Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Companies => Custom companies => Topic started by: Manormanic on October 22, 2012, 08:27:13 AM
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Its wierd, I was going to start a thread about the received wisdom of the forum in light of the MSR thread, and this plays into it entirely. There are a lot of boutique brands out there and some - H4L, SAF, BC - are always the first namesout when someone ask what they should look at yet there are other batmakers - ones that sprang to my mind were Warsop, Choice, Hawk, Solitaire and Kippax - who make bat that are every bit as good but never get mentioned. Is it a sponsor/non sponsor thing at work, or is there a hive mind forming>?
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Its wierd, I was going to start a thread about the received wisdom of the forum in light of the MSR thread, and this plays into it entirely. There are a lot of boutique brands out there and some - H4L, SAF, BC - are always the first namesout when someone ask what they should look at yet there are other batmakers - ones that sprang to my mind were Warsop, Choice, Hawk, Solitaire and Kippax - who make bat that are every bit as good but never get mentioned. Is it a sponsor/non sponsor thing at work, or is there a hive mind forming>?
Part of sponsorship is raising awareness, I think sponsors would be disappointed if they didn't get first mention.
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Part of sponsorship is raising awareness, I think sponsors would be disappointed if they didn't get first mention.
If they didn't get firt mention from the Admin team, yes, but they would surely have no expectation of the same from the majority of users; it goes beyond that though, as 9/10 of the threads are related to the same few brands, disproportionate to the actual size of them etc.
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Manormanic, I think the answer lies in the "your Kit for 2013" thread. People on here seem to use either big boys or mostly forum sponsors. There are smatterings of Chase, Warsop and others, and I recall that Solitaire was a "trendy" brand about 18 months ago, with a fair few people trying them out.
I think the hive mind of which you speak does have a tendency to occur, especially where an internet forum has multiple members who have been happy with what they receive.
There is also the side effect of people's experiences, which comes to the fore frequently as well. I don't buy Warsop as I've never found one I liked amongst those my friends have, and I've seen too many break, despite them being a well regarded brand. I've also not found a Kippax that I liked.
Maybe it's because their stickers don't appeal...
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Valid points - though I have never known of the issues you describe regarding Warsop breakages!!!
On the hive mind point - I wonder how the forum community would react if one of the sponsors got a really bad review. Would they take it for what it was, or treat it as a sinister attack on the batmakers integrity?
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There was a review of a bat custom bat on here - Colesy had one that he really didn't like. I think the batmaker was shown in a good light because he took it back and gave him a refund. People still rave about his bats now. I think that the majority of the people on here accept a turkey may occur. The good relationship that most sponsors have fostered means that people are prepared to give a little slack, perhaps?
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no wish to offend anyone on here,but im going against the grain here. i can totally understand why Hawk and other batmakers would not want a review on here, i'm actually surprised more do not object(maybe they do).
I'm not saying they have anything to hide with unhappy customers for example or return policy's for their bats but information posted on here is out on the worldwide web.
We(i say we because I happen to be a member on here) have also seen so called 'special contacts people' on here,in fact forum sponsors turn out to be con men-simple as.
My view is some of the bat companies would rather keep their business between customer and company without a hundred view being aired in public.
End of the day it's their business.
As I say, just my view. :)
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Forums cause a lot of problems for proper batmakers, with allusions to what they do and also being put on the same level of those who just finish/sticker bats.
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no wish to offend anyone on here,but im going against the grain here. i can totally understand why Hawk and other batmakers would not want a review on here, i'm actually surprised more do not object(maybe they do).
I'm not saying they have anything to hide with unhappy customers for example or return policy's for their bats but information posted on here is out on the worldwide web.
My view is some of the bat companies would rather keep their business between customer and company without a hundred view being aired in public.
End of the day it's their business.
As I say, just my view. :)
I think there is a difference between a sponsored player airing their views on a forum and a regular punter. If a maker asks a punter not to participate, in my view there is a lot to question about that particular maker. It is no different to buying a product from anyone else and deciding that it and the service you received is good or bad.
We(i say we because I happen to be a member on here) have also seen so called 'special contacts people' on here,in fact forum sponsors turn out to be con men-simple as.
