Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Cricket Training, Fitness and Injuries => Topic started by: Buzz on May 05, 2011, 11:43:58 AM
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Todays technical batting question is for those middle order players on how they approach the first few overs when they walk out to bat and they are faced with 2 spinners.
My view is that this summer we will see more spinners playing as sides look to bowl their overs faster, also batsman are not used to walking out to bat with fielders around the bat and the overseas spinner giving it a rip.
And before anyone asks, I have no easy solution, I just suggest to players they need to trust their technique against spin and ensure they move their feet will and don't go "hard" at the ball with their hands - but this is easy to type, but not easy to put into practice when you walk out to bat at 120-3 in the 27th over knowing you need to get 250+ inside your 50 overs...
what are people's views?
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Early on in an innings I think it's very important to play with the spin and not against it and to try and be as positive as you can without taking silly risks. I look to score regularly in ones and two's, putting a bit of pressure back on to the bowler. Think your right about the foot movement too, good footwork is probably a key attribute. Fact is, if the spinner is that good then most are going to struggle as it is a real talent to be able to play them well and even some of the best players have problems.
Playing the ball as late as possible is one thing I have been told by an ECB coach but that requires more talent than I have!
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I tend to think a bit of watching and a quick chat with the outgoing batsman are important ie. know what the spinners are bowling before you get out there and the pace of the wicket ie. big turn, low/slow wicket etc
I generally take a bit of a look in the first few overs and restrict my shot selection to cutting/sweeping - shots I consider safe on most decks to bad balls that pitch. Looking "busy" is vital and trying to move the field by pinching singles is vital to ensure you don't get bogged down. It's easier said than done, but playing with the spin and nudging an offie towards square leg is one way of doing it - just depends on the batters preferred shots.
Once I've seen all the tricks and worked out the angles of each spinner, I re-assess and decide how best to attack the spinner. If he flights it but fairly slow then getting down the pitch is an option. Likewise a flatter spinner may be easier to drive or late cut. Big spin requires more crease play but can open up the lap sweep if the guy has to bowl it outside off.
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Watch the ball/hand/fingers - From the hand, in the air and off the pitch. The earlier you see the behaviour the better but we can’t all read all the variations. If you at are the non-strikers end do not miss an opportunity to watch all the bowler’s tricks from close up!
Utilise the forward press. Have a solid base to play from -A half step forward towards the ball just before release. Hold your body shape and balance. Get onto the front foot as the ball is about to be released, to push forward or back depending on flight and length. Stay light on your feet.
Higher backlift, slower downswing. Keep the head still
Keep the ball on the ground. Assess the conditions/bowler/field placings/match situation. Play with good intent to score, don’t get bogged down, this plays into the bowler and captains’ hands.You may have to take some calculated risks but look to be positive and put the pressure back on the opposition. Part of any game plan would be to rotate the strike. This keeps the scoreboard moving and does not allow the bowler to bowl to a plan. For example, you may go over the top (straight). The captain could put a man back and you can then milk the singles to that position.
Should pay more attention to my own advice as was out to a pie chucker on Saturday.
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I play a low enough standard to know that any spinner will either bowl at least 1 crap ball an over, or otherwise, are not really moving the ball anyway, so it makes it easier to trust your technique.
I have played at ECB premier league standard against various international spinners - safe to say it was mostly a case of me having all the gear and no idea! (although I did once play a somewhat spectacular late cut for four to Raul Lewis' quicker ball)
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Very rare I go out against spinners batting at 3 but treat them as any other bowler tbh I know my scoring areas and use them not going to say too much as there is an opposition spinner on here ;)
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its all about your technique and your shot selection/ shot strengths. all the previous posts pretty much sum up how i play spinners. I bat 3 so dont always go out to face a spinner first up (depends how good our openers have started) I use the forward press but have a habit of going hard at the ball early on so i try and relax, play late with the spin, wait for the bad ball and in between push and nurdle the ball around. once you have the pace and have seen a decent amount of deliveries then its easier to bring out the slog sweep or get down the track with more confidence. I am a bit of a sweep addict. It can be used to put the bowler of their lengths and rotate the strike well just depends on which sweep you play. As much as i like slog sweeping it for 4 sometimes the paddle is just that bit safer and gives better results
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I can't play the sweep :(
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You just need to play your strengths..Don't play shots that you can't play with confidence
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I can't play the sweep :(
I can't play the sweep either, unless the ball is going to be a low full toss. I tried to play the sweep to a ball on sat, I embarrassed myself it was such an woeful waft.
I think there are some good thoughts here so far - keep them coming!
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I had an interesting one as an opening bat last Saturday. The oppo opened with an offie with the new ball, and he was fairly handy. I just sat in and waited for the bad ball, but not many were forthcoming. Was an interesting problem to deal with, and not one I see very often.
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The sweep is my best shot to the spinners whether for one or 4/6 it's my get out of jail shot if nothing else is working
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we get the odd spinner opening too. Must admit as a club we have done it a few times and its worked well. Surprising how many openers just panic. Look at strauss in the world cup. Looked like he had never seen a spinner before.
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Nothing too complicated for me. At our standard mid off and mid on will more than likely be back for a spinner so I normally knock it down the ground for 1. If the spinner is giving it a rip then I'd bat on leg for a leg spinner and off for an off spinner to play with the spin and also takes lbw out the equation.
Seeing as I bowl legspin myself I love batsman coming down the pitch as I turn it alot. Also batsman at my level don't tend to pick variation so of my 8 wickets this season, around 3 or 4 have been taken with wrong 'uns. Should the batsman pick me I bowl any variation less often and concentrate on the stock ball. I know that flight is possibly more threatening against someone who can pick me as they will get bored and go big against something tossed up.
That's how I roll anyways. Always good to pick up some stuff from other forumites though.
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...surprisingly I can play the reverse sweep pretty effectively
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thats one shot ive never really seen the benefit of playing. dont get me wrong Eoin morgan plays it like a legend but id rather late cut or drive it.
