Topic: Careers Cut Short Before Their Prime? (Read 9870 times)

SD · « **Reply #30 on:** October 31, 2023, 03:55:14 PM »

Quote from: billyb on October 31, 2023, 12:31:53 PM

I remember that Swann felt like he missed out on a few years of playing for England because he upset a coach or selectors. He was quite scathing about who was playing for England ahead of him - maybe Udal? I can't really remember.

Swann made his ODI debut in 2000 in South Africa but had to wait until 2008 to play a test match. His attitude and professionalism in the South Africa tour where by all account appalling.

England gave debuts to a few spinners - Richard Dawson, Gareth Batty, Shaun Udal, Ian Blackwell and Monty Panesar - whist Swann waited to play test cricket. Panesar was the only one of that group with real talent but Swann only had himself to blame.

billyb · « **Reply #31 on:** October 31, 2023, 04:31:51 PM »

Quote from: SD on October 31, 2023, 03:55:14 PM

Swann made his ODI debut in 2000 in South Africa but had to wait until 2008 to play a test match. His attitude and professionalism in the South Africa tour where by all account appalling.

England gave debuts to a few spinners - Richard Dawson, Gareth Batty, Shaun Udal, Ian Blackwell and Monty Panesar - whist Swann waited to play test cricket. Panesar was the only one of that group with real talent but Swann only had himself to blame.

I think if they could have handled KP, they could have handled Swann. He needed to change but I'm sure he could have changed with the right guidance. England seems to run away from, and not like, difficult or unusual characters (perhaps like Malan) to their loss - management, support, and guidance might not answer everything but it can certainly go a long way. Would an Andrew Symonds have made it in the English game? I doubt it. Got to be nice, right schools, speak right, right class so on and so on.

SD · « **Reply #32 on:** October 31, 2023, 05:58:16 PM »

Quote from: billyb on October 31, 2023, 04:31:51 PM

I think if they could have handled KP, they could have handled Swann. He needed to change but I'm sure he could have changed with the right guidance. England seems to run away from, and not like, difficult or unusual characters (perhaps like Malan) to their loss - management, support, and guidance might not answer everything but it can certainly go a long way. Would an Andrew Symonds have made it in the English game? I doubt it. Got to be nice, right schools, speak right, right class so on and so on.

The point with KP was that whilst the expectations he set for those around him made him a difficult person to share a dressing room with, there was no questioning the demands he set for himself. His attitude in training and preparation was part of a complete step change in the professionalism of the England set up that Vaughan and Fletcher were looking to instill.

Swann's behaviour on the 2000 tour to South Africa on the otherhand spoke to a lack of desire to make the best of himself as a professional. The lateness, lack of effort in training and particularly his drinking on that tour spoke very poorly of his approach to professional cricket. Swann has said himself that he was a young man with a tour fee in his pocket enjoying himself at that point in his life.

Had he been born a generation before, that sort of thing probably wouldn't have been that much of a problem but playing when he did, his earlier behaviour did restrict his career in its early years

ppccopener · « **Reply #33 on:** October 31, 2023, 07:52:20 PM »

Quote from: billyb on October 31, 2023, 04:31:51 PM

I think if they could have handled KP, they could have handled Swann. He needed to change but I'm sure he could have changed with the right guidance. England seems to run away from, and not like, difficult or unusual characters (perhaps like Malan) to their loss - management, support, and guidance might not answer everything but it can certainly go a long way. Would an Andrew Symonds have made it in the English game? I doubt it. Got to be nice, right schools, speak right, right class so on and so on.

England handled KP but only up to a point. There�s been some good debate on here actually

about whether the ECB and the Captain could of handled a high maintenance player differently. I think the upshot was regret and mistakes on both sides.

Symonds I think had an English parent or was actually born here�.he chose Australia but to answer your question he probably would not of made it to tests or a long term one day career because he was too much trouble�or depending how you see it would need too much man management in our structure-yes very much old school class system.

Swann�very very good bowler and a pain in the backside.

Not so different to KP in personality. KP was however a great trainer and dedicated to improving himself

edge · « **Reply #34 on:** November 01, 2023, 09:43:24 AM »

Quote from: Jimbo on October 28, 2023, 02:09:53 PM

Carberry getting axed was pretty brutal, one of the only players to give a good account of himself that tour.

Controversial take - I thought Carberry looked out of his depth and have never understood why consensus seems to be that he was hard done by to get dropped. Yes he applied himself well but averaging in the twenties and passing 50 once in a five test series is not good.

Jimbo · « **Reply #35 on:** November 01, 2023, 10:20:50 AM »

Quote from: edge on November 01, 2023, 09:43:24 AM

Controversial take - I thought Carberry looked out of his depth and have never understood why consensus seems to be that he was hard done by to get dropped. Yes he applied himself well but averaging in the twenties and passing 50 once in a five test series is not good.

