Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: Buzz on September 05, 2011, 01:52:54 PM
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Here is a little question for bat shavers...
When you receive a pressed and handled cleft for shaping, what is the best way of ensuring the bat shape maximises the performance of the willow. Is it by choosing the shape and start shaving, or by testing the willow finding the most responsive bit and then shaving accordingly.
If I were making a bat I would get a mallet and test the unshaped, but pressed cleft and mark on it where the best rebound of the bat was and make that the “middle” and then shape the bat accordingly. Is the middle a movable feast? And is this a reasonable approach for mass production (almost certainly not!)
But this seems totally the wrong way around – most people when making a bat choose a shape and go from there – making the assumption that the middle will effectively be where the largest bit of wood was. Given that CNC machines are used to manufacture many bats, it would be interesting to know if the shape of the bat was made to the willow or the willow made to the shape desired.
I hope that makes sense – in this case I have never held or tested a raw cleft – let alone tried to make a bat so am really pretty limited in my knowledge here. (which is why I am asking!!)
I should caveat myself by saying i won't be making any bats myself soon either...!
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interesting question Buzz.
im no way near even considering myself a bat maker( lucky to be called a bat shaper) but when ive had a variety of part mades and a variety of grades i always give them a hit first to see how good they are. All of them have been great ( were talking 10-15 clefts and all due to very good pressing) I have tended to shape them based on what i fancy at the time or who im making them for. I have no idea if thats the right way or not but they have all turned out pretty well if i do say so myself ( again due to the pressing and some concaving to get the pick up good)
From the ones i have hit i would guess without measuring that the best rebound were all in a similar position. slight variations but pretty much there or thereabouts. Id be interested to see if anyone has found any major movements in where the best rebound has been.
you should definately give bat shaping a go.
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I would have thought that the art of making a bat is creating a shape that maximises the middle area post pressing - I think if you add in can you press a bat to make the "middle" in different places life would get way too complicated - hence why I have started with a pressed and handled - but unshaped - cleft...
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No disrespect when I say this but a handled cleft gives the game away as the hard work has already been done by your chosen supplier.
I received some part mades a few years back here in Thailand and the chap up the road copied a profile I had in stock and turned out some lovely bats (granted they were not AOC Award Winning as they had not started that sharad yet).
Bottom line was he made a cricket bat from a part made and had never seen the game in his life only the cricket kit I have here. People that have a feel for wood just have a feel for wood. All bats were sold with nice labels and no one had a clue they were made in Thailand !!!
So all in all this bat making skill is a load of ballcocks (within reason) , with all the machinery available now it's just a hobby for some and those that choose to work the hours make a living out of it.
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James - I appreciate that the press is king, but saying anyone with a feel for wood can make a bat doesn't answer the question - which is very much about making the best of what you have with the willow - is it possible to have a bat which has been pressed to have a naturally low middle, but you try to make it into a bat with a high middle - how will that effect the performance - and if it doesn't then the pick up will be loads better...
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If the cleft has been naturally pressed to produce a low middle then that is what the supplier feels is the best way of getting the most out of a cleft.
The bat makers try and confuse you guys , if a pro's name is mentioned the middle is LONG and if paddy down the pub who plays some Taverners cricket on a Friday evening uses the same bat it's a PLANK !
I'm sure high quality cabinet makers could well push a low middle up a tad but not to the extent you may wish for.
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James, you are spieling this out 2nd hand though - by your own admission you don't actually make bats - Buzz question is directed by those that do, so I reckon it's best actually letting that select group of people answer the question (maybe you could refer your Thai friend to the forum and he could supply a 1st hand account)
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James - I appreciate that the press is king, but saying anyone with a feel for wood can make a bat doesn't answer the question - which is very much about making the best of what you have with the willow - is it possible to have a bat which has been pressed to have a naturally low middle, but you try to make it into a bat with a high middle - how will that effect the performance - and if it doesn't then the pick up will be loads better...
So here's an interesting addendum to the question. If pressing is uniform across the length of the blade, then the CoR should be constant across that length. The middle is a function of the MMI, which in turn is a function of the position of mass, and as James Laver has done with his Legend, the distribution of mass is elongated to increase the middle size. I can't imagine that there would be significantly different variation in the mass of the wood over the pressed area of the blade in order for it to make a difference on the position of the middle? Or have I got my understanding of the principles confused?