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Get a solid base, you dont want to be hitting the ball on the move
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When I come out to a spinner or two, I tend to take a ball or two to just see what turn, if any, they get.
I find having a look for the new batsman quite overlooked nowadays - I've seen a lot of people get out to our leggy on their first or second ball trying an elaborate heave over mid-wicket.
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ive found the reverse sweep easier to learn than the conventional. also, with most spinners opting for a leg side sweeper or something similar its a real good way of scoring behind square on the off side where they arent expecting (with a lack of pace on the ball) so plenty of runscoring opportunities
learn the (No Swearing Please) off it in nets before you play it in a game though, or you'll most likely make a fool of yourself!
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I would start off extremely positively against spin as they don't like to be got after. It only takes 1 or 2 hits to get men moving into the deep, from there nudge and nurdle the ones/twos whilst keeping an eye on capitalising on boundaries.
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I try to move my feet positively but always have a couple of sighter balls. If it's there to hit I've started to throw the kitchen sink at it and it often works!
I tend to try not to get too bogged down and try to rotate the strike, as choppy said hitting one boundary moves fielders back. I had an agricultural sweep-like shot down the ground on Sunday and this moved the man back meaning I could play riskless shots for 1s...
Obviously there are different schools of thought but so long as you are positive and try not to get bogged down you should do well in my opinion; there are always a couple of bad balls in every spell, you just always have to put them away! :)
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nothing like dragging up a vintage topic sometimes...
In this case Aakash Chopra has written a super piece on CricInfo today, as many of you know I am a big fan of Aakash's writing and this is no exception. However the one thing he doesn't mention here is that you need to have absolute confidence in your shot selection if you are looking to go over the top early, coming down the wicket - so you need to practice. Also practice coming down the wicket and hitting the ball along the ground, which is a really good skill to have as a batsman and can lower the risk of the shot you play, but still put off the bowler.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/579722.html
Be bold, decisive: How NZ should play Indian spin
A quick course on playing spin in the subcontinent
Aakash Chopra
After losing 2-0 to a weedy West Indian side, New Zealand slumped to an innings defeat in their first Test in India. It would take a brave man to put his money on them in the second Test in Bangalore. The loss in Hyderabad only underlined the gap between New Zealand and the major Test-playing nations.
Over the years though, New Zealand had gained the reputation of a team that always punched above their weight. Their courage and the never-say-die attitude made up for the lack of the skills needed to excel in different conditions.
On their tour of India in 2003-04, which was my debut series, New Zealand drew both Test matches, and even had India follow on in Mohali. They were routed in the ODIs when they visited in 2010-11, but secured two draws in the three-Test series. They have rarely won in India but haven't surrendered before as feebly as they did in Hyderabad, and that must hurt their fans. The pitch deteriorated a lot faster than many expected it to and had enough in it for the spinners from the second day, yet it was far from being unplayable.
Susceptibility to pace and bounce tends to get far more attention than weakness against spin. That's perhaps because, unlike pace bowlers, spinners don't pose a physical threat but the truth is that being bamboozled by spin can cause long-lasting mental scars.
With the second Test only two days away, New Zealand must be working overtime to find ways to counter India's potent spin threat. Here are a few things their batsmen should keep in mind while taking on R Ashwin and Pragyan Ojha in Bangalore.
Decisive footwork
Read the ball from the hand, not from the pitch, because it will give you a little more time to react. Use both feet to either get to the pitch of the ball with a long forward stride or to go deep inside the crease to shorten the length. Spinners are at their most dangerous when the batsman refuses to get to the pitch of the ball to smother the lateral movement off the surface. That's what New Zealand did in Hyderabad. Most of their batsmen were rooted to the crease and offered unconvincing forward prods to everything that was pitched up, in hope that the ball would find the middle of the bat. Their shots lacked conviction and resulted in many bat-pad catches. Some New Zealand batsmen started shuffling to counter the spin, but little did they realise that sideways movement within the crease can only be effective against fast bowlers because it helps you play in the second line. Only a decisive forward-and-backward movement can save the day against spinners. In England, Hashim Amla did that beautifully against Graeme Swann.
Pushing the fielders back
On turning pitches, you must be aggressive, for no matter how good your defensive technique, the odd ball will turn and jump unexpectedly to abruptly end your stay. If you only concentrate on defending, as New Zealand did in the second innings, the spinners won't feel threatened and will continue to flight the ball. To extract optimum spin and bounce off the surface, spinners must give the ball some air. This becomes easier if the batsman has gone into a shell. All quality players of spin take the aerial route really early in the innings, because it forces the bowler to not only push the fielders back but to also cut down on flighting the ball. Once the fielders are pushed back, batsmen find it easier to rotate the strike, and the moment a spinner starts bowling flatter, he plays into your hands. MS Dhoni did it efficiently against Jeetan Patel the moment he walked in to bat in Hyderabad.
To many batsmen the sweep shot is the only attacking response to the turning ball. But they must understand that they'll get the right balls to sweep only after forcing the bowler to bowl flatter and shorten his length by stepping down the track regularly. Wait for the bowler to release the ball so that he can't alter his length or line, and advance against balls that go higher than the eye level.
Playing late, using soft hands and getting the weight transfer right
Since spinners bowl a lot slower than the quicks, it's tempting to reach for the ball. But if you're defending, you must resist the temptation and allow the ball to come to you, as you would when facing a fast bowler. Once you have allowed the ball to come to you, play it as delicately as possible with soft hands. Let the top hand remain firm while barely holding the bat with the bottom hand.
It's imperative to transfer the body weight at the right time. Whether you are defending or playing an aggressive shot against a spinner on a turning pitch, if you transfer your weight a fraction earlier, you will commit yourself to the stroke and struggle to play the ball along the ground. And if you are a fraction late, you won't get any power in your shots.
Playing the turning ball on a crumbling pitch requires just as much expertise as playing the moving ball on a fast and bouncy pitch. Even after taking a crash course in playing the turning ball, New Zealand may not be able to avert defeat, but it's worth using every ounce of their energy to at least delay the inevitable.
