Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Latest Matches => Ashes 2013/2014 => Topic started by: tim2000s on December 07, 2013, 10:58:45 AM
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For the third time, England have been utterly terrible in their batting with little resistance and almost no application, and faced with the pace of Johnson, don't have an answer.
Is it that England are playing badly, Australia are playing really well, or that there is something else amiss with the England team? From the win in the summer to what is looking like it could be a whitewash in the winter, what has gone wrong?
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A combination of all three I think Tim.
Putting aside the playing, back-to-back Ashes must be so intense and we all know that England's players are the only ones who play year round, year on year. The bowlers look tired, the batsmen making poor decisions. They all look mentally tired.
Australia have the adrenaline rush of playing at home, are used to the conditions and are not 12,000 miles from familiar surroundings. That and Johnson is terrifying them!
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England relied on super strength to mask some mediocre but when the super strength is average the rest is exposed..
Australia are playing better cricket in the 4 phases . with the main one luck on there side.
Fair play
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In some ways I hope England do get whitewashed, maybe it will give them the kick they need to play without arrogance, and at least try, they are batting too slow and putting pressure on themselves and playing silly shots, like root and KP.
Fair play to the Aussies using some aggression and putting England on the back foot, how long before johnson makes half of them leave with stress related illnesses??
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we look totally unprepared for facing anything over 90mph, this cannot be something that hasnt been worked on it nets etc but its like bringing a knife to a gun fight when our "batsmen" walk out to the crease.
few players have the mental strength to stick it out and even Monty's 2 from 34 balls showed what needs to be done. KP shot is inexcusable given the situation. Prior is totally out of form with the bat and has been for some time and the rest are classified as the bowlers.
that said i fail to see why Aus didnt enforce the follow on to maintain the upper hand and put us back in whilst confidence is low, if we can eek a draw out of this it will be Cardiff all over again and could go towards boosting team morale and (clutching at straws) be the turning point we need.
Hats of to Aus some great cricket summed up for me by Warners catch that broke what needed to be a big partnership between Bell and Carbs.
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Looking at today's efforts all that was needed was for someone to hold an end up and let Bell bat... They couldn't do it.... Bell knew it and batted like he had no confidence in his team mates up at the other end... He then tried to score quick runs before he ran out of partners.... At the moment it looks like only Carberry and Bell are going to score runs... Cook and KP can pull one out of the hat but it's not happening at the moment.
Every player apart from Bell looks to be petrified to face Johnson...
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In some ways I hope England do get whitewashed, maybe it will give them the kick they need to play without arrogance, and at least try, they are batting too slow and putting pressure on themselves and playing silly shots, like root and KP.
Fair play to the Aussies using some aggression and putting England on the back foot, how long before johnson makes half of them leave with stress related illnesses??
Bit more to it than that fella leave the stress illnesses out of it hey!!!!!!
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Bit more to it than that fella leave the stress illnesses out of it hey!!!!!!
There may be more to it, but its embarrassing and quite frankly I have no interest in supporting them, well only the batting side. The bowlers are trying and bowling fairly well. And the stress illness, maybe it was too far, but it wouldn't suprise me, with the "cooks ashes" etc. Everyone is entitled to an opinion
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how long before johnson makes half of them leave with stress related illnesses??
Real classy that
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Ah the armchair fan, you have to love us.
When things go well were all behind the team, when the chips are down were more than happy to put the boot in too....we have to take the rough with the smooth and things might not be going as we as fans would want currently but if your going to stop following your country when form is down then you may as well stop supporting England s we have experienced this in every sport we play as a nation.
As for the mental illness, as Dave says its not the case of Trott not fancying the challenge of facing a few quick deliveries. If you think that then your being naive and a bit short sighted about how deep it goes.
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England have to find positives Bell and Carberry.
Every dog has his day ours will come again....
Just might take 20 years hahah
I support them every last one even Root the Yorkshire lad we can bash them but there our boys out troops. Pick up your tools and fight on
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we have not had proper match prep.
our batsmen are out of form due to not playing matches enough and lack confidence.
none of the players have worked out a method to deal with Johnson who has been riding the wave of form, but he is also a very awkward player to face.
dropping catches has also really hurt us, this is am indication of a lack of confidence.
