Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: Tom on February 13, 2009, 04:45:02 PM
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Interested to hear thoughts on what makes a batmaker:
Do they have to make the bat from scratch e.g from cleft and then pressing themselves. Or can they handfinish bats (basically a cleft and handle)
As a buyer or even a batmaker what would you consider a batmaker/podshaver and is there a seperate category for part-time/hobby batmakers/hand finishers.
Interested not because of any brands, but because I am looking to craft on my return from India.
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For me, a podshaver should be controlling the key determinants of balance and performance. So, shaping and (especially) pressing are critical. And they should be able to consistently make well balanced bats rather than sporadic masterpieces. Ideally they should also have a good supply of high quality willow but that might depend on scale and in my mind should not detract from podshaving skill. Handles could be insourced but should be high quality.
Having said that, I admire and envy hobbyists who can make good bats without formal training/apprenticeship.
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I would say there is a certain amount of skill involved in both of the aspects you mentioned... That is the bat maker that presses his own bat and the bat maker that doesn't.
The way I see it pressing is hugely important to the performance of a bat. Cricket bat manufacturers that press there clefts the same way, you cant say they have any real skill in that aspect of the process. It is easy to under press a cleft and then say knock it in, similarly it is easy to over press a bat and it even easier to a buy a press and press every cleft the same way but it is hugely difficult to get the pressing right for each cleft that is run through the press.... I wont go to my theories on pressing clefts here....
OK on to the shaping.... shaping a bat is fairly straight forward you could become very good at making a particular profile / shape but again it is about variation. Cleft variation mass volume differs and therefore balance where the sweet spot will be in relation to the middle etc etc. If you make your standard shape for a low density cleft the same way as you shape a high density cleft then you not really doing anything apart from whittling wood. If you shape a bat according to its natural benefits then you are on to something...
My personal opinion is that if you do both well you can call yourself a Master Bat Maker if you do the shaping bit well then you can call yourself a bat maker / podshaver.
If you do neither very well you may as well buy them and sticker them and call yourself a retailer...
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Norb's classification of Master Bat Maker (or "Mistri" in the sub-continent) is more precise to describe what I meant.
And I fully second his point about the importance of variations rather than churning out 1-2 standard profiles. In fact, I'd argue that for the bat maker who is not pressing but only shaping, this is a must-have skill. And this skill can be greatly honed by developing a deep understanding of the game to be able to translate a normal player's needs (expressed in language like type of pitches, back-lift and bat speed etc.) into the right profile and pick-up. Clearly, the pros know exactly what they want so its less relevant to them. I guess they will mostly be valuing consistency.
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Personally I think there is a clear difference between companies who make bats and batmakers.
A batmaker must care about every bat as it represents him/her and satisfy the customer perhaps by being willing to try something different. Trying their upmost to get the best out of each piece of willow.
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i agree with beachcricket. treat every bat as if your making it for yourself! also, perfectionism is needed for batmaking, to get it just right!
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To be a good/great batmaker I feel the following are important:
Passion - to learn and experiment
Creativity
Skill (which can be learn't and developed over a period)
artistic inclination
self belief
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To be a good/great batmaker I feel the following are important:
Passion - to learn and experiment
Creativity
Skill (which can be learn't and developed over a period)
artistic inclination
self belief
I'm sorry but that sounds like an aprentice not a batmaker
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The original question was “what makes a bat maker.” Isn’t this someone who has this job as his/her main job or source of income? I changed a plug once does that make me an electrician? While I’m at it I also topped up my washer fluid in my car so I must be a mechanic, I organised a bookshelf once so must be a librarian. I also decided myself which colour to paint my own walls so I must be an interior designer.
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(https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/aircraft/878673d1416937459-ah-1g-cobra-attack-helicopter-98bdcab5.jpg)
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Great question Tom. I have had this discussion time and time again with my bat maker partner. We believe it is an industry that would benefit from an accreditation system. Here in Australia, we have a self appointed cowboy that runs a five day course and bang! You are a bat maker. We would fully support an international association that can be a voice for the industry, as opposed to ex players positioned on committees within the MCC making statements they have no right to make. The true craftsmen (and women) are under massive threat from garage, or bedroom brands that are sticker brands and essentially dilute the role of the crafting in the industry. These cowboys are motivated by the success of the large marketing companies that use the cricket bat as a billboard for tv exposure by presenting themselves as a cricket brand. We believe an accreditation system will protect the craft from extinction, sort the cowboys from the crafters and give credit where credit is due. Establish actual apprenticeship standards. Most importantly, be a voice for an industry under huge economic pressure from an almost blackmarket economy of unstructured sticker brands. The question is then asked, who is in a position to establish this body?