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As Buzz can testify I take the view that spinners are to be smacked out of the ground, and often play the head in the air slog with disastrous consequences!
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Opening up with Spinners using the old bowl should be Banned, always gets me out :o
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nice little piece from Graham Thorpe on playing spin in Asia
Images
Graham Thorpe
guardian.co.uk, Tue 13 Nov
2012 08.00 GMT
Blogpost
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Graham Thorpe, who is England's lead batting coach based at the National Cricket Performance Centre in Loughborough, played a number of famous innings on the subcontinent. He reached a century including a single boundary against Pakistan in
Lahore in November 2000, then steered England to a series-clinching victory in the
third Test in the Karachi gloom. The team then moved on to Sri Lanka, where Thorpe
tamed Muttiah Muralitharan with an unbeaten 113 in the first innings then hit 32 not
out in the second as England made hard work of a tense run chase to secure a 2-1 series
win by four wickets. That was their last series win in Asia, excluding Bangladesh.
1 Be prepared
To have a method is very important in Asia. It's always about being absolutely clear.
When pressure's applied with men around the bat it's about being able to trust your
technique and knowing exactly what your higher risk strategy might be at certain times.
When I got a century against Pakistan in Lahore [which included a single boundary], I
didn't play off the front foot unless it was a drive. Goochy [Graham Gooch, England's
batting coach] would probably be saying a similar thing – you only play off the front foot if
you're driving, you're not prodding.
We would discuss a first innings pitch compared with a second innings pitch, and they're very different. It might be that in the first innings sometimes, you don't have to sweep, the sweep doesn't have to come into it if your footwork is good and you pick length well; you can get away with rotating the strike and playing well off the back foot.
Second innings it can be much harder if it's turning more sharply. Then you need other
options. I often try to talk about creating at least two options when you're facing spin. I
think you have to be able to delay that decision-making right to the last point. You
might see a ball turn in England and the minute you see it pitch, you play your shot. It might not be so in India. It might stay low, bounce more, so being strong on both legs is very important. Stability on the back leg is important, speed in terms of pushing back on the front leg is important as well. If you're quick in those areas you can have a chance to rotate the strike, which takes pressure off.
The preparation time is better than it was last time so they've had a good amount of time to start to be clear in their heads. Each one is different as well. For each player, know where your slightly higher risk shots might be. If you've got three or four men around the bat and you want to disturb it a little bit, where's that going to be? And where are your tick-over shots as well – that's important. If you don't tick over the bowlers love it, they can keep bowling at one bloke. So it's important that you are able to keep rotating.
2 Stay in the moment
I know it's obvious but it's important to get a good start, for confidence. But even then, you can have a good first morning and things can happen quick. That's why you can never look too far ahead. It's a general rule in Test cricket but over there you can be going along quite nicely and all of a sudden – boom – the noise could go up, they take a couple of wickets, you know what it's like, a few men come around the bat … so it's important for players to be able to handle that pressure and to do that you've got to be clear on your game plan.
You should always be telling yourself, even if you're going well, just add two wickets on
to this and all of a sudden the game's changed. So even when you're playing well you're
trying to remind yourself still to play with freedom but, you know, still control.
3 Take your chances
Once you get into batting in Asia, if you get into a pattern, it follows a similar sort of path. You have to at times get used to men round the bat, know what your low- and high-risk shots are going to be in that environment. It is more weighted to spin bowling but clearly as well you tell the guys not to ignore the new ball and the ball mid-afternoon which may start to reverse. It's a very challenging environment. Last winter, you could say that England fell down in two Test matches which they could have won. They didn't chase well in Abu Dhabi and they had an opportunity in one of the games in Dubai. That's the fine line. Playing in Asia, you've got to seize your opportunity or the series could
be gone. You sense that if England can stay in Test matches for a period of time
then you'll have a chance. But if you don't take your chance in Asia it's not often that it's
going to come back your way. The type of innings Kevin Pietersen played in Colombo,
that's a match-changing innings. Then if you operate well as a bowling unit, which
in general England have, you can then apply pressure to the opposition. But you sense that runs are the key for England in this particular series. If you can get runs on the board you get the opportunity to stay in the game and put India under pressure.
Looking at this purely from a batting point of view, just as when I used to tour Asia, if we
don't get runs on the board, we're not going to be able to give our bowlers anything. But
if we get something on the board we've got a bowling attack which could cause some
trouble. It's a challenge, a very exciting challenge for a player. Your brain should be
pretty frazzled when you come off, because of the concentration.
If England win in India it will be a great achievement – just look at the stats. But am I an optimist?
Yes.
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ill read that when i get 10 mins! if i go into bat and the spinners are on straigh away i strugle! i need a bit of pace and bat on ball to get going
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I reckon it depensd - if we're talking clubbies than to be honest you can jts play them like medium pacers for the first threeor four overs, look to get in line and play the ball into gaps in the field, of which tere are bound to be a couple. Its when you have a slightly better standard of spinners that it gets more difficult - the ones who have a bit of variety allied to regular grip and bounce. Then its about picking the length early and looking to rotate the strike with intellgent running between the wickets.
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Look at gayles first over today against Bangladesh. That is how you start against spinners :D
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Nothing worse for the yips than strolling out to a spin bowler having freshly taken a wicket.
Even worse when you KNOW it's not even really turning, the prior batsman just wafted to early and got plumb LBW, and the bowler is an teenager usually playing his first game for the senior team >:(
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I think manormanic got it right - it depends how good they are. One thing to remember is that bad balls can get more wickets than good ones, so don't be intimidated by them just having taken one. Mind you, another reason to feel uncomfortable is that the keeper and slips will be standing very close and will probably be chirping away ten to the dozen.
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I never mind that. Besides, in club cricket, having slips to a spinner is more men that aren't there to stop me working singles around. Lets face it, there are very few people at that standard who are going to take anything but the biggest dolly in there off a spinner, and most spinners are not good enough to get you to nick one defending...