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I find it hard to believe that they didn't prepare for the bowling Mitchell Johnson has given them. I'm
Not taking anything away from Johnson, he has been exceptional, but England knew he was going to be hostile towards them and it would be quick and short. Granted there aren't many bowlers like that in England but surely having mills from Essex around the squad is about as good as they will get?
To me they look like they are running on empty. Hard to blame he schedules but to me they look tired. Saying this is jumping on the bandwagon somewhat but I wonder if this is the first real signs of this team being on the wane. Swann has looked ineffective and the batting has been awful. I can see flower quitting at the end of this series meaning they'll need a new coach (no doubt some support staff too) and the team will be pretty low.
Didn't we play the same prep games as last time this year? Can't even blame that!
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Not in anyway did I doubt Jonathons illness, what I was suggesting that with them all struggling to find form and struggling to please the English fans, the stress from the pressure that is exerted from all the fans, could cause it, with johnson being the bowling that is making them struggle. I am aloud to question things, this is a forum and I aired a view. Maybe some people took it the wrong way, no offence was meant.
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Dropped catches has hurt us big time in this test. Dropping Clarke (tough chance) and Haddin wouldn't made a massive difference.
I just don't see how we will make 200 never mind 400. Cook looks mentally shot, not surprising the time we've spent in the field. Root and KP need to stand up and be counted and god knows who has stolen Matt Prior's batting ability.
Are bowling attack looks pedestrian and the rub of the green isn't going our way.
Other than that I'm enjoying the sun and beer - even tho it's 7 bucks a shot!
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Whilst England have regressed over the last 18 months.
Australia have improved since the English Summer Ashes.
If some of you remember Harris and Siddle where all over England in the summer. Clarke's problem was Pattinson, Starc and Bird where all over you the place.
Starc and Pattinson where going at 4rpo every innings. Releasing the pressure Harris and Siddle created.
Couple with the shocking decision to play Agar ahead of Lyon in Trent bridge and Lords compounded Clarke's problems.
Since Lyon got recalled, he's given Clarke controll.
And now the new and improved Mitchell Johnson gives Clarke the firepower to turn the screw after Harris/Siddle/Lyon build up pressure.
Johnson's been bowling well, and fast, for thr last 12-18 months. Which made his summer omission more surprising.
This isn't the left or right Johnson anymore.
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Guys like Starc and Pattinson, super talented, but erred in line and length too many. And bowled to short in England.
Johnson hasn't given England his old weakness. The short ball outside off stump or the ball on the pads.
Johnson's gone away and came back magnificently.
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Prior
1st test eng 1 & 31
2nd test 6 & 1*
3rd test 30
4th test 17 & 0
5th test 47 & 0*
sussex 23
sussex 16 & 6
warm up 4
warm up 26
1st test 0 & 4
2nd test 0 & ???
Unless he gets a high high score in the 2nd innings and saved the test he should be dropped. Unfortunately I don't think I will see that happen.
On the other gloves though haddin is in some form....
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Prior
1st test eng 1 & 31
2nd test 6 & 1*
3rd test 30
4th test 17 & 0
5th test 47 & 0*
sussex 23
sussex 16 & 6
warm up 4
warm up 26
1st test 0 & 4
2nd test 0 & ???
Unless he gets a high high score in the 2nd innings and saved the test he should be dropped. Unfortunately I don't think I will see that happen.
On the other gloves though haddin is in some form....
I knew his run was bad wow that's worse that I thought!
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Prior
1st test eng 1 & 31
2nd test 6 & 1*
3rd test 30
4th test 17 & 0
5th test 47 & 0*
sussex 23
sussex 16 & 6
warm up 4
warm up 26
1st test 0 & 4
2nd test 0 & ???
He doesn't get on with Spartan gear?
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He doesn't get on with Spartan gear?
So that unbeaten hundred using Spartan gear means nothing??
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So that unbeaten hundred using Spartan gear means nothing??
Not right now, no.
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Not right now, no.
I don't think it's anything to do with not getting on with gear tbh, he's probably using the same bats he always has done with different stickers on.