This statement bothers me. What do you mean when you say that Forum Sponsors turn out to be con-men? Are you referring to a very specific incident that we all know about are are you referring to something more widely?
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Forums cause a lot of problems for proper batmakers, with allusions to what they do and also being put on the same level of those who just finish/sticker bats.
But it's up to a batmaker to make the argument for or against them. There are plenty who simply choose not to participate and if that's their choice, then that's their choice.
If they were to actively go out and say "I'll sell you this, but you can't talk about it in a forum", I'd have to question their judgement.
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yes good point
also some of us probably know who makes who's pro bats,some also think they know, or a mate's mate told them.
Whilst some batmakers might tell you if you actually go and visit them,some also would want to keep that part of their business secret and that would be their decision.
it's not covering anything up, it's just that they would rather not broadcast it over the net.
I've personally seen a couple of pro's bats which are not in the same workshop as the brand on the stickers but I would'nt say who that was on here as it's not my business to.
I'm pretty sure some of the batmakers don't like that info over the web,this forum is not alone there are others which discuss topics like that.
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Whilst some batmakers might tell you if you actually go and visit them,some also would want to keep that part of their business secret and that would be their decision.
it's not covering anything up, it's just that they would rather not broadcast it over the net.
I've personally seen a couple of pro's bats which are not in the same workshop as the brand on the stickers but I would'nt say who that was on here as it's not my business to.
Respecting client confidentiality is always an interesting one, and I'd agree that certain batmakers probably don't want it broadcast, indeed, if someone who worked for them was to do it, it would probably constitute breach of contract.
Rumour and innuendo, however, is always rife and as much as some people get off on Heat publishing stories about celeb affairs, it's the same thing with Cricket Forums and who is making who's bats...
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Indeed Tim,quite right.
I remember the 1st time I saw SRT's bat which had MRF on it,which was the 1st time( i can recall) someone used a bat which was'nt a manufacturer,so there was a lot of interest there.
I think it's Madras Rubber Factory(not sure on that).
Of course now a lot of Indian players,and others use bats simply for sponsorship which get's people speculating
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Part of sponsorship is raising awareness, I think sponsors would be disappointed if they didn't get first mention.
This bit i can understand but its also their (sponsors) responsibility to promote themselves... I could never opt to push a sponsor over another external brand if it simply wasn't what i believed to be true/bestoption or didn't benefit the person asking the question. Those instances to that specific may be a rare occurrence but i think i'd like to see honest options and choice given. The sponsor can then follow up on any thread and promote which is kind of the point as well as having their own platform within the forum... but its worth extending better knowledge than promoting.
Just my opinion.
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This bit i can understand but its also their (sponsors) responsibility to promote themselves... I could never opt to push a sponsor over another external brand if it simply wasn't what i believed to be true/bestoption or didn't benefit the person asking the question. Those instances to that specific may be a rare occurrence but i think i'd like to see honest options and choice given. The sponsor can then follow up on any thread and promote which is kind of the point as well as having their own platform within the forum... but its worth extending better knowledge than promoting.
Just my opinion.
Totalling agree, I was just making the point that like all Marketing and Advertising you pay your money and expect to gain sales and a level of awareness for your money. As you said it's then up to the sponsor to promote their business to gain maximum advantage of the opportunity, ideally through some great deals that can't be had elsewhere (easily).
With regards to forum members, they buy the product and assuming it's a good experience, promote through word of mouth. When somebody asks who shall I buy a bat from, people naturally fall back on their experience and promote the brands they are aware of which may well be a sponsor, who they got a good deal off in the first place. I don't think it's anything more sinister than that but I suppose it is more surprising that we don't get more non-sponsor brands mentioned. In the last 2 years I've reviewed Kippax, Dukes and Raje for example.
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there has been a few bad reviews from L&W etc ... but i think its because most of the small bat makers do not produce bad bats as they quantity they make they can make sure that every one is @ least half decent..
when u compare them to the big boys they produced 1000's so some of them are bound to be bad..
alot of forum makers get mention cos we are on the forum and thats what we see ..