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Most spinners at my level usually give you at least one four ball an over. You just need to be patient and cash in on the bad balls
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Most spinners at my level usually give you at least one four ball an over. You just need to be patient and cash in on the bad balls
Very true at my level! :D
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However it always seems to be those 4 balls that take wickets cos you try and smash the granny out of them!
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I am typically English in that I'm rubbish against spin - one of the reasons I'm a spinner myself! So I hate facing spinners at any time. I think it's important to be able to play the sweep well against spinners - something I've been working on but no real improvement yet!
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One thing to remember is that bad balls can get more wickets than good ones
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I am typically English in that I'm rubbish against spin - one of the reasons I'm a spinner myself! So I hate facing spinners at any time. I think it's important to be able to play the sweep well against spinners - something I've been working on but no real improvement yet!
The only shot I ever used to play against spinners was the sweep... Now I've focussed and worked on other options, I seem to have forgotten how to play it!
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I use to love playing spinners and faster guys but now with time I have found that I struggle against spinners...most notably 2 seasons ago if I was going well and a spinner (Leggie) came on I was a guranteed wicket... so after doing some work on what works for me and what doesn't i ended up with....
Watch the flight, not the turn, if its going to land anywhere close to where i can get to (including stepping out) then I am going to make it there and either smash it out, play it for a single (rarely) or block it...its a lot easier to block a full toss/half volley then a turning spitting spinner...if its going to be a short one then i have lots of time to play it off the pitch...really bothers them too if they know you are willing to step out...
One thing that i have noticed i did and lot of others do is when they step out is most of them are moving down the leg side direction regardless of where the ball is, always move towards the ball to meet it either on the bounce or full toss...
I haven't swept a spinner in 2 years now, have had a lot more success against them with dancing down the track...
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I find I can't play anything turning away from me (leg-spin/sla) for toffee, whereas regular offspin isn't so much of a problem
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I find I can't play anything turning away from me (leg-spin/sla) for toffee, whereas regular offspin isn't so much of a problem
Try getting to the ball on the bounce...beware of the dip and drift...lots of practise needed in nets....my team captain is a very very very good leggie so I bowl to him fast outswingers or reverse with tampered ball in nets for hours and in return he bowls be leggies for hours :)
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I am typically English in that I'm rubbish against spin - one of the reasons I'm a spinner myself! So I hate facing spinners at any time. I think it's important to be able to play the sweep well against spinners - something I've been working on but no real improvement yet!
not sure I agree with that. Cutting is a more useful shot, particular if you can pick length well. It forces the bowler further up to you especially if you can play the cut late and off just short of a good length. Downside of cutting is if you have no pace to work with it's more liable to get you out. That said the pull shot comes in handy against very slow spin, as it becomes alot easier to hit the ball hard into leg than off. Sweep is not much use unless the guy can't bowl straight.
Takes practise but using your feet makes a big difference if you can judge flight.
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I find I can't play anything turning away from me (leg-spin/sla) for toffee, whereas regular offspin isn't so much of a problem
anticipate and use the turn to your advantage. Play slightly outside the ball to cover some of the spin if it's full - think of it as getting inside it. If it's short just open yourself up and pull (pitching leg/middle) or cut (off/outside). Be wary of the straight on delivery. I'm guessing you favour the legside?
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I think the guys that are toughest are the ones (and they are usually wily old birds) who generate a decent loop and have good control over line and length. The ones who can turn it square can give you free shots if they can't get line and length right.
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anticipate and use the turn to your advantage. Play slightly outside the ball to cover some of the spin if it's full - think of it as getting inside it. If it's short just open yourself up and pull (pitching leg/middle) or cut (off/outside). Be wary of the straight on delivery. I'm guessing you favour the legside?
If it's fuller, I try and get to the pitch, so I can hit it between mid-off and cow, depending on the line. Anything shorter I usually let it come to me and try to turn it to leg. Long hops are usually hoicked or pulled away if it's straight, or clubbed baseball style if it's a bit wider. I've lost all confidence in normal cut-shots, and only feel confident playing the late dab
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I've never liked sweeping - I figure for a tall batsman you spend so long getting down to ground level that you really do have to time everything absolutely perfectly to have any chance of getting the ball in the middle of the bat - and then only for a single or perhaps two. Nick is right that the cut is a better percentage shot - especially if the ball is going away from you - and I'd add to that the ability to get right back in the crease to work a good length ball with an almost dead bat.
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As an offspinner (and one who doesn't really bat at all), I least like short batsmen who sweep well, as the last thing you want when you have a new batsman at the crease is to be immediatly put on the defensive, and I find that often that happen when someone looks to sweep me right from the start of their innings. I guess the same applies with anyone who moves their feet right from ball one, but that somehow leaves me with more optimism that I'll still get them early than someone who sweeps, and that's despite me being a bowler who mainly relies on bounce (I'm 6'2) and variations in pace than real big spin.
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I find if I sweep nowadays, it's premeditated, as coming down from 6'2" when you've got a dodgy knee is quite difficult to do on the fly...
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I've never liked sweeping - I figure for a tall batsman you spend so long getting down to ground level that you really do have to time everything absolutely perfectly to have any chance of getting the ball in the middle of the bat - and then only for a single or perhaps two. Nick is right that the cut is a better percentage shot - especially if the ball is going away from you - and I'd add to that the ability to get right back in the crease to work a good length ball with an almost dead bat.
I agree, even though I don't sweep anymore onething to keep in mind is when sweeping make sure your bat is coming down from up-high instead of going from low to high...keep the ball on the ground and reduce the chance of top edging...
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I find if I sweep nowadays, it's premeditated, as coming down from 6'2" when you've got a dodgy knee is quite difficult to do on the fly...
When I sweep I look at the line first and then the length second. Outside off or leg is fair game. The slog sweep from off normally requires an offie tweaking it a bit and you must get the front pad outside off. Sweeping against the spin outside off is too risky. I'll sweep anything outside leg though. Biggest problem with the sweep is people over hitting it. Get a bit of bat on it and just help it around the corner.