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If this was the UK we would create "the worshipful company of podshavers"
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Here is a link to the UK Heritage Crafts Association which is interesting reading regarding the industry. https://heritagecrafts.org.uk/cricket-bat-making/
It may be a credit to the industry to develop an international association that is responsible for setting criteria which gives credit to the bat maker, sets standards for accreditation even developing a recognised apprenticeship. In other crafts, a genuine crafter has a mark, or stamp in addition to branding. Nice to give credit where credit due and limit the glory taken by others for work they haven’t skills to do. (MCC thought about this in 2001 but caved to big brands over genuine manufactures). Also gives greater exposure of origin to the end consumer.
No more photos on Instagram of brands showing “our factory” or the hand written “famous player” penned on the toe to fool them into thinking they are buying a Pro’s actual bat from the genuine maker.
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Sounds like heritage crafts are really talking "artisinal bats"? Going to this level sounds like it would exclude CNC and part-mades (... fitting handles made elsewhere?)
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Interesting sources used for information. Some mentioned are either no longer making or have historically not ‘made’ bats
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Interesting sources used for information. Some mentioned are either no longer making or have historically not ‘made’ bats
Name and shame!!
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Name and shame!!
Heritage stopped making a little while ago, unless Kieran has restarted again. Won’t name and shame but it’s been well documented on here in the past of someone who claims to make and doesn’t. Had dealings with this company when I first started and all claims were that they made from the raw cleft which turned out to be false. Unless of course things have changed and then I’ll happily stand corrected.
It’s an interesting point. I started with part mades as I didn’t have the means to press and handle or even source the clefts at the start. I was however honest about it and have since progressed to making from the raw cleft. I was fortunate to be able to speak to a couple of bat makers who helped and I wouldn’t be where I am today without their help. I also support some smaller makers with part mades to enable them to develop their skills. Ultimately I have no issue with people who shape part mades or to some extend sticker brands as long as they are clear about what they do and where things are sourced from. It’s frustrating when you know that customers are being lied to.
I was asked to refurb a bat from a smaller relatively unknown brand a few months ago for a customer. It was massive for the weight and clearly made abroad. He was told it was from a jsw cleft made in the north of the uk by an up and coming maker who ran the brand. Whilst some of this could be taken with a pinch of salt, even half of it is a massive fabrication and the customer has been clearly misled. It had all the hallmark signs of a bat made on the subcontinent and the customer paid top dollar for it. In my opinion these things shouldn’t happen and it should be much more clear as to what you are buying.
It’s not to say they are inferior products, just that they carry the cost associated with a UK made product
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Why is it acceptable for the batmaker not to make the handle? Just curious...
Also with accusations being flung, is rebadging of softs when almost none of the UK brands make them acceptable also?
Because I see it as hypocritical when some in here have a go at the 'sticker brands' or those who use third parties to make the bats.
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Julian Millichamp was widely regarded as the best podshaver in the world before his retirement.
He used to shape clefts that had already been handled and pressed. Nobody was accusing him of "not being a bat maker"
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Julian Millichamp was widely regarded as the best podshaver in the world before his retirement.
He used to shape clefts that had already been handled and pressed. Nobody was accusing him of "not being a bat maker"
Yup agree. Was he also importing them already handled and pressed?
My point is that the handle is an important part of the bat... so with accusations made... thoughts... as Millicahmp wouldn't be regarded as batmaker for this and more...
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It’s the way of the world now,,,,outsourcing is in every business.
Very very few companies actually manufacture anything in house now
A batmaker?,,,you know what, do the majority of the bat buyers out there really care? That’s a better question
Personally I class a podshaver as a batmaker,,,you can’t walk out to bat with a pod, it has to be shaped/made whatever into a usable bat,,
I really don’t mind the sticker up brands,,,,as long as they don’t play on lies,,and don’t charge ridiculous money for basically the same product.
The real issue is there is genuinely no money to be made from making cricket bats, the time,and willow costs alone, never mind the cost of tools,machinery etc, mean it’s gotta be one of the worst things you could manufacture,(in the uk) to make a half decent living from.
Hence why most outsource, to cheaper companies
I’m sure Paul Aldred mentions it took him 8yrs before he made enough to give up the coaching etc? I could be wrong on that.
More money,profit to be made bringing in bags,softs etc and stickering up ready made bats
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I think JM did that towards the end of his career, probably due to timings but clearly he could make a bat from scratch and has done for a number of years.
I don’t make handles, very few do. I think it’s a case of not enough time and not having a reliable source of cane. I don’t think that takes away from being a bat maker. Same with softs, it’s just not physically possible to do this yourself and maintain a sale point that customers would expect. I don’t use stock designs for softs and design things myself so I don’t have a generic design. There are however massive limitations and unless you do something pretty obscure, there are only so many things you can change.
I appreciate it’s different industries but do apple, Mercedes or any other brand make every component of their product and does it detract from the product. Are they open and honest about it? Not necessarily but a little research and it’s easily found out who makes what for the item. My point I was making was do they lie about it? Do they present it as something different? They don’t, whereas someone cricket brands pretend to be something they aren’t to make their products appealing.
