Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: norbs on August 31, 2012, 10:31:38 AM
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It seems we are getting complacent, resigned to the fact that, bespoke isn't bespoke, it is off a CNC machine or we are being duped in someway to handover money for something that has been incorrectly advertised.
Do we have this blinkered view on bat making in the UK because of the proliferation of stickered up bats, the apparent ease of the availability of finished bat and the internet rumour mill?
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Firstly, i'm sure the majority don't care. It's just the kit nerds on the forums thatcare really bothered.
But I don't share that view at all - if I'm going to be precious about having a handmade bat I'm confident of 4-5 places I can go to get exactly what I want.
But even if it is a mass produced, stickered up bat, doesn't make it a bad bat.
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I'd tend to disagree, maybe it just me though. It seems on discovery that bat isn't what it should be or there is a snippet of information, rumour or otherwise, that comes out there is normally "This is madness is there no one that makes a bat anymore" and or "That ain't bespoke mate, that is......"
So I reckon the question still stands, as we become more informed, rightly or wrongly with the information [some of it isnt quite right sometimes]? Why does this make more complacent, cynical is it the proliferation of brands. Has the choice made us this way.... Are we feeling cheated even though we think we know what is go on!
It is quite interesting really.....
At the end of the day if the guy uses it likes it there is no such thing as a bad bat...
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The reason people are so wary of what they are buying is because, in general, the makers of all bats are very, very bad at telling us exactly what it is that they are selling! Be that through contractual reasons or just because marketing isn't a strong point. Us bat nerds have to end up asking questions in order to ensure we're not just paying £100 extra for different stickers! It's hardly surprising that we become suspicious is it?
For me, the 'real' batmakers, the ones who do it all under one roof including the pressing, handling etc need to be shouting about it a lot louder than they are. As for the others? Well, that's the price they pay for outsourcing!
I would like to point out that my standard answer to the favourite 'What bat shall I buy?' thread is that any of the forum sponsors plus a great many outside of this forum can make you the bat of your dreams. I just prefer to know exactly what it is that I am paying for ;)
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If someone uses and likes their bat, then indeed shoudl it matter in what circumstance it was made?
I still think that there should be a definite line drawn between (1) the fully stickered up bats, then (2) the part mades then are finished, and lastly (3) the bats which are pressed and fully made by the brand. If each of the three scenaros were defined and the brands had to disclose which category they were in, then that would allow a more informed choice by the buyer?
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im sure the majority of bats are bought by club cricketers on line or in sports stores,these are marked up already as the main 'big boys' seek to recover large paychecks for the players(1m each for flintoff and kp at woodworm-woodworm went bust) and then again by the sports shops themselves.So it's the club cricketers(us) that fuel the machine.
I do have a problem with smaller batmakers pushing the fact it's 'custom made' providing it actually is.
An the more information available the better,why this forum is protective of who makes what for who is odd.People may speculate and get it wrong and I can see that would be not in my interests if I was a seller on here,but if it's right I dont see a problem.
The problem I have is shisters who sticker up other people's brand's,mark them up and sell them on higher,I just dont get how the 'middle man' fit's in...
just my thoughts
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sorry that should say i DON'T have a problem with smaller batmakers pushing the 'custom made' thing
more power to their elbow
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The way I see it, bespoke is tailored to suit the buyers needs. Whether it be made by machine or hand, if it is made specifically for you and your needs, then it is bespoke. A tailor won't always hand stitch that £3000 suit you paid for will he?
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If someone uses and likes their bat, then indeed shoudl it matter in what circumstance it was made?
I still think that there should be a definite line drawn between (1) the fully stickered up bats, then (2) the part mades then are finished, and lastly (3) the bats which are pressed and fully made by the brand. If each of the three scenaros were defined and the brands had to disclose which category they were in, then that would allow a more informed choice by the buyer?
100% Agree. The only reason anyone would be against this is if they are currently hiding something!
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So it seems like it is more of an annoyance then anything else. Is that because you cant say who does what on here as you can call the sellers and find out, or is it because you smell rat and when you've asked the seller they feed you a line?
