a very transparent response about the process. Or even pop down, of course when social distancing is removed, and from what I know, Tim would be more than happy to have a beer with you and show you how everything works, as I imagine many bat makers would be keen to do. The ones that aren�t are the ones you need to worry about.

Cricket is a mass market, but there aren�t that many people who care massively for the kit they use. Does it pick up nicely? Does it ping? Yes, great, I�ll have it.There are plenty of pros who feel like that and also many players in the league that I play in and in my club who only really care for those two things. If it flies, people will pay.

edge · « **Reply #95 on:** May 26, 2020, 10:27:02 AM »

Quote from: LEACHY48 on May 26, 2020, 09:59:32 AM

sticking a bat on a CNC hitting enter and walking away for 20 mins..

There is a bit more to it than that..!

Buzz · « **Reply #96 on:** May 26, 2020, 10:28:34 AM »

Quote from: LEACHY48 on May 26, 2020, 09:59:32 AM

I don't see the point in flippant arguments but I'll answer anyway.

Most presses are hand operated in some capacity if not all presses I've seen. Most bats are pressed individually by someone operating the press throughout the process. That's a big difference to sticking a bat on a CNC hitting enter and walking away for 20 mins.

Also there is no way you could get enough pressure through a bat to give it the required performance without using a press.

So the design of the bat was done by hand and the code used to programme the cnc machine was done by hand etc etc.

They are just different skills.

LEACHY48 · « **Reply #97 on:** May 26, 2020, 10:46:57 AM »

Quote from: edge on May 26, 2020, 10:27:02 AM

There is a bit more to it than that..!

Of course there is, but once you have started the process off you don't need to do anything. That's what I was trying to get at, which isn't the same as pressing.

Kez · « **Reply #98 on:** May 26, 2020, 10:57:47 AM »

Quote from: LEACHY48 on May 26, 2020, 09:37:34 AM

@DorsetDan

No other industry can you completely hide your manufacturing process, stick a handmade sticker on, and charge a premium.

I reckon there are a few. Golf clubs are just as much smoke and mirrors.

Tom · « **Reply #99 on:** May 26, 2020, 11:15:31 AM »

@LEACHY48 If you look at any industry where handmade comes at a premium (whether in price or in stature) there are debates and discussions around what is better, and what constitutes handmade. Handmade shoes and handmade furniture are just two examples

LEACHY48 · « **Reply #100 on:** May 26, 2020, 11:16:27 AM »

Quote from: Tom on May 26, 2020, 11:15:31 AM

@LEACHY48 If you look at any industry where handmade comes at a premium (whether in price or in stature) there are debates and discussions around what is better, and what constitutes handmade. Handmade shoes and handmade furniture are just two examples

Agreed. However there is transparency in their manufacturing process, you know which is handmade and which isn't. I'm not saying one is better than the other, that's never been my point, initially I was just moaning about the lack of transparency.

Tom · « **Reply #101 on:** May 26, 2020, 11:20:56 AM »

Quote from: LEACHY48 on May 26, 2020, 11:16:27 AM

Agreed. However there is transparency in their manufacturing process, you know which is handmade and which isn't. I'm not saying one is better than the other, that's never been my point, initially I was just moaning about the lack of transparency.

Really? https://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2017/11/lies-in-the-shoe-industry-handmade-middlemen-top-leather-etc.html

Spend anytime immersed in any of these industries and you'll see they have the exact same issues. Cricket is not exceptional, the mechanisation of manual tasks and growth of small businesses leads to these grey areas.

LEACHY48 · « **Reply #102 on:** May 26, 2020, 11:23:48 AM »

Fair enough, I stand corrected on what I said then. I stand by my argument though, in that these grey areas shouldn't exist. In any industry. @Tom

Jimbo · « **Reply #103 on:** May 26, 2020, 11:31:25 AM »

Quote from: DorsetDan on May 26, 2020, 09:57:32 AM

Tim is a busy dude. Basing a lot on him not divulging the entire manufacturing process of the bats in one quick email is quite a jump. Just let it go.... or try and get him on the phone posing as trading standards.... or hunt him down Rogue Traders stylee

Get that pair onto the Ebay "Pro bat" sellers 😂

Tom · « **Reply #104 on:** May 26, 2020, 11:36:40 AM »

@LEACHY48 I don't actually disagree with you, but equally don't think cricket as an industry has more dishonest people than any others.

I think all manufacturers should be more open about their processes, but we are a unique breed on here. We seek out that information, the rest of the cricket world really don't care. They like a bat, they use a bat. In the same way when you buy shoes. The footwear industry is actually really good comparison � 'top grade leather', 'handmade', 'made in italy'. But at the end of the day, almost all of us we want a nice pair of shoes we buy Clark's, the equivalent of Slazenger. Or if we feel like showing off, we buy Ferragamo. Footwear's M&H.

It is worth saying that Keeley is about the only large-scale factory you can go into as a regular punter and visit � they don't really hide the CNC, they just don't shout about it. Keeley and GM saying that they're handcrafted is their genuine belief that they still are.

Author Topic: Keeley cricket and the industry generally (Read 22748 times)

LEACHY48

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

LEACHY48

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

Red Ink Cricket

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

buddyb

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

Sivlar13

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

edge

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

Buzz

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

LEACHY48

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

Kez

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

Tom

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

LEACHY48

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

Tom

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

LEACHY48

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

Jimbo

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally

Tom

Re: Keeley cricket and the industry generally