Normally I'd agree, but you look at the averages for that series and when you frame it as 'he averaged better than Cook, Root, Bell, Bairstow, Trott and Prior, and a fraction worse than Pietersen", it sounds a bit unfair that he never really got another go.

edge · « **Reply #36 on:** November 01, 2023, 10:39:18 AM »

Quote from: Jimbo on November 01, 2023, 10:20:50 AM

Normally I'd agree, but you look at the averages for that series and when you frame it as 'he averaged better than Cook, Root, Bell, Bairstow, Trott and Prior, and a fraction worse than Pietersen", it sounds a bit unfair that he never really got another go.

I get the logic, but I think where all those players had a shocking series (and still mostly played more significant innings than Carberry) he looked to be fighting very hard just to do as well as he did. Add in the fact that he was a lot older and it's hardly surprising the selectors looked elsewhere.

Jimbo · « **Reply #37 on:** November 01, 2023, 10:48:09 AM »

Quote from: edge on November 01, 2023, 10:39:18 AM

I get the logic, but I think where all those players had a shocking series (and still mostly played more significant innings than Carberry) he looked to be fighting very hard just to do as well as he did. Add in the fact that he was a lot older and it's hardly surprising the selectors looked elsewhere.

Most of those players had plenty test experience behind them at that point though, Carberry had played one test in his career before that series.

I wouldn't expect many to look comfortable being put into an away Ashes series for their second test ever.

Age factor is a fair point, although when you look at how long Rogers did a job for the Aussies you do wonder, especially given some of the openers England picked post-Carberry.

Manormanic · « **Reply #38 on:** November 01, 2023, 11:01:51 AM »

Quote from: Buzz on October 31, 2023, 08:46:14 AM

To be fair Craig White played loads and had a decent career under Duncan Fletcher, I don't think he qualifies for this list...

My rationale is that he was just starting to experience serious success when his shoulder went, so he played the last last 4 years of his career as a specialist bat in the county game.

Manormanic · « **Reply #39 on:** November 01, 2023, 11:21:52 AM »

Quote from: Jimbo on November 01, 2023, 10:48:09 AM

Most of those players had plenty test experience behind them at that point though, Carberry had played one test in his career before that series.

I wouldn't expect many to look comfortable being put into an away Ashes series for their second test ever.

Especially when the Aussies fielded Ryan Harris and the best version of Mitchell Johnson.

Looked at another way, in the years afterward England tried an assortment of Robson, Lyth, Hales, Duckett, Hameed, Jennings and Stoneman over the next four year cycle. With the exception of the duration of Lyth's ton against the Kiwis, I would argue none of those looked any better than Carberry and most rather worse.

tehhaz · « **Reply #40 on:** November 02, 2023, 01:03:05 AM »

The issue with Carberry in that series was that he battled like hell to get 'in', but having done so was never good enough to go on and make a significant score, and that is a cardinal sin in top level cricket - any high level cricketer will agree that if you get 'in' you have to make it count, and he never did - alas, he wasn't quite good enough.

Kulli · « **Reply #41 on:** November 02, 2023, 10:43:16 AM »

Re Swann, had england stuck with him earlier he may never have developed into the bowler he became, so swings and roundabouts.

Buzz · « **Reply #42 on:** November 02, 2023, 11:06:15 AM »

Quote from: tehhaz on November 02, 2023, 01:03:05 AM

The issue with Carberry in that series was that he battled like hell to get 'in', but having done so was never good enough to go on and make a significant score, and that is a cardinal sin in top level cricket - any high level cricketer will agree that if you get 'in' you have to make it count, and he never did - alas, he wasn't quite good enough.

Quite hard to go on when everyone else is panicking and getting out...

golders · « **Reply #43 on:** November 02, 2023, 02:07:25 PM »

Quote from: Buzz on November 02, 2023, 11:06:15 AM

Quite hard to go on when everyone else is panicking and getting out...

Exactly. No one was good enough in that series.
Plus, Carbs batted with arguably a storm damaged bat that snapped, so as members of the forum, we should be on his side! 🤣

Manormanic · « **Reply #44 on:** November 03, 2023, 05:58:35 PM »

Quote from: tehhaz on November 02, 2023, 01:03:05 AM

The issue with Carberry in that series was that he battled like hell to get 'in', but having done so was never good enough to go on and make a significant score, and that is a cardinal sin in top level cricket - any high level cricketer will agree that if you get 'in' you have to make it count, and he never did - alas, he wasn't quite good enough.

Did you miss the bit where we all explained he was playing his first major test series in challenging circumstances?

Nobody is arguing that he proved himself as a Test player in that series. The consensus does appear to be that he deserved further chances to establish one way or the other.

Author Topic: Careers Cut Short Before Their Prime? (Read 9870 times)

SD

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billyb

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SD

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ppccopener

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edge

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Jimbo

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edge

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Jimbo

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Manormanic

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Manormanic

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tehhaz

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Kulli

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Buzz

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golders

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Manormanic

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