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I just think that the few guys left who are really doing everything from start to finish need to be protected as much as possible. If we don't support those guys then the industry will eventually die and all bats will end up being the same. A lot of informed (or ill informed!!) opinion has it that pressing is one of the key parts of bat making. If it's all done by one company then where is the choice? Or is there only one way to press a bat?
Those companies that like to give the impression of handmaking bats themselves when they are just buying in bats are just contributing to the struggles of the real craftsman. That doesn't mean they are selling an inferior product but if everything was forced to be out in the open then at least people could make an informed choice and choose to support the 'real' craftsman if they so wish.
It would also put costs into perspective which is why a few companies would be against it......most of us would be happy to spend a little extra on a truly handmade bat....I would be anyway!
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Pressing and cricket bat making!!!! It is down to the bat makers voodoo and his mojo on the day, right!!
Decent handles, willow selection, profile shapes and understand those go a long way to making a good bat.
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Pressing and cricket bat making!!!! It is down to the bat makers voodoo and his mojo on the day, right!!
Decent handles, willow selection, profile shapes and understand those go a long way to making a good bat.
So there is only one way to press a bat then?
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So there is only one way to press a bat then?
No there are a few ways to press a bat, the debatable bit is whether on a larger scales [and possibly smaller] the pressing changes
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If you have two separate people pressing bats then surely they will have differing ideas of what the best way to press it is....? So there will be differences between pressings. That's what gives people the choice....those differences. It's not about right or wrong it's about choice and it's that choice that I want to see protected! ;)
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I agree with you pedals. I relate custom(or bespoke) to being 'hand' made weather it be a bat a motorbike or car(mclaren). You pay for craftsmanship.
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Ok, to get a handle on this so to speak :D
Something simple to prove the provenance like a makers mark, Pressed by ....... , Shaped by .......
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Yeah! OR...... Gold, Silver and Bronze medals! (on the Olympic theme!) Bronze for someone who can pop a sticker on straight, silver for someone who does most of their stuff by hand and gold for someone who does it all....
You can then use that 'medal' in your advertising. A 'gold star' batmaker...etc. Like an ISO 9002 standard for batmakers! (How sad would that be!!)
Would be very costly to set up though I fear.... :)
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Having had some interesting experiences with team mates, this is an odd one. Most want a decent bat, and will take note of what AOC reviews say. Few give a monkeys about who makes the thing. As long as it works and has been found by "experts" to work, they are generally happy. Most simply marvel at some of my sticks as they are happy to trot to the oval shop and buy a GM. One or two are more picky and will ask questions ofa batmaker, but even those who buy more interesting stuff, like a joker, don't really care who made it...
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I'm not sure I agree with the premise that bespoke isn't bespoke. My preference has and probably always will be for quality handmade bats. I think the bat makers skill and the relationship with the willow merchant are key parts of the process. That said bespoke means made to your specs, that doesn't necessarily mean handmade.
My company produces bespoke, handmade bats. I doubt there is another bat maker giving a "more" bespoke service. We measure where the sweet spot would be best positioned for the individual, analyse the batsman's strokeplay to advise on the best profile. We give options on a traditional or concave shape, how thick or thin the handle is, whether it's round, oval, part oval and now a octagonal handle. The customer can choose the exact weight of the finished bat, the number of grains in the willow, whether its natural faced or has a scuff sheet, toe guard and a choice of stickers. That said, I contract out the actual shaping of the bat to a company that has been making high quality cricket bats for over a hundred years. Does this mean that my company doesn't offer a bespoke cricket bat service? If I could afford a full time master bat maker would that qualify?
I think the art of handcrafting a cricket bat should be preserved. I don't think bespoke means you necessarily have to be the guy with the drawknife in your hand.
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Yeah! OR...... Gold, Silver and Bronze medals! (on the Olympic theme!) Bronze for someone who can pop a sticker on straight, silver for someone who does most of their stuff by hand and gold for someone who does it all....
You can then use that 'medal' in your advertising. A 'gold star' batmaker...etc. Like an ISO 9002 standard for batmakers! (How sad would that be!!)