Form is a curious thing, just one innings with the cricket gods smiling at you turns it around
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Gear has nothing to do with his form. He's just not batting well at all
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Gear has nothing to do with his form. He's just not batting well at all
Thanks Tom, confirming I'm not mad haha
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I think this says everything you need. It's Johnson.
"England's middle order in this series has now been detonated three times in three knocks: six wickets for nine runs in the first innings in Brisbane, four for nine in the second and now four for six here in Adelaide."
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In some ways I hope England do get whitewashed, maybe it will give them the kick they need to play without arrogance, and at least try, they are batting too slow and putting pressure on themselves and playing silly shots, like root and KP.
Fair play to the Aussies using some aggression and putting England on the back foot, how long before johnson makes half of them leave with stress related illnesses??
Completely out or order this post and complete nuts
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Batting too slow makes you arrogant now? Damn, I must come across as a very arrogant player in a large amount of my games :(.
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One team is on the rise (although they how a few oldies so won't be rising for long without new players coming through) and England's main players are on the wane. Wrong side of 30 most of them, been there ages and no real competition for their places.
It's a cycle all teams go through tbh BUT give. This is a national side they should have been planning and watching for these guys to start the dip, send them to pasture and have the next cab ready to go . None of it's happened so now we have his situation. Catches win matches and searching a take like Warner's is something this England side did between 2009-2011 consistently but now can barley catch a cold.. Sign of a poor team in my opinion. I don't personally think this aus side is that good, they are just better than this England side.
Batting slow is arrogant ?? Oh right, that's a new one
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Its quite simple really. England are not as solid as they used to be and have lost a little quality in the batting dept. Aussie have done their homework really well + their batsmen are applying them selves and of course Johnson is on fire.
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On the plus side Bell is finally looking like a truly world class batsman. I've been very critical of him in the past as he had all the talent but rarely delivered under real pressure. In the last ashes series and this one he has looked a class above the rest and for that reason he should be batting at 3. This would also make the batting line up look much stronger and hopefully help stop KP coming in too early.
Carberry too has looked good. He seems to have a good temperament and looked unfazed by Root and KP throwing their wickets away. I was really surprised that some commentators criticised him when he got out. He was patient and waited for the right ball which was short and asking to be hit. Had be ballooned to in the air trying to smack it out the ground and been caught on the fence it would have been a bad shot, but he nailed it and got over the top of it. It was just unfortunate that Warner pulled off a stunning catch.
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Sometimes teams just drop the ball for some reason. I remember India when they were number 1 just came off a drawn series in SA where they did very well, then won the World Cup. Everything seemed to be just right in all formats.
Came into England and got thumped and whitewashed, and followed that up with another whitewash in Australia. Not sure what changed in those few months.
England seem a little like that, they look jaded and not quite the same. Johnson has of course been a major factor, but I feel alot of this is due to England just not having their mojo at the moment. Australia have stepped up in all departments as a team and that shows, while England have just gone a few steps back.
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One team is on the rise (although they how a few oldies so won't be rising for long without new players coming through) and England's main players are on the wane. Wrong side of 30 most of them, been there ages and no real competition for their places.
It's a cycle all teams go through tbh BUT give. This is a national side they should have been planning and watching for these guys to start the dip, send them to pasture and have the next cab ready to go . None of it's happened so now we have his situation. Catches win matches and searching a take like Warner's is something this England side did between 2009-2011 consistently but now can barley catch a cold.. Sign of a poor team in my opinion. I don't personally think this aus side is that good, they are just better than this England side.
Batting slow is arrogant ?? Oh right, that's a new one
Things like this don't suddenly come on like that though. Players don't suddenly lose their form permanently :-[. We also do have a large amount of younger players waiting for the places, they're just not getting in because no ones being dropped!
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Root played an attacking shot to the spinner, he got a top edge, if it had been about 2mm down his bat, it would have been 6 and a great shot.
Pietersen played one of his best scoring shots straight to a fielder.
Carberry hit the ball straight at a fielder.
I don't understand how people are saying one was a bad shot when another wasn't? Yeah, Carberry middled it, straight to a fielder aho took a good catch down low to his left. He could have got both hands to it.
If Carberry was unlucky to pock a fielder out at regulation square leg when he could have smashed the ball into the crowd, then Root was unlucky to mistime a perfectly acceptable shot. Its not as if Root came dancing down the track, having a big swish and missing it.
