Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => World Cricket => England => Topic started by: uknsaunders on December 09, 2013, 05:44:44 PM
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Interesting twitter exchange here:-
https://twitter.com/Ponty100mph
Concerning Englands bowlers and some pics:-
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbDb1kACEAA4hXv.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbDycMKCcAE0S4p.jpg:large)
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No wonder our guys can't get it above 85 mph.
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I have been to one of Ian Pont's training seminars, no doubt that it works Catherine Dalton was there, 5'8 thin and bowling mid 80's on the speed gun.......
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Looking about, speaking club and county youth standard there seems to be a million and one people who can offer batting tips but very few who know what they're talking about when it comes to spin or fast bowling. Speaking as a junior coach and I do this myself I feel we are very guilty of focussing only on batsman creating a perfect cover drive and neglecting a young quicky, front arm up is often the only advice they receive. I think a lot of junior cricketers pick up very bad bowling habits simply because coaches don't know what they're looking for and the ECB courses don't really help, thoughts?
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I think it is easier to "fix" a batsman than a bowler. You can look at the stance, eyes, head, how they play the shot and can do this slowly without a ball.
It is a lot more tricky to slow down a bowler without changing his action. A lot more video analysis is helpful with bowling, which coaches often don't have.
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Video analysis is key to bowling, and also the old coaching curriculum said 'if something looks odd in a bowling action, get a higher level coach in to look at it'. Coaches have no confidence to adjust technique!
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Is 'fixing' a players always good though?..there are lots of examples of players completely losing their natural skills just cos someone suggested a different technique or identified a 'correction'. I think this doesnt really apply for International players. all this correction makes sense for kids who are just starting, but if a player has made it to the national side surely he must have done something right. Why change it then?
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Is 'fixing' a players always good though?..there are lots of examples of players completely losing their natural skills just cos someone suggested a different technique or identified a 'correction'. I think this doesnt really apply for International players. all this correction makes sense for kids who are just starting, but if a player has made it to the national side surely he must have done something right. Why change it then?
I agree with you there, I think they tried to "fix" Devon Malcolm's technique, he turned into a disaster.
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Malinga would have been changed, so would Tait. And if they had been, would they have played more tests? Perhaps! Its a toss up between maintaining effectiveness, or prolonging careers! Adjusting glaringly obvious technical weaknesses to a normal technical model however, is completely different to a complete technical redesign based on a coaches' view of an athlete's action being unorthodox.
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Didn't they change Andersons when he first played tests. And needed up back at lancasthire as poor bowler.
So he changed back and got back to test level.
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For every one that gets worse due to changes, I bet there are more that improve. Whether it is a yard quicker, more accurate, better strength.
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Malinga was coached and they tried to change his action. After a few sessions they realised that he was losing his effectiveness and accuracy and they stopped and told him to go back to what he did.
I think there are two points here - if someone is naturally unorthodox sometimes it is better to make suggestions but in general to leave the play alone, especially if they are successful.
In the case of Stokes - he is trying to be orthodox, so should be helped in that process.
Don't forget that Ian Pont has a business to promote so will always seek to point out ways that he believes will make a bowler faster in public so that more of the paying public will use his services. That doesn't make him right all the time - but he has had many successes.
In this case I think he has a point, it does beg the question as to what his coaches have been doing as he developed.
If you want to see two players with what Ian Pont thinks have the most efficient actions - look no further than Brett Lee and Dale Steyn.
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Yeah, that is my point though... change for changes sake is pointless. Little things like running in straighter, or getting your front arm higher will help! As long as its safe, and effective, leave it be. However, when things start falling apart, that is when little changes should be made. In those pictures, there should be a lot of things that should be worked on because a) they're not a complete overhaul, and b) they're bowling very poorly currently.
Buzz, if Malinga had come through this countries system, there would be no way he would have got to 15 with that action, let alone test match level!
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I was struggling to work out which two bowlers it was!
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Ian Pont didn't exactly set the world on fire as a cricketer. Nor did that other 'top coach', Gary Palmer.
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Ian Pont didn't exactly set the world on fire as a cricketer. Nor did that other 'top coach', Gary Palmer.
José Mourinho, Arsène Wenger weren't exactly tip top when it came to football careers... they seem to do ok as coaches.
If you applied the logic you have to be brilliant at something to understand it then Gazza would be in charge of Real Madrid.
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How many 'top coaches' did though?
Duncan Fletcher never set the world alight in FC cricket, played a couple of ODI's, but has been one of the most succesful coaches at International level in the last 15 years
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Couldn't find it online, but there was a great article in AOC from (I think) Denniss Lillee about how actions are meticulously coached these days. He didn't exactly hold back on his thoughts of it....
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Point taken. I remember Michael Holding saying something similar on Sky. And he was brilliant at something!