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I remember reading Duncan Fletcher's book where we said much of playing spin was angles and present the bat face to that angle, I'll see if I can dig it out.
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oh, if you are going to sweep, you have to think very carefully about where you are trying to put the ball; if there is a man at 45 especially, you need to think about which side of him you are wanting to put the ball.
Thing is, I'm still not convinced that its a percentage shot for most players, at least not ordinary ones.
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Cricket commentators are often heard chastising batsmen for playing against the spin. This is always seen as dangerous and inadvisable: the right-handed batsman, for example, is encouraged to play the ball turning in from off onto the leg-side. Hitting such a delivery back to off is to court danger. And pity the unfortunate batsman who gets out flouting this precept.
To play against the spin is to violate cricketing orthodoxy. Commentators and analysts often look askance at batsmen playing an off-break to cover and coaches are often seen berating players for playing in such a manner. Pitchvision.com is a highly regarded website, offering useful tips on cricket, and it features elite players giving instructions on technique. It dispensed this bit of counsel:
If the ball is turning in (off spin to a right handed batsman); the best areas to score are between mid off and midwicket. If you keep an open body position with your hips towards the target area the swing of the bat can be straight. It’s safe because you are accounting for the ball turning back into you (playing with the spin)…Driving wide on the offside is more dangerous because you are playing against the spin.
It then goes on to say that the best scoring areas for deliveries turning from leg is between straight down the ground and cover.
Nothing out of the ordinary there. In fact, most cricket aficionados would agree. But if you really think about it, playing with the turn might just be more dangerous than playing against it. Consider this: to play the off-spinner to the leg side, in the direction that the ball is spinning is to play across the line. Hitting him back onto the offside, however, is to meet the ball with more of the face of the bat, and thus a safer way to play. In presenting the full face to the ball the batsman gives himself the greatest chance of finding the middle of the bat.
Brian Lara scored 688 runs at an average of 114.66 in a three-test series against Sri Lanka and Muttiah Muralitharan in 2001/2002. After the tour he recalled some advice he received from Sir Garfield Sobers. The great man suggested to Lara that he should play the offspinner “back to where he was coming from.” In other words, Sobers told him to play against the spin.
In his book Behind The Shades, Duncan Fletcher, current Indian cricket coach but then with England, tells of an incident, also in Sri Lanka, where Graham Thorpe was trying to decode Muralitharan. With Thorpe being a left-hander, Murali’s stock delivery would have been turning into him from leg.
Thorpe’s initial theory, based on previous advice, was that he needed to close himself off in his stance and look to hit the ball through the off side, even though, as we said, Muralitharan was pitching the ball on or outside the leg stump. I told him to think about how he could hit the ball back where it spins from, hitting a straight ball with a straight bat. The answer was to open up his stance and hit the ball to the leg side with a straight bat. That might seem like hitting against the spin to the old-timers, but the laws of geometry will back me up to prove that he was, in fact, playing a straight ball. (p. 129)
The advice Fletcher gave Thorpe is therefore similar to that which Sobers offered to Lara. And if their success against the Sri Lankan master is anything to go by, the advice seemed to have been very helpful. What this means is that batsmen, over the years, might not have been well served by this long accepted method of negotiating spin bowling that has been passed down for generations. Perhaps, therefore, coaches should no longer frown when they observe batsmen playing against the spin.
Read more: http://www.sportskeeda.com/2012/09/11/why-it-is-better-to-play-against-the-spin/#ixzz2C79OGCFV
Follow us: @SportsKeeda on Twitter | SportsKeeda on Facebook
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I either get bogged down quickly or try and smash then into the next town as Nick will confirm!! Give me pace any day
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i am going to try and bring the sweep into my game this season as its one shot i never ever play and i feel like i could be good at it :)
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I find being tall with decent reach I use that to my advantage against spin as I get down track quickly or big stride and sweep as playing years of hockey the sweep feels natural after years of slap passes
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given your agricultural array of shots I'm surprised you can't sweep Simdog. As already mentioned, sweep down on the ball, don't over hit and play the shot based on % of acceptable risk (ie. not hitting the stumps). Suggest you start with a paddle sweep as it will teach you the basics of getting the shot right ie. technique not power. Move onto placement and hitting balls finer/square. Only then move onto the risky slog/lap/reverse sweep from outside off.
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I can sweep easily enough - it's the getting up afterwards I'm afraid of!
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the sweep feels natural
I agree with this, I sometimes just find myself doing it. Maybe if it's pre-meditated it's a bit 'iffy'?
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was thinking just that - but going back to my earlier point, how many of us are supple enough that we have time to instinctively pick the ball and sweep it?
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me because I'm on the floor in the first place lol. I've found in the last few years that I "pick" the sweep on instinct. I don't get out it often and when I premeditate (normally in the nets for practise) it rarely comes off, so I play it naturally when the ball demands it. In one game towards the end of the season I saw the leg side sweeper was at cowcorner and decided to sweep between 45 and square leg. I had a left arm over bowling without much spin. Even then I waited for the right ball. 2 or 3 sweeps/boundaries later the sweeper went behind square and I tried to hit straighter with a straight bat instead.
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I think with me it's maybe the foot movement, if I take a big pace (back foot anchored in the crease) and I'm reaching for the ball, I'm down there anyway - but I'm not the tallest. :(
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playing 40+ over cricket i tend to bat at 5 and i prefer to face some pace on the ball to get my first 10 runs or so but after that id face spinners all day once iv got my eye in
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If its a bouncy pitch - no sweeping.
If its a turning pitch - try sweeping.
I have a different trigger movement for spinners than to fast bowlers.
Hope it helps.
Jag.
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I love playing against spin, I think the hardest part for batters 3,4,5 is that they can be sat still with a body almost resting, so it is easier to guide a few quick balls away whilst you warm up and get used to the pitch etc.
Whilst we never ever know when we will be required to bat, 2nd ball or 200th ball we have to stay properly warmed up, so that our feet are ready to move as we watch the ball.