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Things like this don't suddenly come on like that though. Players don't suddenly lose their form permanently :-[. We also do have a large amount of younger players waiting for the places, they're just not getting in because no ones being dropped!
As has been mentioned before you don't just suddenly become crap but you tail off. More poor or below avg innings and less quality innings. Prior is an example of this. He's always been liable to get out early but used to also score some good runs, currently he's having more bad and less good. That to me are the signs a player is on the wane. It's not an exact science, some will decline at 31.. Some at 35. I think you and I should agree to disagree as we actually say the same but take each other's words literally. I didn't say there weren't any youngsters coming through.. I just said they've not succession planned right as we now have our main guys and then rookies.
It hasn't 'suddenly' come on though has it, just look at all the 11 playing today's batting since 2009 year on year and you'll see it's been declining for 12-18 months for the majority. If you look game on game scores then it becomes more obvious whose performing less often as an overall stat can be misleading .
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Root played an attacking shot to the spinner, he got a top edge, if it had been about 2mm down his bat, it would have been 6 and a great shot.
Pietersen played one of his best scoring shots straight to a fielder.
Carberry hit the ball straight at a fielder.
I don't understand how people are saying one was a bad shot when another wasn't? Yeah, Carberry middled it, straight to a fielder aho took a good catch down low to his left. He could have got both hands to it.
If Carberry was unlucky to pock a fielder out at regulation square leg when he could have smashed the ball into the crowd, then Root was unlucky to mistime a perfectly acceptable shot. Its not as if Root came dancing down the track, having a big swish and missing it.
Not sure anyone who can be taken seriously will blame Carberry for his dismissal. Maybe he could have hit it a bit behind square but he kept it down etc. unlike KP whose shot was just terrible. Root's dismissal was bad in my books as it wasn't a % shot. Lyon bowls with over spin which will give him extra bounce. So sweeping is more dangerous. Add to that the position the England team were in it probably (IMO) wasn't a % shot.
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Maybe he shouldn't hit it at a fielder then. If KP or Cook had got outon 60,they'd have been lambasted for not going on and getting a hundred.
If you don't blame Carberry, then you cant blame Root for seeing off the opening bowlers and trying to take on the spinner. Obviously 50-odd for 1 is not a time to play attacking, so when is?
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Maybe he shouldn't hit it at a fielder then. If KP or Cook had got outon 60,they'd have been lambasted for not going on and getting a hundred.
If you don't blame Carberry, then you cant blame Root for seeing off the opening bowlers and trying to take on the spinner. Obviously 50-odd for 1 is not a time to play attacking, so when is?
Didn't say don't play attacking shots did I. For gods sake read the post.
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You said "the position England were in". Well, they were 57-1. That was the position they were in at the time.
I read your post fine and correctly.
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In the kind of position England were in, all the batsmen should have been playing shots that would score runs safely. None of these three did. That's the end of it. All got out to shots with a higher risk than necessary. And Carberry should be lambasted for getting out on 60 on a flat pitch. All in all, simply not good enough.
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In the kind of position England were in, all the batsmen should have been playing shots that would score runs safely. None of these three did. That's the end of it. All got out to shots with a higher risk than necessary. And Carberry should be lambasted for getting out on 60 on a flat pitch. All in all, simply not good enough.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
Not really 'exactly' what you said is it?
Anyway, you and I won't agree so best of agreeing to disagree and not polluting this thread anymore.
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Root played an attacking shot to the spinner, he got a top edge, if it had been about 2mm down his bat, it would have been 6 and a great shot.
Pietersen played one of his best scoring shots straight to a fielder.
Carberry hit the ball straight at a fielder.
I don't understand how people are saying one was a bad shot when another wasn't? Yeah, Carberry middled it, straight to a fielder aho took a good catch down low to his left. He could have got both hands to it.
If Carberry was unlucky to pock a fielder out at regulation square leg when he could have smashed the ball into the crowd, then Root was unlucky to mistime a perfectly acceptable shot. Its not as if Root came dancing down the track, having a big swish and missing it.
Pretty much is what I said.
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I don't think it's anything to do with not getting on with gear tbh, he's probably using the same bats he always has done with different stickers on.