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Oh, I get that, but I wonder why some of the other brands mentioned which are perfectly good never get discussed and why whenever there is need for a recommendation the same niche brands *who are all forum sponsors* are mentioned with no mention of other potentially excellent manufacturers.
I'm not suggesting there is anything sinister to this on the part of the forum's admin team or even its members, I just find it interesting that we, who as a collective would like to think ourselves the cognisenti, appear so sheep-like in our answers!
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One reason is phrasing of the question. When they don't mention location or they don't want to visit somewhere:-
ie an answer to "I'm in so and so and want to visit" - if it's Yorks and they want to visit someone it's Kippax / Raje / Warrior for example. No sponsor in that area and maybe only 1 or 2 in other areas but the choice expands or contracts depending on how you see it.
but if somebody says "I want a bat for under xxx" we all naturally slip into online mode thinking the guy is ordering from his pc. We then interpret the question as "who do we trust to order a bat from online".
It is a bit sheep like when you look at it that way.
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Oh, I get that, but I wonder why some of the other brands mentioned which are perfectly good never get discussed and why whenever there is need for a recommendation the same niche brands *who are all forum sponsors* are mentioned with no mention of other potentially excellent manufacturers.
I'm not suggesting there is anything sinister to this on the part of the forum's admin team or even its members, I just find it interesting that we, who as a collective would like to think ourselves the cognisenti, appear so sheep-like in our answers!
My take on this is as a customer who lives outside of UK I have very little knowledge/awareness about all the other small brands out there. So when a question is asked I go back to what I have used, which is due to them being sponsors here.
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People join the forum to find out about non-mainstream kit. The kit that has been mostly bought eminates from the sponsors and so the feedback loop is "I trust this or that sponsor, so I'll recommend them". It's all self fulfilling. Added to that that the sponsors generally participate in the discussions around their kit and it helps to add to the volume around trusting a sponsor.
Those who don't participate are generally doing fine without the forum, and given the number of members and the buying power here, I suspect that they aren't overly concerned about the business that isn't referred...
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I don't disagree with any of that per se, but Iam still surprised that our more knowledgeable (and perhaps older) members never mention non-sponsors (apart from Chase, who get the odd mention from one member)
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Redback are not a forum sponsor and they get a fair few mentions although their popularity seems to have dropped off over the last year or so
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Apart from leo using one, I don't think I've heard more than the odd passing referene to them - indeed, I didn't even mention them myself first off!
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I expect forum sponsors to be pushed a little more, after all that's what they pay their money for.
But the main reason the small brands on here get pushed more is because they're seen as people, rather than a faceless brand. People like Matt @ H4L are probably regarded by many as friends/associates, and you're always going to recommend them over a faceless brand. You'll also be more forgiving and won't say as much negative.
Other brands such as Aldred or Blenheim who don't engage struggled, and aren't pushed to anywhere near the degree of those that do.
I like to see brands contribute, rather than just pay the £15 a month - and I think if more did that then it would work to the benefit of both the forum, the brand and the members.
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Apart from leo using one, I don't think I've heard more than the odd passing referene to them - indeed, I didn't even mention them myself first off!
I reviewed one a while back and I'm pretty sure that some of the long time members such as the Hosk and Peplow have too. Also agree strongly with Tom's points on sponsor contribution.
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I think Simmy is more right than people recognise. I also think that people on here do talk about their new shiny toys, they just have more shiny toys from certain places.
I personally like Lavers, H4Ls, SAFs and bats that originate from Sussex.
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I expect forum sponsors to be pushed a little more, after all that's what they pay their money for.
But the main reason the small brands on here get pushed more is because they're seen as people, rather than a faceless brand. People like Matt @ H4L are probably regarded by many as friends/associates, and you're always going to recommend them over a faceless brand. You'll also be more forgiving and won't say as much negative.
Other brands such as Aldred or Blenheim who don't engage struggled, and aren't pushed to anywhere near the degree of those that do.