As I said, making from part mades is where I started and I think that’s acceptable as long as you are clear that you don’t press them yourself.
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I think it’s quite simple really.
To be classed as a bat maker, you have to possess the necessary knowledge and skills in order to: handle, press, shave and finish the bat to a competent standard, for an industry competitive cricket bat.
Whether a bat maker chooses to do all the above or outsource, within their daily business, is down to money and economies of scale. Then, if the main source of income is derived from bat making and they have the aforementioned skillset. I would class that person/outfit as a professional bat maker.
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The issue is having the opportunity. If there was an apprenticship scheme, qualification etc available, then great. However as far as I'm aware there isn't, or are extremely hard to come by (drop me a PM in you know of any!)
So you're left with either teaching yourself from part mades and progressing to pressing if you can (as John did and I think Aldred too?), or buying bats in and stickering up. No issue with either. Neither are maybe classed, or should be classed, as batmakers. But not sure they do class themselves as this. I'm not sure any I know of claim to press themselves? Everyone has to start somewhere, otherwise there won't be any batmakers in 20 years or so.
Anyone offering a good product, at a fair price and is honest as to its origins etc, is surely offering a good service?
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I think we should all club together and launch CBF Bats. Would love to do something like that.
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Sticker up brands get a bad rep because there's been plenty of examples of brands that have taken liberties by misleading people about what they're buying in one way or another. Plenty that do things right of course.
I think shaping clefts is the basic entry requirement to calling yourself a batmaker - anyone starting with a part made and turning it into a finished bat is definitely making bats, but I'd definitely defer to someone who presses and handles as well as just shaping. I'd love to be able to handle and press my own bats, but after I'd sunk a few grand into the necessary gear I'd have to be selling a lot to make it worthwhile!
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I think shaping clefts is the basic entry requirement to calling yourself a batmaker
... Where does that leave those (well respected brands) that use CNC? Pressing is clearly one of the most important steps and individual attention to pressing each cleft/bat is rightly promoted by most bat 'makers' as a USP.
For me the next most important part is balance and that has to do with shaping the cleft ... but I guess what I cannot figure out is whether individual clefts vary sufficiently that hand shaping is a real advantage over cookie cuter CNC shaping ...?
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... Where does that leave those (well respected brands) that use CNC? Pressing is clearly one of the most important steps and individual attention to pressing each cleft/bat is rightly promoted by most bat 'makers' as a USP.
For me the next most important part is balance and that has to do with shaping the cleft ... but I guess what I cannot figure out is whether individual clefts vary sufficiently that hand shaping is a real advantage over cookie cuter CNC shaping ...?
People seriously underestimate the time and knowledge jump between having a CNC machine and some willow and producing cricket bats! There is a lot more to it than shoving clefts in one end and getting a finished bat out the other, just the skills required to automate part of the production are very different to the skills a traditional batmaker needs.
As for balance, I don't think that's a CNC vs hand made question - it's just time taken on each bat. Noone has a fully automated bat production line (at least not that I'm aware of!) so there's always human involvement, in most cases that will be the final finishing where fine balance adjustments take place anyway. On the other side, just because someone is making bats entirely with hand tools, that doesn't necessarily mean they're taking loads of time over balancing every stick.
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Personally it's an issue I'm not bothered with but wanted to guage a few things...
I dont care if it is a cnc made stickered up bat... or the whole thing hand made from scratch. What I dont like is when people get on their high horse about certain brands but yet brands they like or praise do similar. My point being if you are so anal about such stuff then your favourite batmaker shouldn't sell branded softs.
As long as brands are open I'm not bothered. I currently use a GM and have used Charlie French back in the day when he made everything from the handle to pressing.
I just don't like the selective bashing in here... point in case when people had a go at SS butterfly bats. Someone rightly pointed out if the batmaker or seller was different there would either be praise or wrath unleashed...
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I think you're missing the point @Yorkershire - people complain when they're misled. Noone is moaning about people sourcing nice bats and selling them under their own brand. People 'get on their high horse' when brands do things like build a reputation based on using a certain UK batmaker and market that heavily, then quietly switch to cheaper suppliers and put up prices. Sticker up brands that are well liked on here are ones that are honest and consistent about their sourcing. I've never seen a small UK brand claim to make their own softs.
Similarly noone was bagging SS butterflies, just some didn't like the price they were up for.
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Still plenty of work to finish off a cnc made bat
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y4KQEMj9CFc
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... people complain when they're misled.
We do agree on this and I should have mentioned it in my post.. 'As long as brands aren't misleading people'.
My point was if TK was selling butterflies with the same look, at a similar price, people would have been jumping all over them...
PS it wasn't about small or big... none of the main UK brands imply they haven't manufactured their softs.. it's always presented that its their softs and manufactured by them. Its a subtle point but valid nevertheless.
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They would, but probably mainly because TK's actual butterfly prices are more like £250!
Small v big is quite key - some of the big do have their own factories in the subcontinent and likely do make their own softs.