Form is a curious thing, just one innings with the cricket gods smiling at you turns it around
My comment was tongue in cheek. People on here have particular interest in kit, right?
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My comment was tongue in cheek. People on here have particular interest in kit, right?
Nah, don't think so. Happy to use anything and everything, just like everyone on here.
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I think the 3-0 scoreline in the series played in the English summer did not tell how close it was - the Lords test was the only flogging the Aussies got but in the 2nd dig England could have been 50-5 or so if Haddin had taken a regulation edge from Root and the Smith's catch off Bell had stood then the match in all likelihood would have been very close. I'm not saying the Aussies should have won the series as England were clearly better under pressure and that is why they won.
The big difference now is that Lehman has had a chance to really bring the team together and get them performing as a unit - Micky Arthur is no doubt a good technical coach but what he seemed to try and do to the Australian cricket team was build a team culture that was built on principles from strategic HR management consequently it didn't wash with a lot of the players. In my view it would be very difficult for Arthur to fully understand what cricket means in Australia and certainly what Ashes cricket means. Lehman does understand this and consequently has been able to build a stronger Australian side. Johnson has a been key but also the batting order has not capitulated completely as they had started to do in recent times. I appreciate that England has had a lot of success with foreign coaches and this would seem to undermine my argument but cricket in Australia is part of the marrow of the culture.
England are still a very good team and could possibly turn this series around as a result. I'm not convinced about Cook as captain, he looks seriously stressed when the pressure comes on and his batting now appears to be suffering and for the last number of years he has been a rock for the batting order. Bell is superb and is definitely able to cope with the pressure applied by the Australian team but remember he learned this as a result of going through hell out here when he was young and Warne told all he was his bunny. Broad is pretty fired up but Anderson seems to be a little low on zip and he is a fantastic bowler.
In short I think England are still good but the Aussies are starting to play with the intensity and belief of some of our more successful sides and England has not faced this for a few years.
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Nah, don't think so. Happy to use anything and everything, just like everyone on here.
I just meant people are interested in kit.
Aren't some people very particular about grains, weights, edge sizes etc., though? Isn't that what they spend most of their time on here talking about?
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one of the important things the Aussies have done really well is keep eng bowling. this is massively demoralising and makes the batting collapses so hard to take.
I feel for them. eng need some luck and some brilliance to square this series...
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Ive posted on here before 3-0 flattered us in the summer.Good to see a balanced view from lefty above.
Australia are playing good aggresive cricket,everything is going for the and rightly so-we are being outplayed.
Some people on here have short memories,these players with a huge influence from flower have dragged england up by their bootlaces in recent years.nasser started it,followed by vaughan and strauss,now cook
Any true England fan supports the team thru thick and thin.
Everyone has their own opinion of course and are free to express it.
I for one will be getting behind the team even more.
I was at Sydney and Melbourne in 94- where the aussies fans gave it to us large.
This tour is heading down the toilet but have some faith.
Well played australia so far
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I remember watching england play pakistan in the uae - you got beaten but the team spirit was huge from what i saw on the tv - you need to find that again..unless you've been here during the ashes i think its hard to feel the intensity your boys are under. When australia are playing with this intensity the atmosphere is fever pitch. I mean if the papers reported that Steve Waugh walked on water yesterday 90% of sydney-siders would believe without a second thought.
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I remember watching england play pakistan in the uae - you got beaten but the team spirit was huge from what i saw on the tv - you need to find that again..unless you've been here during the ashes i think its hard to feel the intensity your boys are under. When australia are playing with this intensity the atmosphere is fever pitch. I mean if the papers reported that Steve Waugh walked on water yesterday 90% of sydney-siders would believe without a second thought.
Exactly right.
There is an all pervasive air of vengeance in Australia that is palpable.
Everyone from the old men waiting for busses and trams to the school kids in the play ground are talking about crushing England and regaining the Urn.
In my home suburb in Melbourne at the main intersection, there is a massive old style electronic scoreboard updating the scores sponsored by Victoria Bitter. No matter which direction you are driving in from, you can see it. Talk about ensuring everyone knows what the state of play is!
I will see if I take a photo of it at some point...it is incredible.