I like to see brands contribute, rather than just pay the £15 a month - and I think if more did that then it would work to the benefit of both the forum, the brand and the members.
i think tom is right.. people that put more into the forum get more out of it!
and buying from a individual not a brand is a massive bonus
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Millichamp and Hall get bandied about quite a lot as well
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I will be honest I mention non sponsors kit more than sponsors because that what the sponsors are here to do and I like to share other experience with different brands
The forum at time can be very narrow minded and a look back over old topics is a interesting one where a non forum brand were heralded through the mud by certain members yet recently after a trade show they became the bell of the ball
To many on here make comments about brands they have not even touched and the forum from time to time needs a good shake up there more so much more than just this
Another classic was some forum sponsor was having a sale on yet the product was cheaper elsewhere on normal price yet people still thought it was a good idea to pay over the odds because they felt they new the bloke better
But the forum is quality there plenty of good stuff and some of the members in here are a pleasure to deal with
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A few reviews of b3 lately which are not a forum sponsor
I must agree with some that sponsors bats are pushed as that's what gets purchased most on here so there the most reviewed
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I expect forum sponsors to be pushed a little more, after all that's what they pay their money for.
But the main reason the small brands on here get pushed more is because they're seen as people, rather than a faceless brand. People like Matt @ H4L are probably regarded by many as friends/associates, and you're always going to recommend them over a faceless brand. You'll also be more forgiving and won't say as much negative.
Other brands such as Aldred or Blenheim who don't engage struggled, and aren't pushed to anywhere near the degree of those that do.
I like to see brands contribute, rather than just pay the £15 a month - and I think if more did that then it would work to the benefit of both the forum, the brand and the members.
I agree in part, they pay their money for the platform in which to operate.
If they think buying the space means they are going to sell stock then they'd be a little wide of the mark.
The bit i totally agree with is that you need to contribute, market yourself! You have the platform so use it... Each small business has a genuine personality. They have to and will because of the way the come about... allow that through and you build up character and a relationship with your audience. Forget the buzz words, advertising proper and alike... be yourself like an old shopkeeper and you'll get better interaction. The more this happens then your name becomes vocab for that audience and an option for a sale.
Lots can be done, just be realistic... as everyone fights for that tiny % of market share. Ask yourself are you doing more than the next guy to gain it?
Plus the more interaction the more people can really learn.
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Following on from what's been mentioned count how many sponsors we have (I counted about 29)and count how many contribute other than just in there own section to sell or advertise (I worked out about 10)
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Following on from what's been mentioned count how many sponsors we have (I counted about 29)and count how many contribute other than just in there own section to sell or advertise (I worked out about 10)
for me becoming a forum sponsor gives you a platform. the rest is up to you. To be honest im not a massive fan of pushing the brand every 5 minutes to everyone. Ill offer my services if someone wants a bat but i wont push it. the decision is with the buyer. Maybe thats why i havent had a huge amount of sales from the forum. Dont get me wrong i have received orders from forumites which i wouldnt have had without sponsoring but im not the kind of person who will be pushing for orders. id love to be busier and maybe i should push more but im not that kind of person.
I do like to join in with discussions aswell as making new topics. i think you need to be part of a forum rather than just use it as a selling tool. Im sure others may have a different point of view on both how Red Ink is portrayed and on the particpation both myself and other sponsors have.
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You contribute and not just sell which I personally think is a very good thing
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You contribute and not just sell which I personally think is a very good thing
thanks. i wasnt aiming that directly at you. just happened to be the last comment to quote on. replying probably would have been better lol
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My take on this is as a customer who lives outside of UK I have very little knowledge/awareness about all the other small brands out there. So when a question is asked I go back to what I have used, which is due to them being sponsors here.
+1
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It's ok I'm used to getting picked on
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You contribute and not just sell which I personally think is a very good thing
Bang on! Don't try to be clever, be real, be human.
If you mean what you say because it's an extension of you and your personality its easier for people to connect to what it is you are saying...
Conversation is key. The moment you see a target audience and not a person then you read the wrong book or took some bad advice.
The whole brand thing for most of the smaller set up is and has been mis sold.... Dont be anything other than yourselves, its that simplicity in being small, being independent and having the talent to do something by hand makes YOU the brand. Convey that and you are getting it right.