Interesting idea... However what would I come under though? I source my own willow, handles but have to go somewhere else (an established bat maker) to press, splice and machine my bats. I dislike these people who buy part mades and only finish the shaping off and pass it off as a hand made. Hand crafted is still 'sexing' it up. A bit, mutton dressed like lamb in that kind of sense if you get where I'm coming from.
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I'm not sure I agree with the premise that bespoke isn't bespoke. My preference has and probably always will be for quality handmade bats. I think the bat makers skill and the relationship with the willow merchant are key parts of the process. That said bespoke means made to your specs, that doesn't necessarily mean handmade.
My company produces bespoke, handmade bats. I doubt there is another bat maker giving a "more" bespoke service. We measure where the sweet spot would be best positioned for the individual, analyse the batsman's strokeplay to advise on the best profile. We give options on a traditional or concave shape, how thick or thin the handle is, whether it's round, oval, part oval and now a octagonal handle. The customer can choose the exact weight of the finished bat, the number of grains in the willow, whether its natural faced or has a scuff sheet, toe guard and a choice of stickers. That said, I contract out the actual shaping of the bat to a company that has been making high quality cricket bats for over a hundred years. Does this mean that my company doesn't offer a bespoke cricket bat service? If I could afford a full time master bat maker would that qualify?
I think the art of handcrafting a cricket bat should be preserved. I don't think bespoke means you necessarily have to be the guy with the drawknife in your hand.
I would disagree there are fair few bat makers that offer the same bespoke service you mentioned here...
Also I think you can offer a bespoke service but your bat maker is offering the bespoke bat and that is the question here....
Not for you in particular, but the question is, is that bat bespoke?
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I'm not sure I agree with the premise that bespoke isn't bespoke. My preference has and probably always will be for quality handmade bats. I think the bat makers skill and the relationship with the willow merchant are key parts of the process. That said bespoke means made to your specs, that doesn't necessarily mean handmade.
My company produces bespoke, handmade bats. I doubt there is another bat maker giving a "more" bespoke service. We measure where the sweet spot would be best positioned for the individual, analyse the batsman's strokeplay to advise on the best profile. We give options on a traditional or concave shape, how thick or thin the handle is, whether it's round, oval, part oval and now a octagonal handle. The customer can choose the exact weight of the finished bat, the number of grains in the willow, whether its natural faced or has a scuff sheet, toe guard and a choice of stickers. That said, I contract out the actual shaping of the bat to a company that has been making high quality cricket bats for over a hundred years. Does this mean that my company doesn't offer a bespoke cricket bat service? If I could afford a full time master bat maker would that qualify?
I think the art of handcrafting a cricket bat should be preserved. I don't think bespoke means you necessarily have to be the guy with the drawknife in your hand.
Sorry but I find your comment amazing about you think no other maker offers a more bespoke service
Go to a barn where a Podshaver works
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Only if it made for you and you control everything is it truly bespoke
I go as far as springs in the handle now that is bespoke
And you can get both from a machine to a Podshaver and in my eyes the real Podshaver if done right should charge a higher premium
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Sorry but I find your comment amazing about you think no other maker offers a more bespoke service
Go to a barn where a Podshaver works
hahahaha :D
PS: loving Brewster as well
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I'm pretty sure there are a number of companies that offer a 'more bespoke' service than taking measurements and emailing them to a batmaker! Not the best of examples really! :D
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Although to be honest the pressing thing is a bit dubious in my eyes that more about credence because if you but 5 bats in front of you all pressed by different people who could tell I couldn't
With all the reproduction company's the world has gone merky dillouted to a degree
I even saw a fake ss ton which was a local Indian import and I couldn't tell
Maybe we all just read to much into it after all it is only a decent bat if you can use it
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didn't come across as intended but the point was there are a lot of people involved in making a cricket bat from the people who grow and harvest the willow all the way down the line to the people doing the branding and marketing.
the bespoke part is the interaction with the person buying the bat, finding out what they want and giving them options, then delivering a quality product. not everyone can get to a barn where a podshaver works, not everyone wants to, that doesn't mean they don't want a bespoke bat
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I just cannot see how a bespoke bat can be offered by a company that doesn't make bats!