I have team mates who tell me to sit still, but it is better for me if I jog around and practice shots, whilst I study the bowler.
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As soon as a spinner comes on to bowl, a lot of players minds go into overdrive with the questions common above... Should I sweep? Dare I play against the spin? How much is it turning? Etc etc. A lot of which are determined by one thing - length. This is something you can have more control over than you realise, if you look at some of the best players of spin in the world, the one thing they have in common is the ability to turn good length balls into those that are slightly short or that are over pitched. They do this by using the depth of the crease and also coming down the wicket and meeting the ball on the half volley. Whilst I believe it is the best way to combat spin, it is also imperative that you watch the ball carefully ie not going back to a ball you think is short of a length which infact turns out to be an arm ball, or coming down the track to one that has been held back by the bowler and you find yourself over stretching. As im sure has been noticed by most of the members of CBF, a fair few members of the England team have struggled on the subcontinent and have been guilty of being caught on their crease, or their bats been caught on the 'curtain rail'.. the reason for this.....Length.
Playing spin (much like cricket as a whole) at times can be overcomplicated. Watch the ball and move your feet, be it forward or back, be positive and determined in your movements.
Anyway this is just my two penneth be it right or wrong.
What do the good people of CBF think?
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welcome to the forum Karlo and cracking opening post.
I totally agree and the hawk eye stats used in Simon Hughes' blog on the telegraph back up what you say with pictures!
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Hi buzz, thanks for the welcome. I will check out Simon Hughes' blog and hopefully pick up a bit more.
P.s. thanks to whoever approved my application for membership, fantastic forum-glad to be part of it!
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Depends on the quality of the spinner, but if they're an offie then not too bad. Good stride in and look to get outside the line initially. Use you're feet and look to get down the track whenever possible - you can always pad up if you don't quite get there. If they're a good leggie and it's going both ways then tricky, especially if you're not picking it! Always through the best way is play back as far as you can, so that you've got more time, but be ready to drive when it's well up there - should heopfully put them off their length....
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never sweep in the Aire Wharfe
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you have to be positive, and use a big stride. i'd also say look to work the ball for singles and play straight early on.
dont get frustrated and just keep plodding along.
if you want to disrupt the spinner sweeping or coming down is perfect ..... but this needs practice
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I Generally go for the walk down the wicket and miss technique, sometimes coupled with the big heave and miss, but thankfully being an opener its only about once a year I face spin to start with and it always seems quite easy to play and work around after batting for a few overs and getting settled.
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That's where you go wrong, you should take the swish by numbers technique. Dot the first two balls then have a heave. #if you swing and miss, start again. Dot, dot, heave.
Everyone knows that's how to play spin.
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That's where you go wrong, you should take the swish by numbers technique. Dot the first two balls then have a heave. #if you swing and miss, start again. Dot, dot, heave.
Everyone knows that's how to play spin.
Don't forget the confused look at the deck after you miss "it cant have been my fault, the pitch must have misbehaved etc etc"
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never sweep in the Aire Wharfe
some good decks in the AireWharfe, I'm assuming that's a comment on the umpires :)
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Don't forget the confused look at the deck after you miss "it cant have been my fault, the pitch must have misbehaved etc etc"
Absolutely Karlo, it's never MY fault.
Joel
(or "Hewie" at Fattus calls me).
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here is a bit more from two nice chaps, mark and graham
Down the road from the England
players, their potential
successors have been practising
and playing under the charge of
two of their predecessors.
Graham Thorpe and Mark
Ramprakash, with 100 and 52
Test matches respectively for
England, are trying to groom the
next generation, in the shape of
the so-called Performance
Programme, to try to ensure that
it is better equipped than the
Englishmen who have come here
before. In future time spent in
India will be part of the training
for all potential England
internationals.
Thorpe, an excellent practitioner
in Asia who played two or three
of the most significant of all
innings by an England batsman,
said: “It is constantly hard work
for us to master the basic skill of
playing spin and really sticking
to it.
"Because of the environment
Asian players play in they can
pick length better. Ours have to
manufacture techniques so they
can stand up.
“We are always playing catch up
in a nutshell. I can only speak
for some of the work we do but
we can never think we have got
it. We should not be that
arrogant.”
Thorpe and Ramprakash will
complement each other as
batting teachers. The former was
profoundly successful in most
places but especially impressive
in Asia. His unbeaten 64 in the
dark at Karachi in December
2000 took England to one of their
other greatest away wins.
Months later he made 113no and
32no on a Colombo dustbowl to
achieve another superb victory.
The latter, who retired only last
summer, had the soundest
method of his generation of
batsmen. His temperament did
not quite match it. If he was
slightly unfulfilled as an
international cricketer, that may
make him a wiser mentor now.
He said: “The ups and downs in
my career should help me as a
coach. I can identify with
players perhaps sometimes trying
too hard, feeling under pressure
to make a mark or dealing with
disappointment. I feel I can
sympathise with guys out of the
team who have had international
experience but are back trying to
improve their game.”
Thorpe is endlessly riveting to
hear on the craft of batting.
When Graham Gooch, England’s
batting coach who also has a
fund of wisdom, calls it a day,
Thorpe will presumably succeed
him. He seems in his element
here.
“It is a job that is never done
playing spin,” he said. “It is
about having tempo. I have
always said it is being clear
about where your potential
boundary options are. If you
have four or five men around
the bat you want to get them out
so you need to know where your
attacking areas are.
“There is also a core method of
rotating the strike. That means
using the depth of the crease -
going forward or back to the
ball, trying to avoid that middle
ground which is a slight plant of
front foot or half cock position.
Before that it is about reading
length. That is vital. Then you
have to have a technique that is
quick and efficient so you can
work a ball into a gap.”
Thorpe did all of those things
well and as the England
Performance Centre batting
coach he has given the young
batsmen here tough practice
sessions the like of which they
will have never had before. In
some, he denies them the
opportunity to play the sweep,
the slog sweep or to hit over the
top, the preferred attacking
options for England players
against spin.
