Topic: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches (Read 38220 times)

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #345 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:03:56 AM »

Quote from: edge on June 14, 2021, 09:02:12 AM

This has been an uncomfortable truth for years now, their opening spells are very defensive. Unless it's a real green seamer I'm not sure there's the same value in playing them together anymore.

Pope seems to me to bat like he finds domestic cricket too easy and struggles to adapt his natural rhythm to test level bowling when he can't dominate all the time. Not unusual, you would think he'd really benefit from playing in a more experienced side. Stokes and Buttler back in makes things look a lot better, then we're back to just the traditional top three problems!

Buttler?

Why Buttler and not Foakes (The better keeper and has a better FC avg and (I've not stat checked this).. but most likely similar or better test avg)

or are we going to go down the 'he's soo good at white ball so must be a good red ball cricketer'. -- FYI.. I actually love how Buttler tries to adapt his game btw. It's really really impressive

nivaga · « **Reply #346 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:06:56 AM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on June 14, 2021, 08:27:22 AM

Luckily for England, the other nations aren't actually that much better so it's not as obvious.

Yep ... shows in the number of test matches not going the distance anymore. Not saying good or bad, but indicative of traditional test match skills waning. Again, not saying good or bad, but comes back to the questions of 4 day tests ... would make a lot of these players look a lot better if it was NOT 5 days.

As an aside on the general direction .... after tests come down to 4 days, T20s become the hundred ... and the hundred become a super over, we are then only 3 balls away from baseball :-D

Jimbo · « **Reply #347 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:07:00 AM »

I wouldn't totally object to Buttler batting 6 and not keeping. His record is decent and he's got plenty experience of pressure situations which might help the less experienced heads. Something like:

Sibley
Burns
Crawley/Bracey/3rd opener
Root
Stokes
Buttler/Lawrence/Pope
Foakes
Etc...

edge · « **Reply #348 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:14:59 AM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on June 14, 2021, 09:03:56 AM

Buttler? Why Buttler and not Foakes (The better keeper and has a better FC avg and (I've not stat checked this).. but most likely similar or better test avg)

or are we going to go down the 'he's soo good at white ball so must be a good red ball cricketer'. -- FYI.. I actually love how Buttler tries to adapt his game btw. It's really really impressive

Seems little point in pretending they're going to pick Foakes over Buttler? I can see why too, no doubt Foakes is the better keeper but Buttler's red ball game has come a long way since he was recalled, think he's a stronger batting option than Foakes. He's got a decent defensive technique and a good cricket head on him so see no reason he can't be a good test player. Silverwood clearly isn't going to pick spinners much outside of Asia so Foakes' superior hands up to the stumps don't help him much!

SouthpawMark · « **Reply #349 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:20:44 AM »

Pope is going to be another Vince.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #350 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:21:45 AM »

Quote from: nivaga on June 14, 2021, 09:06:56 AM

Yep ... shows in the number of test matches not going the distance anymore. Not saying good or bad, but indicative of traditional test match skills waning. Again, not saying good or bad, but comes back to the questions of 4 day tests ... would make a lot of these players look a lot better if it was NOT 5 days.

As an aside on the general direction .... after tests come down to 4 days, T20s become the hundred ... and the hundred become a super over, we are then only 3 balls away from baseball :-D

It's inevitable now

100
ODI (basically a longer version hitathon but great for beer sales!)
3-4 day tests

ppccopener · « **Reply #351 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:29:01 AM »

Quote from: SouthpawMark on June 14, 2021, 09:20:44 AM

Pope is going to be another Vince.

There must be a few of us who saw all of Ramps and Hick�s test careers hoping that is not the case.
The difference now is players get a longer run, not sure how long a run in the team is enough, but there are some who develop of bit later.

I agree with @ProCricketer1982 on this, Pope has the ability but is lacking a test match batting head-not unlike Vince you are right.

Thorpe, Collingwood and Trescothick are all around the team�.they can�t bat for Pope but does he need their influence?

If I were Ollie Pope Collingwood is the one I would want to work with the most, regularly until he either can�t do it mentally or something clicks.

edge · « **Reply #352 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:29:58 AM »

Quote from: SouthpawMark on June 14, 2021, 09:20:44 AM

Pope is going to be another Vince.

Why do so many people seem to think Vince has a great first class record?

AJ2014 · « **Reply #353 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:36:13 AM »

Losing test match at home ground, the way they did, doesn't it mean half the team isn't good enough!

SouthpawMark · « **Reply #354 on:** June 14, 2021, 09:41:07 AM »

Quote from: edge on June 14, 2021, 09:29:58 AM

Why do so many people seem to think Vince has a great first class record?

I meant more in the style of play. They both make it look easy, then suffer a brain fart and get out. Neither of them get out to good balls particularly often - their wickets are quite often self-inflicted.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #355 on:** June 14, 2021, 11:44:36 AM »

Quote from: ppccopener on June 14, 2021, 09:29:01 AM

There must be a few of us who saw all of Ramps and Hick�s test careers hoping that is not the case.
The difference now is players get a longer run, not sure how long a run in the team is enough, but there are some who develop of bit later.