Bespoke to me means tailored, made to measure and made to the highest standards possible ( I do not equate 'bespoke' with tat!) The exact tailoring of a bat to my needs can only be achieved if I am stood next to the podshaver and able to have input and answer his questions about what I want whilst he is in the process of making it. At the very least you have to have a conversation with said podshaver, even if you cannot be there in person.
If I am going through a third party then how can I possibly get that service? In most cases, we're not even allowed to know who makes the flippin thing! I'm sure I can get a rough approximation of what I want, but I could never get the same as I get from meeting the podshaver face to face.
Anyway, why should a company that outsources all it's production (not thinking of anyone imparticular here) be able to position themselves in the marketplace alongside the 'real' craftsman just by casually dropping in words like handmade, handcrafted, traditional craftsmanship etc into their marketing?
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didn't come across as intended but the point was there are a lot of people involved in making a cricket bat from the people who grow and harvest the willow all the way down the line to the people doing the branding and marketing.
the bespoke part is the interaction with the person buying the bat, finding out what they want and giving them options, then delivering a quality product. not everyone can get to a barn where a podshaver works, not everyone wants to, that doesn't mean they don't want a bespoke bat
Rich fair enough mate, you are offering something no one else offers with the combined sheets and the bats mate so fair play
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To be honest I'm not that bothered who or what makes my bats or where they are made. If I like it and it suits me then I don't care. Unless it's made in India, I don't like Indian made bats.
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Then you are truly missing out on some great bats junter
Devil advocate but some of the finest bats out there are indian
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Exactly what do you hate about Indian made bats Junter?
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Mostly handmade as well, those pesky Southern Asians! :D
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I just cannot see how a bespoke bat can be offered by a company that doesn't make bats!
Bespoke to me means tailored, made to measure and made to the highest standards possible ( I do not equate 'bespoke' with tat!) The exact tailoring of a bat to my needs can only be achieved if I am stood next to the podshaver and able to have input and answer his questions about what I want whilst he is in the process of making it. At the very least you have to have a conversation with said podshaver, even if you cannot be there in person.
If I am going through a third party then how can I possibly get that service? In most cases, we're not even allowed to know who makes the flippin thing! I'm sure I can get a rough approximation of what I want, but I could never get the same as I get from meeting the podshaver face to face.
Anyway, why should a company that outsources all it's production (not thinking of anyone imparticular here) be able to position themselves in the marketplace alongside the 'real' craftsman just by casually dropping in words like handmade, handcrafted, traditional craftsmanship etc into their marketing?
steady on there. nobody minds a bit of fun or people being passionate about stuff that they have strong opinions on but bandying words like tat and insinuating that some companies bats aren't made by "real" craftsmen is out of order.
the process I developed and the time and money I've spent getting it out there has switched a lot of people on to "bespoke" bats, people that would probably have just gone for an off the shelf bat otherwise, and if you read the reviews in All Out Cricket and Cricketer magazine you'll know that the bats are top quality. the process lends itself to bespoke, you would think that anyone who supports hand crafted bats would be pro something that promotes that type of bat making.
I haven't made the process exclusive. i don't just offer it as part of our bat making service. Everyone has the option to take their "measurements" and go to whichever batmaker or retailer they like.
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So unless you're stood next to a batmaker it's not a real bespoke bat???
That's rubbish!
Sometimes it's not even about the customer knowing what they want, it's about a batmaker interpreting a players needs and translating it into a bat shape.
For example, Laver&Wood have quite a detailed questionnaire to fill in. Would be interesting to get James and Andy's view on this as I would say they pride themselves on a bespoke service yet quite often their customers are based on the other side of the world.
CricTech have developed an innovative and unique way to gather those requirements. Even though they may not make the bats themselves I think they're still entitled to the 'bespoke' label.
By the way, I had a bespoke suit for my wedding.
This involved going to a company who took all my measurements and discussed cut, as well as colour and trim options... But all those decisions then went to a third party to actually make the suit.. Is it still a bespoke suit? ??
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To be honest I'm not that bothered who or what makes my bats or where they are made. If I like it and it suits me then I don't care. Unless it's made in India, I hate Indian made bats.