The Performance Programme
squad contains 17 players in all,
seven of them batsmen. No item
of groundwork is overlooked in
trying to improve them.
Ramprakash, who thinks his
future may be as a coach, said:
“It would have been amazing to
have what these kids have now. I
look on with envy, I really do
because of the opportunities they
have, the training methods to
improve, the attention to detail
both technically and mentally. It
is wonderful.
“They can be the best they can
be. Very importantly as well
there are people here working
them out as people.
"It is chalk and cheese to my
day. The attention to fitness is at
an unbelievable level. The
training the lads do is amazing.
It is all worked out for them.”
Ramprakash began in the
Middlesex team when Mike
Gatting, a superb player,
wonderful company and of the
last old-fashioned pros was still
captain.
“These days they have
supplement drinks at the end of
the game and recovery
techniques,” he said. “They are
one percenters but they add up.
When I first started recovery
techniques were probably a
curry and diet coke or watch
Gatt eat his curry and have a
few pints.”
To Eden Gardens then for
England where they have won
only once on Tony Greig’s tour
in 1976. They can expect more
trial by spin.
“Pace requires bravery,” said
Thorpe. “You can be hurt. You
will not be hurt playing spin but
if you don’t play it very well you
will look like a clown.” On this
tour at least, England can only
hope their supply of red noses
has run out.
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In my limited experience of opening against spin I don't want to let the bowler settle. Ill use my feel, rotate the strike and wait for the bad ball. The worst thing that can happen is you get bogged down and end up slogging. I don't mind sweeping of off spinners but find it harder against leg spinners, the reverse sweep I can play surprisingly well against leg spinners.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/20550214 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/20550214)
Good article on BBC website on Graham Thorpe and playing spin, especally what he does to reproduce spinning wickets in the nets, very clever.
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here is how not to do it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0pmsmkYRV4&feature=endscreen&NR=1
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where is the like button?
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Don't forget the confused look at the deck after you miss "it cant have been my fault, the pitch must have misbehaved etc etc"
From the non-strikers end this season I witnessed several of our players applying the: 'This guy can't turn it, I'll shoulder arms........ Oh!' technique... :(
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As a reluctant opener this season i didn't have to deal with spin too often. However i failed miserably against former first class player Muhammad Haroon (he's Mo Asifs agent/adviser) in a game where his side took the old ball after we dismissed them for under 70 inside 30 overs.
He had 2 men right under the bat, waiting, and 3 balls into the first over i plopped one straight into one of their laps. We ended up winning comfortably, with Haroons lob spin causing no-one else much bother.
I never used to have much problem with spin when batting at 5 or 6, but this was at a lower standard, every team in the league i play in now has at least one good spinner. I want to go back down the order as i don't really regard myself as an opener. But i'm slightly concerned at getting found out by better spin, especially because i haven't faced much spin for the last season and a half.
This thread has helped me quite a lot since i've decided to start working on spin in the past month or so. I shall be putting more of the tips into practice over the coming weeks, hopefully i'll get a thorough going over from our spinner at nets (he was at Notts for 5 years) and he'll help me get rid of all my mistakes before the summer.
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Read more at http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/sundries/aoc-book-club-the-plan-by-steve-james#00ShikpFXVrofdy6.99 (http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/sundries/aoc-book-club-the-plan-by-steve-james#00ShikpFXVrofdy6.99)
AOC Book Club: The Plan By Steve James
.This week Steve James – former England batsman turned Daily Telegraph journalist – joins AOC Book Club. Having played under Duncan Fletcher at Glamorgan, James is a student of his coaching practises and in the following extract from his award-winning account of England’s journey from officially the worst Test side to world No.1, he reveals how the Zimbabwean revolutionised the way many of England’s batsman played spin, through the introduction of the famed ‘forward press’.
If Fletcher is famous for one particular piece of coaching advice then it is surely his urging of batsmen to use the ‘forward press’. Apologies for becoming technical here, but I do feel it is an important part of the story.
Fletcher especially advocated this trigger movement against spinners, but liked it to be used at all times if possible. It is basically a small step forward – not a lunge, because it is important that the head is kept behind the front leg – to ready the batsman before the ball is bowled.
This is how Fletcher used to explain its use to his charges. ‘This is the deal, guys,’ he would say. ‘You have a million-pound job, but the only snag is that you can only get to work each day by bus. And there is only one bus. It arrives punctually every day at eight o’clock. If you are late for work, you lose your job. So you have decision to make: do you get to the bus stop early, on time, or late?’
The answer, of course, is that you want to get there early – the ‘there’ in this case being the pitch of the ball. Ideally you would want to arrive there bang on time, but then you would run the risk of getting there late.
Trigger movements are a very modern phenomenon. Or at least the attention paid to them certainly is. In the old days batsmen were taught to stand still before the ball was bowled. And there are some players who still do that. But the truth is, however unpalatable it may be for the old-timers, that was advice dispensed in an age when all play was conducted at a slower pace. It is a dangerous policy having to make a decision so early as to where the ball will pitch when you have no idea about the degree to which the ball might swing or seam. It is much better to make small initial movements (ensuring you are momentarily still at the point of delivery, of course: a moving head means that the camera that is your eyes takes fuzzy pictures) and then another smaller movement.
That is at the heart of Fletcher’s advocacy of the forward press. On turning pitches against wily spinners many wickets are often taken at the close-catching positions of silly point and short leg. If you do not move before the ball is bowled, you are taking a big stride towards the ball and therefore creating considerable momentum towards it. It is often hard in such circumstances to stop the ball deflecting to those close fielders. Fletcher’s ‘forward press’ makes it much easier to kill the ball stone-dead in defence. How I wish I could have ‘pressed’ against the spinners (I think I naturally did so against the seamers). Fletcher tried to get me to do it, but I was too long in the tooth.