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Tim - effectively I have no idea about what you are talking about, but yes i think we are moving along the same lines.
It is just I have three or four bats at home with the major mass of wood in different places and the pick up is different, but realistically the position of the middle of the bat isn't massively different - however in one bat the bulk of wood is higher meaning that the pick up is better and that I have more weight for my money... So the question is therefore now split I suppose - when the bat is pressed, is it pressed uniformly throughout the blade or not - then does the spine height across the blade change the position of the middle.
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@ Tim , base pressing is uniform but not for the final pressings.
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@ Tim , base pressing is uniform but not for the final pressings.
But doesn't that mean that the final pressing takes place dependent on the shape of the underlying bat?
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@ Tim (sorry for the @ as the quote function is also knackered) here on my ISP.
The final pressing will take place as you say but will also be in the capable hands of the presser who should again know how to get the best out of the selected cleft that has been shaped based on the specs of the started quality of that cleft.
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All of which is fine - but if you have a part made bat - does where the highest point of the spine have an impact on where the middle is?
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The highest point will be a guide for sure. Again the quality of the bat maker will make the most of it for the requested specs (within reason of course).
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has anyone got any first hand experience on this?
I'm really interested in peoples experiences
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I have made bats from handled/pressed clefts and because they are pre pressed the middle will generally be in a pre-determined position of mid-low. This will have an effect on the best place for the middle.
If you say 'ok, im after a part-made for a bat such as a GM Flare' then the bat is pressed with a slightly gentler bow higher up, having it pressed with the bow low down, like many sub-continent style bats would be pointless as the most responsive part of the bat would be lower than the majority of the willow in cleft. It would still play well enough but you wouldnt have the optimum performance of meat in the bat and the best pressed area of the cleft...
Does that make any sense?
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thanks, you have answered both parts to the question! I think... what you are saying, if I have read this right, is that in a part made cleft the middle is already determined, so it is up to the shaver to make the best use he can of that.
nice. another of my quandaries solved... thanks Dan!
the second part of your answer goes some way to explaining the indifferent performance of a previous bat of mine, despite it having lovely grains and a nice pick up...
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tongue question?
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I'm not sure my 2 part mades count as enough experience, and my method for finding the best part of the blade isn't the most scientific!!
Before I started the 2nd I tapped it up with a mallet and based on feel and noise thought it was good lower down so I left the bulk of the wood fairly low down which is what I wanted to do, there isn't much to write home about from about half way up the blade but the bottom half has felt very nice both times I have used it in matches.
I have a grade 1 part made to have a go at next and that feel and sounds better off more of the blade so I'll probably leave the majority of the wood in a mid to high position with that one.
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sounds good, you have more experience than me! it is all useful information.
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I would say a very high % of pressing is standard for all bats, any part made, to full branded manufacturered bats
So, basically there is no distinction made between one bat model or another! Final pressing stuff is for something else not performance 99% of the time, it is basically something you've read and thought he knows what he is talking about so it must be right
The shift is to do with something else....
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marvellous, welcome back norbs!
something else? must be the genius of the pod man...!
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Dan is right in a round about sort of way and I see Tim talks about MMI and CoR. This relates to and includes a whole raft of stuff. Like I've said before CoR is simple to see but complex with regards to the aspects that contribute to it.
The shift is more then likely due to the centre of mass shift via a bow [as per Dan] adding a grip, bat profile etc. This shift effects the centre of percussion and therefore the rebound qualities of the bat itself. If you can shift this, half knowingly ;-), based on pickup, mass and shape on an organic piece of willow then you are looking at each piece on a individual basis which is some peoples niche. If you are making 10's of thousands you go for an average and some will be better then others in that respect [but we know that already jjb bat for example]
Hope that helps
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Dan is right in a round about sort of way and I see Tim talks about MMI and CoR. This relates to and includes a whole raft of stuff. Like I've said before CoR is simple to see but complex with regards to the aspects that contribute to it.
The shift is more then likely due to the centre of mass shift via a bow [as per Dan] adding a grip, bat profile etc. This shift effects the centre of percussion and therefore the rebound qualities of the bat itself. If you can shift this, half knowingly ;-), based on pickup, mass and shape on an organic piece of willow then you are looking at each piece on a individual basis which is some peoples niche. If you are making 10's of thousands you go for an average and some will be better then others in that respect [but we know that already jjb bat for example]
Hope that helps
Doesn't where a person holds the bat also affect the centre of percussion though, as it moves correspondingly with the pivot point? And I'm sure that I've seen something on the web somewhere (I'll have to try and find it) that goes into the impact of vibrational bending, which I'm not sure how cane handles and rubber springs affect versus solid wood?