I agree with @ProCricketer1982 on this, Pope has the ability but is lacking a test match batting head-not unlike Vince you are right.

Thorpe, Collingwood and Trescothick are all around the team�.they can�t bat for Pope but does he need their influence?

If I were Ollie Pope Collingwood is the one I would want to work with the most, regularly until he either can�t do it mentally or something clicks.

Collingwood's mentality was phenomenal.. nowhere near the talent of some players but he knew his game, he knew his role and was able AND WILLING to adapt to the situation.. Brig Block or 'get on with it'.. That is a hallmark of a test match ..tbh, just a longer format player in general.. Doesn't have to be a pro cricketer really.. ANY batsmen should be a able and willing to adapt their game not just a one trick pony

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #356 on:** June 14, 2021, 11:56:06 AM »

Quote from: AJ2014 on June 14, 2021, 09:36:13 AM

Losing test match at home ground, the way they did, doesn't it mean half the team isn't good enough!

Root/Anderson/Broad are all proven to be 'good enough'

The rest aren't either through not having played enough or just not performing at the required standard (so 40+ avg for a top 6 batter).. and please, none of this 'but the last x months he has crap'.. You want and need long term consistency for batting.. not purple patches and inconsistency

bowling isn't OVERLY a worry as we have some bowlers who might not be as good but are at least ok (Robinson, wood, archer, stone, Woakes). Batting though... literally only root avg's over 40.... that's horrendous

SouthpawMark · « **Reply #357 on:** June 14, 2021, 12:06:22 PM »

Cook, Strauss, Trott, Bell, Pietersen. It was only a few years ago that we had a top 5 that was the envy of the rest of the world, and we had a good number of high quality replacements too.

Something has obviously gone very wrong in county cricket in recent years, as the players coming through now are nowhere near the quality of the aforementioned. None of them seem to be able to graft anymore, and those that can, such as Sibley and Burns, have questionable techniques that have let them down time and again.

Anyone who thinks the return of Stokes and Buttler will sort things out are in for disappointment. Neither average about 40, and they�re not going to sort out the shocking state of England�s top three.

After the 2015 World Cup, the ECB decided to model their white ball stuff on what McCullum�s NZ we�re doing. It would be a good idea for them to model the test team on Williamson�s test match NZ team. Time to press the reset button, as the current set up is fundamentally flawed.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #358 on:** June 14, 2021, 12:46:52 PM »

Quote from: SouthpawMark on June 14, 2021, 12:06:22 PM

Cook, Strauss, Trott, Bell, Pietersen. It was only a few years ago that we had a top 5 that was the envy of the rest of the world, and we had a good number of high quality replacements too.

Something has obviously gone very wrong in county cricket in recent years, as the players coming through now are nowhere near the quality of the aforementioned. None of them seem to be able to graft anymore, and those that can, such as Sibley and Burns, have questionable techniques that have let them down time and again.

Anyone who thinks the return of Stokes and Buttler will sort things out are in for disappointment. Neither average about 40, and they�re not going to sort out the shocking state of England�s top three.

After the 2015 World Cup, the ECB decided to model their white ball stuff on what McCullum�s NZ we�re doing. It would be a good idea for them to model the test team on Williamson�s test match NZ team. Time to press the reset button, as the current set up is fundamentally flawed.

so.. when did that top 5 learn their trade?? it wasn't in the mid to late 2000's .. it was when they were kids , youth players etc... aka.. when the longer formats were where it was at.. players were bred for longer formats etc.

People say England won the wC because the ECB focussed on it for a few years.. rubbish.. the players who have turned out to be world class white ball players (Roy, Hales, Bairstow, Morgan, Buttler et all) have been trained from a young age to be white ball players.. NOT red ball players (well, more white ball who moonlight as red ball really)... hence move forward to your current 19-24yr olds who are potentially even better at white ball than the previous generation... bUT.. worse at red ball.. why.. not talent as the guys coming through are as talented as anyone.. just in a different way... it's purely that's what they are being trained up as .. they are growing up having hitting drilled into them.. both from a execution point of view but also their mentality.

Bats_Entertainment · « **Reply #359 on:** June 14, 2021, 02:22:49 PM »

In my opinion, this is undoubtedly the impact T20 and Sky Sports have had on our game. I blane the ECB for their greed and for not seeing the bigger picture.

Author Topic: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches (Read 38220 times)

ProCricketer1982

Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches

nivaga

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Jimbo

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edge

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SouthpawMark

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ProCricketer1982

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ppccopener

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edge

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AJ2014

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SouthpawMark

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ProCricketer1982

Re: Eng Vs New Zealand test matches

ProCricketer1982

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SouthpawMark

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ProCricketer1982

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Bats_Entertainment

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