They say this is what it was like in 2005 in England. All I can say is that cricket is front and back page news (not that unusual in Oz admittedly) and every news bulletin of Mitch Johnson's latest wrecking ball spells has been reported with a barely concealed sadistic glee stirring up the blood lust in the masses.
Fee fye foe fum I smell the blood of an Englisman, be he alive or be he dead, Mitch Johnson will break their bones and skewer their head...
It is all happening down here at the moment!
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Exactly right.
There is an all pervasive air of vengeance in Australia that is palpable.
Everyone from the old men waiting for busses and trams to the school kids in the play ground are talking about crushing England and regaining the Urn.
In my home suburb in Melbourne at the main intersection, there is a massive old style electronic scoreboard updating the scores sponsored by Victoria Bitter. No matter which direction you are driving in from, you can see it. Talk about ensuring everyone knows what the state of play is!
I will see if I take a photo of it at some point...it is incredible.
They say this is what it was like in 2005 in England. All I can say is that cricket is front and back page news (not that unusual in Oz admittedly) and every news bulletin of Mitch Johnson's latest wrecking ball spells has been reported with a barely concealed sadistic glee stirring up the blood lust in the masses.
Fee fye foe fum I smell the blood of an Englisman, be he alive or be he dead, Mitch Johnson will break their bones and skewer their head...
It is all happening down here at the moment!
Of it's like 2005 for the Aussies then that's brilliant for cricket !
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Oh and another stupid shot from carberry. What were we saying earlier?
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Oh and another stupid shot from carberry. What were we saying earlier?
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KP with a bit of a lazy shot :(
Bell... What the frigging hell was that shot ??
Broad- get back in your box you over hyped turnip and concentrate on batting please and not the big I am!!
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Oh well, at least a little more stickability at the crease today. I hope we can hang on in there and make it hard for the Aussies tomorrow.
It's a mixture of belief and form surely?
England need a decent injection of belief, and a few old hands need to stand up and be counted and drag the rest of the touring party up to a positive place. It's up to these guys to turn this around now. Whether this test is lost or drawn, you've got to pick the best 11 for Perth based on their current form and their confidence levels.
This is the Ashes, England v Australia - you pick the best side to win for your country and bugger reputation or what history individuals have.
Cook
kP
Prior
Anderson
Swann
Have you got the balls and desire to stand up and be counted, and play out of your skins?
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A combination of all three I think Tim.
Putting aside the playing, back-to-back Ashes must be so intense and we all know that England's players are the only ones who play year round, year on year. The bowlers look tired, the batsmen making poor decisions. They all look mentally tired.
Australia have the adrenaline rush of playing at home, are used to the conditions and are not 12,000 miles from familiar surroundings. That and Johnson is terrifying them!
Australia don't play all year round?? When Australia played great cricket when they won 8 Ashes series in a row then on the other hand played like crap when they lost 3 in a row. England right now are playing like crap and are a beaten team, don't over analyse or look for excuses that are not there.
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Quite right G-dog, It's like the circle of life.
England were once the mighty predator, now they are the prey.
They are the escaped Gerbil to Australia's urban fox!
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This giant old style test ground scoreboard is situated at the main traffic intersection of my suburb!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/cooldewd/Kewscoreboard.jpg)
You can see that Ashes cricket interest is at a fever pitch around Oz at the moment!
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A pommie mate of mine, a very annoyed one at the moment mind, is wondering that when the pressure gets really turned up, as it has been so far this series, whether theres real bottom of the gut determination in this England side, or, in his words," theres a voice in the back of their heads saying, sod this, not fun anymore and im not a pom anyway, just a cricket pro, im out of here....." I hadnt thought of thst before he mentioned it.
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A pommie mate of mine, a very annoyed one at the moment mind, is wondering that when the pressure gets really turned up, as it has been so far this series, whether theres real bottom of the gut determination in this England side, or, in his words," theres a voice in the back of their heads saying, sod this, not fun anymore and im not a pom anyway, just a cricket pro, im out of here....." I hadnt thought of thst before he mentioned it.
The only one to not make even a small mark on this series is Cook, who is very English.
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Yeah, Pietersen hasn't exactly thrown in the towel.
Prior looks like he is fighting for his life.
Stokes looked like an angry Kiwi too.