Sorry if I'm getting all nerdy on you Buzz, I'm just an Engineer at heart, and I find it intriguing.
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Doesn't where a person holds the bat also affect the centre of percussion though, as it moves correspondingly with the pivot point? And I'm sure that I've seen something on the web somewhere (I'll have to try and find it) that goes into the impact of vibrational bending, which I'm not sure how cane handles and rubber springs affect versus solid wood?
Sorry if I'm getting all nerdy on you Buzz, I'm just an Engineer at heart, and I find it intriguing.
Yes Tim to a certain extent the hand position is a pivot point and will effect the centre of mass as does the swing speed and that is why pickup is related to this and therefore to use an example why changing the number of grips or handle weight can effect the centre of precussion.
Impact of vibration bending/handle composition is more related to the aCoR of the bats then anything else so in this context, the shifting of the middle, it isnt really part of the answer.
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so as a basic most clefts have the best responsive area in the same/similar place and the 'middle' is determined by the high point of the spine which is moved to improve pickup/ balance? so they dont have to be in the same place but the most responsive area will respond greater if it is?
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so as a basic most clefts have the best responsive area in the same/similar place and the 'middle' is determined by the high point of the spine which is moved to improve pickup/ balance? so they dont have to be in the same place but the most responsive area will respond greater if it is?
johners77 I'm slightly confused by all that above but will answer what I think you are asking.... [In the big boy world] Most clefts run through a press will all be pressed the same [pressure] for the production run unless you start getting a few poppers. Adjusting the press when you are doing loads of clefts a day isnt really feasible. That means you will get variations from piece to piece, as willow is an organic material. There will be an average though so it won't be shocking. In that sense the middle is in the same place until you start shaping and balancing a bat. So you need to understand your shape and limits for pickup/balance. You shouldn't really be moving this willy-nilly solely for balance purposes as it effects the bat performance via the centre of mass when the bat is swung, it is all interlinked in that sense
To say the middle is at the high point of the spine is incorrect, it is generally above or below this point and that is based on the shape and a few of the things I explained in a previous post. I'm sure you all would have noticed that the middle of your bat isnt actually at the spine high point when you hit it out of the screws and feel nothing in you hands when you've hit it. That said volume in the hitting area also adds to the power of the bat so it cant be just discarded.
[As you've made a few, I think some advice if I can?] Basically a bit of thought in the bat profile and understanding what shapes can do what helps immensely also what you doing when it is pressed or how it has been pressed. At the end of the day this can all be as complex or as simple as you want it to be but I think something that is all important for both aspects [simple or complex] is understanding the shape what, where, why and how it performs that gives you a great baseline on weights, middle positions, bow or not etc etc
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All this Norbs tech talk makes the anticipation of receiving a new SAF all the greater!
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johners77 I'm slightly confused by all that above but will answer what I think you are asking.... [In the big boy world] Most clefts run through a press will all be pressed the same [pressure] for the production run unless you start getting a few poppers. Adjusting the press when you are doing loads of clefts a day isnt really feasible. That means you will get variations from piece to piece, as willow is an organic material. There will be an average though so it won't be shocking. In that sense the middle is in the same place until you start shaping and balancing a bat. So you need to understand your shape and limits for pickup/balance. You shouldn't really be moving this willy-nilly solely for balance purposes as it effects the bat performance via the centre of mass when the bat is swung, it is all interlinked in that sense
To say the middle is at the high point of the spine is incorrect, it is generally above or below this point and that is based on the shape and a few of the things I explained in a previous post. I'm sure you all would have noticed that the middle of your bat isnt actually at the spine high point when you hit it out of the screws and feel nothing in you hands when you've hit it. That said volume in the hitting area also adds to the power of the bat so it cant be just discarded.
[As you've made a few, I think some advice if I can?] Basically a bit of thought in the bat profile and understanding what shapes can do what helps immensely also what you doing when it is pressed or how it has been pressed. At the end of the day this can all be as complex or as simple as you want it to be but I think something that is all important for both aspects [simple or complex] is understanding the shape what, where, why and how it performs that gives you a great baseline on weights, middle positions, bow or not etc etc
thanks for the advice norbs