England v India series
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mo_town

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #765 on: September 08, 2021, 09:31:30 AM »

the sport is run by people whose only concern is money, not the actual sport

I dont really believe in this argument. Arent some countries still doing well in the longer format despite focusing on the shorter formats? I read an article the other day which in my opinion hit the nail on head. If you look at county cricket, trundlers do well and get loads of wickets thanks to helpful pitches. These trundlers wouldnt stand a chance playing at the highest level yet they rule supreme in county cricket. Its all thanks to the kind of pitches which are prepared. If ECB really wants to change the state of things, it needs to start preparing pitches which are better. The batsmen are not really getting the kind of prep they need to prosper at the highest level.
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ProCricketer1982

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #766 on: September 08, 2021, 09:47:51 AM »

I dont really believe in this argument. Arent some countries still doing well in the longer format despite focusing on the shorter formats? I read an article the other day which in my opinion hit the nail on head. If you look at county cricket, trundlers do well and get loads of wickets thanks to helpful pitches. These trundlers wouldnt stand a chance playing at the highest level yet they rule supreme in county cricket. Its all thanks to the kind of pitches which are prepared. If ECB really wants to change the state of things, it needs to start preparing pitches which are better. The batsmen are not really getting the kind of prep they need to prosper at the highest level.

fair shout. Do not actually disagree with you.


What is a 'good pitch'??   how many times do you rock up to a club and if it's a road etc go 'oh what a great pitch'... Is it though?? is a road where a batsmen with limited technique can prosper by simply hitting through the line actually be better than a sporting wicket which offers movement/bounce etc?

Now.. You are 100% right.. to far the other way and you encourage low 80's trundlers to prosper which again, doesn't help anyone.

Of course, a 'good pitch' is one that offers enough to a bowler that if you bowl in the right place, you won't go for runs and you will take wickets.. but is good enough that if you bowl in the wrong place you get smashed.. also a pitch that brings a spinner into the game , gets worse through the game (to make results more likely and make it harder to bat for draws BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE like some India sand pits etc).

Fine fine balance and groundsman will get it wrong from time to time (which is the FUN of the game, aim for the perfect pitch and natural variation will then help add in that element of difference)..

one day pitches are dire.. just flat tracks suitable for hitting only. You don't need technique/mental strength etc to survive and prosper.. 

scheduling games for April and sept in the main causes issues but then, the ECB is all about money so wants it's short formats in the prime months.

Ok, so some counties are 'doing well'.. but what's the quality of those teams like? What quality are they playing against? if the quality is generally worse then even if you 'win'.. you're winning far easier etc etc..

Streaming and viewing figures for test matches outstrip limited over games so the demand is there.. the problem is that people generally don't and can't afford to go to test after test for 5 days at loads of cost... but can afford a one off beer match at a ODI/2020...so do.. then people claim it's because they like it more rather than just it's more suited to people's lifestyle and finances.

How many can afford 5 days at lords compared to a ODI ticket at Lords say?? 99% of us could happily afford the one day out on the lash... very few could genuinely afford 5 days, in London.. on the lash
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Buzz

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #767 on: September 08, 2021, 11:11:54 AM »

Back on topic a little. Joe Root has confirmed that Jos will play in the last test.

Which means the team/batting line up will have to be shuffled around again.

Also one of Pope or Bairstow will be dropped. Likely to be Pope as that is an easier conversation and we need Bairstow at second slip.

Tough on Pope who dug us out of a hole from 60-5 in the oval test.
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ppccopener

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #768 on: September 08, 2021, 11:34:22 AM »

Yes one of those two will miss out. It’s a tough call either way as Bairstow has done ok and Pope looks the best of the young batsmen.

Butler is not in form either.
Pope is missing out here I think it’s odds on
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Jimbo

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #769 on: September 08, 2021, 11:56:33 AM »

Dropping Pope after he top scored in the last match seems an absolutely bizarre decision. I really thought Silverwood would be a great appointment but losing faith all the time.
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ppccopener

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #770 on: September 08, 2021, 12:00:06 PM »

Dropping Pope after he top scored in the last match seems an absolutely bizarre decision. I really thought Silverwood would be a great appointment but losing faith all the time.

Yes…not this decision particularly but he has the knack of management speak and saying nothing at all.

I’d rather we had some plain speaking. For this decision they are playing someone who has had very little cricket and is in poor form.

I think I’d of left Butler out of this one.
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Jeff Navarro

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #771 on: September 08, 2021, 12:06:13 PM »

Pope has a decent record at Old Trafford so Bairstow out for me.
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Jimbo

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #772 on: September 08, 2021, 12:20:05 PM »

Yes…not this decision particularly but he has the knack of management speak and saying nothing at all.

I’d rather we had some plain speaking. For this decision they are playing someone who has had very little cricket and is in poor form.

I think I’d of left Butler out of this one.

Not just this one decision but it does seem to fit a bit of a pattern of going back to players who have had plenty of opportunities and not shown anything exceptional simply because "you know what you're getting".
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Buzz

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #773 on: September 08, 2021, 12:20:07 PM »

I would have told Jos to take another weeks leave personally. I would also have told Malan to spend every waking hour he has learning to be a second slip.