In the wet early summer of 2011 during yet another rain delay at one of the Tests against Sri Lanka, Sky Sports showed a re-run of the 1999 Sri Lanka Test at The Oval, my second and last Test. There I was, for my very last act in international cricket, lunging forward without a ‘press’ to Muttiah Muralitharan, caught at silly point off the glove. QED.
The ‘forward press’ also makes the sweep shot much easier. And Fletcher was hugely keen on the sweep, and indeed the sweep/slog. He was adamant that, especially on subcontinental pitches, they were the safest shots to play. Again the old-timers might advise to advance down the pitch and hit the ball straight, which is clearly sound counsel if you can get to the pitch of the ball and negate any spin. But what if you don’t quite get to the pitch, and the ball is spinning sharply? By still trying to hit down the ground with a straight bat, you are actually playing across the line of the ball. By sweeping you can smother that spin and you don’t need to know which way the ball is turning.
Fletcher worked out that it is better to crouch in your stance against spinners (as you naturally do in the ‘forward press’). Again this went against traditional theory. Young spin bowlers are told to flight the ball above the batsman’s eye-line, but Fletcher reckons it’s best for the batsman to be underneath that line of the ball. He thinks it is easier to pick up its length from there, with its reference points simpler to spot.
Euclid would have been proud of Fletcher. Just like the Greek mathematician who was known as the ‘father of geometry’, Fletcher loves his angles. He was constantly reminding his players of the sort of alignment requited to ‘hit the ball back where it comes from’, as the old adage goes. But that adage could be nebulous in its meaning. Fletcher made sure he was always much more specific in his advice. For example, for a left-hander bowling over the wicket, the right-hander was told to try to the hit the leg-stump at the far end. Not the stumps, but specifically the leg-stump. Or for the South African Makhaya Ntini, who bowls from very wide on the crease, to try to drill the ball straight back at his body.
With spinners, especially those who turn the ball prodigiously, it is more difficult. The old advice was always ‘play with the spin’. Say for a right-handed batsman facing a sharp-turning off-break, that would usually mean his going across his stumps to play to leg. Or for a left-hander facing the same bowler from over the wicket to close himself off and play everything through the off-side. Well, Fletcher revealed this to be tosh. ‘Try and play a straight ball with a straight bat’ were always his words. So for the right-hander to the off-spinner, it would be best to stay leg-side of the ball and, if the length was right, to play through the off-side with a straight bat, even if a dozy commentator might say ‘He’s playing against the spin there!’
It’s easier said than done, however. Marcus Trescothick had all sorts of problems understanding it, so much so that Fletcher playfully went out and bought a protractor to slip under his bedroom door on tour in Sri Lanka.
The trip to Pakistan and Sri Lanka in the winter of 2000/01 was Fletcher’s chance to put all these methods and theories into practice. This was new stuff to the England players, and, while Fletcher was making it quite plain that he thought this to be the best method, he wasn’t forcing it on anyone. Talk of the ‘forward press’, though, and two names immediately spring to mind: Trescothick and Vaughan.
Vaughan was undoubtedly the quickest of the England players to adapt to it. ‘He didn’t speak to me about it for a year or so,’ says Vaughan, which is surprising since his debut had come in South Africa in the winter of 1999/2000 and before their Asian adventure England had not been faced with too much spin thereafter, ‘but I think he felt I was a quick learner so he was never afraid of giving me new ideas. My thought when playing the forward press was that you were basically playing a forward defensive before the ball got there. That was Fletch’s theory so that you had so much more time to decide what attacking shot to play.’
Trescothick had made his international debut the previous summer, and was very much a Fletcher pick. He hung on Fletcher’s word and was very soon earning himself the nickname ‘Fletcher’s Son’. ‘The forward press changed my game really,’ he says now. ‘I started learning it in Pakistan, came home and did loads of work on it over Christmas, and then went back to Sri Lanka and it clicked. I got a hundred in the warm-up match [against Sri Lanka Colts], and then got my first Test hundred in the first Test at Galle.’
He had a different way of thinking about it from Vaughan. Trescothick would fake as if going down the pitch to the spinner. ‘I found it really hard to get used to,’ he admits. ‘I got stuck at first, so I just practised. Learning the timing was key for me. When am I going to “press”?’ You can ‘press’ too early (‘fall asleep at the bus stop’ as Fletcher says, going back to his original analogy).
Alastair Cook would never be termed a Fletcher acolyte – he was very friendly with Flintoff and Harmison, playing darts with them regularly on tour – but he knew the importance of the ‘forward press’ (as well as moving his hands lower on the bat handle, which, as Fletcher suggested, gave him more control against the spinners and was a feature of Andy Flower’s batting style too) and worked hard on its implementation into his game. It took him eight months, but he cracked it and still uses it now.
Andrew Strauss, who was not to make his Test debut until 2004, did not take to Fletcher’s methods of playing spin immediately. He preferred to play as he’d always done. Then he embarrassingly padded up to Warne at Edgbaston in 2005 and was bowled. Having turned a huge amount out of the rough outside Strauss’s off-stump, it was heralded as a ball to match Warne’s first in Ashes cricket, the one that bamboozled Mike Gatting at Old Trafford in 1993, but in truth Strauss, having gone way across his stumps, had played it poorly. He went to Fletcher afterwards and admitted that he needed to change his method against spin. Hours of work on the Merlyn machine followed.
Read more at http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/sundries/aoc-book-club-the-plan-by-steve-james#00ShikpFXVrofdy6.99 (http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/sundries/aoc-book-club-the-plan-by-steve-james#00ShikpFXVrofdy6.99)
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I can't play the sweep :(
then use winter nets to learn how to play it!
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Cheers for that link Buzz, good read.
Can anyone point out some youtube of this 'forward press' technique?
Im trying to get on the front foot a lot more, and it would be great to see exactly how its meant to be done?
then use winter nets to learn how to play it!
Im another one who will be using nets to try and bring the sweep into my game
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then use winter nets to learn how to play it!
Please try to improve your grammar.
Every sentence should begin with a capital letter; this is a well known fact, thanks.