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It's ok I'm used to getting picked on
well if thats the case we may aswell do it properly. you could always open a 'lets pick on roco' topic and see how many contribute to that lol
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Haha it would be most posted topic in no time as a few on here have met little old me so easy target but I'm easy going so just laugh
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well if thats the case we may aswell do it properly. you could always open a 'lets pick on roco' topic and see how many contribute to that lol
we dont want the forum to crash....
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we dont want the forum to crash....
Trust you to pipe up
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Personally, I get put off by constant references to any particular brand. It makes me more determined to plough my own path and not 'follow the crowd'. It was these sentiments that drove me to this forum in the first place. I wanted something a bit 'different' and I found it.
Unfortunately, these days the forum seems to follow fashions a little too much for my liking and I would definitely like to see a few more companies interacting more if only to stop this aspect of the forum. It can be no surprise that the 'fashionable brands' are also owned by the people who interact the most and that is testament to them. It shows it works. A bit more free will from the buyers wouldn't be a bad thing though.
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I like Dan's idea with Vantage. I think a net session with some of the lesser used sponsor bats is an excellent way to be introduced to a batmaker.
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'Pick a brand that you like the stickers of' is a common view put across by some.
This is a pretty open statement.
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I've been on and off these forums for a fair few years now that they are more of an enabler then a sales tool... [It is difficult supplying 40mm edges at 2lb 7oz finished and fully dressed all the time :D]
I dont like jumping onto threads saying wanted for X pounds a bat or something similar.... I dont see the point in that....
For those that predominantly do web based sales the forum is a place where people can come and have a look at you other then your website... if you contribute to the forum, like Roco says, it shows people what you are like, what you potentially know etc. That said I do most of that via Norbs but hey I've been Norbs on the forums for years so more then comfortable with that...
There are loads of bat making threads and what if scenarios [profiles, pressing handles willow etc etc] that other bat makers can get involved in if they wish to without being sponsors that will give them exposure on here... They either dont know this place exists, dont have the time, dont have a reason to do it, chose not to....
So i think it is down them really not us
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[It is difficult supplying 40mm edges at 2lb 7oz finished and fully dressed all the time :D]
.... And in Pro grade English willow at less than £100 :D :D :D
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Thought I'd ask in here instead of starting a whole new thread - what happened to Vantage Cricket, are they no longer forum sponsors hence don't have a sub-forum any more?
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Thought I'd ask in here instead of starting a whole new thread - what happened to Vantage Cricket, are they no longer forum sponsors hence don't have a sub-forum any more?
No idea, but quite a few sponsors have stopped sponsoring. Perhaps it is for the time being however, as sales are generally a little low at this time of year, and things will pick up in a few months time, so they might just be cancelling sponsorship until then. 8)
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I thought Vantage were gearing up for a big 2013 under new ownership...?
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shame as seemed like the new ownership seemed to be doing some good things, like getting some stock in with IJC....
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Not saying this has happens to vantage because I do not know them
But with the advance of small brands others will perish
There only room/sales within the whole market for so much.
I think the brands and shops are at a fragile point right I think the strongest will survive whilst the rest will disappear within the next 12-18 months
What you have is tax paying company's up against small operations not paying tax and what not I suspect the whole industry is fragmented due to what I call local sales to a degree and local brands
I take my bat off to a a you pod shavers working full time fair play to you all
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It is a very interesting time for cricket supply shops/brands. There are so many around now that some surely won't survive or at least provide enough profit to keep it viable.
2 guys I know use Hawk bats they got this season (2012), I've only had a close look at one but it was a lovely bat. Seemed to go ok too. The other guy is an older guy hanging onto his first team slot and giving himself opening slots midweek and sundays purely because he's got the first team capt. He is a slogger and thinks that using a 3lb bat is awesome.. Shame he can't really get it off the square though even when swinging hard. It is amusing. Now, is that hte bat or the user??? (I'd suggest user)
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Well for me this year it year of the custom
I have decided because I back in England airspace I not going to buy a bat unless I can see it being made for me
I will get my customary bat from my Pakistan friend when he arrives in April and I think or hope to start this soon it great to be back and maybe a msr or two