Given that Jos is playing any way that leave us with Pope vs Bairstow, there comes a point when you say who has the bigger upside.
Johnny has played 75 plus tests, we know what he will do.
We don't yet know what Ollie can do.
There is also Dan Lawrence in the mix.

At some point one of these young players (including the likes of Bracey) need to put their hands up and show they can do it.

Honestly England have no idea what their best team is.
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Warneymonster

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #774 on: September 08, 2021, 01:04:10 PM »

are we all assuming that Leach has been brought in to actually play? if so Moeen becomes surplus surely? he hasnt bowled well enough and wouldnt get in the side as a batter

i would go with

Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root
Pope
Bairstow (not 100% sure on this over lawrence)
Buttler
Woakes
Robinson
Leach
Anderson

Root may have to bowl a few extra overs but would say that gives us a deeper batting lineup
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ppccopener

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #775 on: September 08, 2021, 01:14:36 PM »

are we all assuming that Leach has been brought in to actually play? if so Moeen becomes surplus surely? he hasnt bowled well enough and wouldnt get in the side as a batter

i would go with

Burns
Hameed
Malan
Root
Pope
Bairstow (not 100% sure on this over lawrence)
Buttler
Woakes
Robinson
Leach
Anderson

Root may have to bowl a few extra overs but would say that gives us a deeper batting lineup

Not according to the press quotes from Root. He said Mo is the number 1 spinner, Leach plays if they consider a second one.

I actually don’t know how leach gets in the team at all. Maybe he has to wait till Sri Lanka and India away.

The control Leach has makes him the number 1 in my opinion, if it’s not turning much you have to keep control, otherwise Root will continue to put our bowlers at risk of too much.
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Warneymonster

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #776 on: September 08, 2021, 01:22:33 PM »

if we play a second spinner then we lose a batter? hasnt run scoring been one of the main problems? wasting leach's time bringing him into the squad to carry drinks. did the same with saqib
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SD

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #777 on: September 08, 2021, 02:49:55 PM »

It would be lunacy to prepare a wicket for a game against India that requires two spinners to be selected.  It doesn't come as a surprise that the stats show that England have been on top on this series when there has been lateral movement for the seamers.  The two games we have lost have both been in London where the priority seems to be preparing pitches that will generate 5 days of income generation rather than giving England the best chance of winning.
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Manormanic

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #778 on: September 08, 2021, 03:07:01 PM »

I would have told Jos to take another weeks leave personally. I would also have told Malan to spend every waking hour he has learning to be a second slip.

Given that Jos is playing any way that leave us with Pope vs Bairstow, there comes a point when you say who has the bigger upside.
Johnny has played 75 plus tests, we know what he will do.
We don't yet know what Ollie can do.
There is also Dan Lawrence in the mix.

At some point one of these young players (including the likes of Bracey) need to put their hands up and show they can do it.

Honestly England have no idea what their best team is.

I think this encapsulates all of the issues very well.  Buttler is there not on cricketing merit but because Root leans on him so hard as skipper, and his return does leave England with a horrible selection to make because whoever is left out will rightly feel aggrieved; if its Bairstow, he would be quite reasonable in saying hold on, you change my role for one game, the guy who came in had a slightly better game than me and I get burned, and if its Pope he would think what would I have to have done?  It'd be lovely if Pope had gone on to three figures, or if Bairstow had done a little more than look great in making 35s in this series so that it was a clear call. 
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potzy248

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #779 on: September 08, 2021, 07:59:30 PM »

Nonsense it is valuable now more than ever, especially during a test series with back to back matches.

In the second innings at the oval England bowled 150 overs. Only 26 or so were bowled by Mo and about 6 by Root.
This has been the pattern of Joe's captaincy, he flogs his best bowlers, check out Jimmy's workload. Jofra is broken.
At the start of the oval test, Jimmy and Robbo looked shot. They won't make it through Manchester.
It is absolutely relevant.
Fielding for that long also breaks batsmen.

Show me a team that goes out to tire the bowlers as a strategy (Which is my point). Tiring out the bowlers happens naturally without employing a Sibley like batsman to go out and do nothing (But hey he's now dropped so that worked well). No team would ever say let's go and tire the bowlers out. Did India go out to tire the bowlers in the 2nd innings? No, they batted to their strengths and shafted the bowlers by scoring 400+.

Look, I know what you are saying in that tiring out bowlers is super important to winning test matches but my point is that you shouldn't base your strategy around this (10 runs off 150 balls is that worthwhile? Maybe in a super hot country but then spinners are usually bowling in those places).

What you're saying is that Root was more to blame for flogging his bowlers but I don't think Mo was good enough to get more overs.

@ProCricketer1982 My point about McCullum was that he played to his strengths and by the end of his career was consistently scoring well and left the NZ team in the best shape it's ever been in. Our whole cricket culture changed with him. I have no idea what they are saying to guys like Butler and Bairstow but they are obviously confused to what their roles are. When they keep failing surely you let them play to their strengths?

Anyway I think your top 6 look much better in the last test and think you should give them a good crack at it.
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