Agree with you there, but I quite like indian bats, as long as they have a decent handle. If a bat works for me then good, it doesn't matter who made it. The perfect bat for you could be an off the shelf Puma bat, and in the same way there could be no perfect off the shelf bat for you and the best one to suit you would be bespoke, that's where I think the crictech process is extremely useful - to let you know what bat you need, basically.
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Only if it made for you and you control everything is it truly bespoke
I go as far as springs in the handle now that is bespoke
And you can get both from a machine to a Podshaver and in my eyes the real Podshaver if done right should charge a higher premium
Of course you do not need to be there
That's why I have desided to get a machine custom i have tried many a custom pod shaver time to give the machine custom a go
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About honesty I think so people can make an informed decision.
I personally. Found a batmaker local to me, luckily he's a top podshaver so happy with my choice + will continue to use him.
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It's interesting as to how we interpret bespoke. Using the suit analogy, I had one made where I was scanned by a 3D scanner, and the measurements sent to Italy electronically where a computer generated the patterns for the suit. It was then made by somebody who I never spoke to.
It was made for me, to my measurements, by someone who knew what they were doing, and the person I interacted with knew what they needed to talk to me about. I don't think this is different to what Richard offers. He has similar information regarding the pattern (the sheets), material weight (weight you are after) and therefore provides something that people are happy with. If this isn't a process you like, by all means use a different one!
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To be honest I'm not that bothered who or what makes my bats or where they are made. If I like it and it suits me then I don't care. Unless it's made in India, I hate Indian made bats.
The biggest contradiction I've ever read!
I don't care in what country my bat is made just as long as it feels right and performs well.
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@crictech. Why don't I just go to the batmaker that you use instead of paying you as the middle man. Let's face it your company supplies bespoke bats not makes them and that's the whole argument here. That is why I have a screaming cat, Redink, Blueroom and MG2 bats and will be adding a SAF to that collection. How peed off would you be if you went to a restaurant and paid big bucks for a meal regardless how good it tastes only to find out that the meal was supplied by a little shop down the road for half the price.
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I don't like Indian made bats because the last two I have used, the handles have gone. I have never broke a bat apart from those two. I know that there are good Indian made bats out there but I don't think I'll be using an Indian made bat anytime soon. Looking at it now, yeah I don't hate them, but I don't like them.
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@crictech. Why don't I just go to the batmaker that you use instead of paying you as the middle man. Let's face it your company supplies bespoke bats not makes them and that's the whole argument here. That is why I have a screaming cat, Redink, Blueroom and MG2 bats and will be adding a SAF to that collection. How peed off would you be if you went to a restaurant and paid big bucks for a meal regardless how good it tastes only to find out that the meal was supplied by a little shop down the road for half the price.
You don't appear to have read the CricTech website. You undertake the analysis, for which you pay, and that cost comes off the bat that Crictech will supply. The Robert Pack custom bats cost roughly the same price as the Crictech Top Grade bats and H4L Customs are about £300, so I'm a bit at a loss to understand the point about buying the meal and finding you'd pay half the price down the road...
A bespoke bat is a bespoke bat, and the process by which you get to it is what differs. The fact is that the prices charged by Crictech are not out of the ordinary or more expensive than other suppliers. If you want to use the CricTech technology to get to a bat shape, then it will cost you £60, plus the cost of the bat from a different supplier. Alternatively, you can use the supplier that Crictech has a contract with. I would assume that they have worked closely to establish how the sheets turn into a shape, and will probably provide you with a few more details should you care to ask.
Should anyone care, the dictionary definition of Bespoke is: made to individual order or specification; custom-made
I don't think anyone can argue that that is what CricTech are doing.
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so tim you would be happy to pay for a BMW rebadged as a SAAb
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My only desire is to see the few guys left who are making proper handmade bats, using traditional methods, from start to finish under one roof given a bit of protection/acknowledgement in a way that makes it obvious to the customer.
@Crictech I equate the WORD bespoke to quality, not tat. I don't equate your bats to tat, I've never seen them.... ;)
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what's tat?
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what's tat?
Tat is bad, you don't want tat, stay away from tat.
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It's interesting as to how we interpret bespoke. Using the suit analogy, I had one made where I was scanned by a 3D scanner, and the measurements sent to Italy electronically where a computer generated the patterns for the suit. It was then made by somebody who I never spoke to.
It was made for me, to my measurements, by someone who knew what they were doing, and the person I interacted with knew what they needed to talk to me about. I don't think this is different to what Richard offers. He has similar information regarding the pattern (the sheets), material weight (weight you are after) and therefore provides something that people are happy with. If this isn't a process you like, by all means use a different one!
It's a fair point you make Tim, although I would be interested to know whether the Master Tailors in Saville Row would agree that what you have is a bespoke suit.....I would hazard a guess that they probably don't....
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by the oxford definition tim would be right to call his suit bespoke but from a consumer definition I believe people define this as hand made from start to finish.
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so tim you would be happy to pay for a BMW rebadged as a SAAb
If Saab had spent the time with me to work out what my bespoke car needed to be, provided me with a mock up, and what I got back was what I was expecting at a Saab price, with fully Saab product badging, then yes I would.
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It's a fair point you make Tim, although I would be interested to know whether the Master Tailors in Saville Row would agree that what you have is a bespoke suit.....I would hazard a guess that they probably don't....
There's a similar debate in suits. For example there's a difference between bespoke and made to measure.
The phrase 'Savile Row Bespoke’ has been trademarked by the association and you have to meet their stringent requirements to use it.
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Johnny as this is something I've done for a few years this is what I reckon true bespoke made to measure is for me...
I few things can be done by the bat maker before hand but it really requires the person there to do the other stuff
[It would be a nightmare to have this done by different people so it is better down all inhouse]
Guide or help with the pressing you'd like [then done]
Guide or help with the handle you'd like [then done]
Guide or help with handle shape you'd like [then done, actually for all below as well]
Guide or help with Swing weight
Guide or help with Balance pickup you'd like
Guide or help with the shape you'd like
Guide or help with the branding you'd like
and Guide or help sanding if you feeling excitable
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I think this comes back to what we understand things to mean. Having a bat made at your workshop and undertaking the whole experience is a level up from getting a bat made to your specs. Both are bespoke bats, with shapes to suit, but what you describe is the Saville Row bespoke, as opposed to, say, the Laver and Wood custom service, which is made exactly to what you asked for, but for a UK buyer, not standing in the workshop.
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I think this comes back to what we understand things to mean. Having a bat made at your workshop and undertaking the whole experience is a level up from getting a bat made to your specs. Both are bespoke bats, with shapes to suit, but what you describe is the Saville Row bespoke, as opposed to, say, the Laver and Wood custom service, which is made exactly to what you asked for, but for a UK buyer, not standing in the workshop.
That is a true bespoke I would say [I missed willow selection] but a you can still get something similar without all the bells and whistles and reduce the costs. A bit like your visit, where we did selection [loosely pressing selection], handle shape, middle postiion etc. This can be done via email forms as well and that is what keeps us small bat makers going.
That is, our agility and ability with respects to moving a middle on a shape we offer and or providing true custom offering as well.
I hope that makes sense
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It does make sense. And to be fair, I really enjoyed my visit. I think it gives a great feeling that the bat is exactly what you want, and I'd suggest that that is down to being able to balance it in situ.
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@crictech. Why don't I just go to the batmaker that you use instead of paying you as the middle man. Let's face it your company supplies bespoke bats not makes them and that's the whole argument here. That is why I have a screaming cat, Redink, Blueroom and MG2 bats and will be adding a SAF to that collection. How peed off would you be if you went to a restaurant and paid big bucks for a meal regardless how good it tastes only to find out that the meal was supplied by a little shop down the road for half the price.
I'm not sure your analogy works, when you're going to a restaurant you pay for a dining experience of which the food is a part, but to answer your question, CricTech has a unique analysis process. There is no middle man for that. There's nothing stopping you taking the analysis results and using them to get your bat made by whoever you like. Obviously I'd prefer we make the bat because that's part of our business and between the bat maker and me we know how to get the best results.