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If you applied the logic you have to be brilliant at something to understand it then Gazza would be in charge of Real Madrid.
Or a brewery?
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Ian Pont didn't exactly set the world on fire as a cricketer. Nor did that other 'top coach', Gary Palmer.
I really wish people would think before opening their mouths! The whole idea that to be a top coach you have to be a good player is completely bollox! It is a theory that has been consistently blown out of the water! I bet if you looked at the % of international players in top coaching jobs (and being successful) is lower than the % who were average players, or players who had to work extremely hard to get there. There is a misguided thought that because you are good at something, you should be able to teach it to some-one else, but I bet that if you asked the best players how they do it, I bet they would struggle because it 'comes naturally', or 'its just what I do'. Players who had to work extremely hard to get anywhere will be much better coaches because they will understand the processes, and I would imagine the majority of (especially) county coaches will be made up of average middle of the road players. In fact, name me one coach who has more than a handful of caps, coaching at county level.
However, there is also a ceiling that great amateur coaches with no experience of playing first class cricket can get to. I have been doing some work with a level 3 coach, ex England cricketer, who is the most average coach I have ever seen. I know full well that I am a better coach but because I haven't got the experience of playing international cricket, I will never get an opportunity!
....... And Breat
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I'm sorry, but I wouldn't want Ian Pont coaching England.
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Well no, neither would I, but there are also bound to be ex players who weren't very good, who aren't very good coaches as well lol!
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Isn't there a saying that good coaches know when to leave things alone?
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Agreed!
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If you applied the logic you have to be brilliant at something to understand it then Gazza would be in charge of Real Madrid.
I'd love to see this
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They would become Surreal Madrid!
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Gary Palmer was one of the top young players in England upto the age of 19. Bowled mid 80's and scored big runs in the middle order. Was captain of England from u15 to u19. Had a decent career with Somerset cut short by injury and the burden of being the next Botham. Also played squash for England I think.
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Gary Palmer was one of the top young players in England upto the age of 19. Bowled mid 80's and scored big runs in the middle order. Was captain of England from u15 to u19. Had a decent career with Somerset cut short by injury and the burden of being the next Botham. Also played squash for England I think.
I suspect he was bullied by Botham at Somerset. In fact, I once saw evidence first hand.
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Doubt it
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Doubt it
Really? You don't think Botham has it in him to be a bully?
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Bowled mid 80's
Had an action that Ian Pont would have loved to have tinkered with!
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No
Good action. Was over bowled and poorly managed. As were most fast bowler in the 80's and 90's
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Good action.
You wouldn't say it was economical!
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I think Ian Pont either at junior or development level would be good within the England setup. By the time they reach the England setup they should be near the finished article. The coaching should then consist of tactics against oppo batsman and practising skills. For me somebody like Saker is better than a Pont in the current setup. The fundamentals of a bowlers action should not be tampered with during a test series. Who is to say bending that front leg on delivery helps minimise stress on the knee joint? Could be many reasons for bowlers actions during tests, most likely down to staying on the park. I heard a story that Jimmy Anderson reduced the pressure going through his front foot from x5 to x2 his own bodyweight. Some people might say it's reduced his pace but it's probably extended his career.
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Gary Palmer was one of the top young players in England upto the age of 19. Bowled mid 80's and scored big runs in the middle order. Was captain of England from u15 to u19. Had a decent career with Somerset cut short by injury and the burden of being the next Botham. Also played squash for England I think.
And there in lies the problem. Too talented. That is the problem that these sportsmen are good at too much, they need to share the talent out with others. ;)
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Haha yes Gary had lots going on. His dad and uncle playing for Somerset and his dad being a test umpire as he was trying to make the grade. He was under lots of pressure for sure.
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You wouldn't say it was economical!
What do you mean ?
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What do you mean ?
It was 'busy' - a lot of moving parts!
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I think Ian Pont either at junior or development level would be good within the England setup. By the time they reach the England setup they should be near the finished article. The coaching should then consist of tactics against oppo batsman and practising skills. For me somebody like Saker is better than a Pont in the current setup. The fundamentals of a bowlers action should not be tampered with during a test series. Who is to say bending that front leg on delivery helps minimise stress on the knee joint? Could be many reasons for bowlers actions during tests, most likely down to staying on the park. I heard a story that Jimmy Anderson reduced the pressure going through his front foot from x5 to x2 his own bodyweight. Some people might say it's reduced his pace but it's probably extended his career.
The issue is that if you make a drastic change to a bowler's action, it takes time to get used to. A lot of players assume that because they don't have instant success, what they're doing doesn't work, so they get into a negative frame of mind, and the downward spiral starts there. If they persevere, then assuming the change was thought through, 9 times out of 10 they will become better. The issue is though that they are professionals so they can't be away from bowling from too long or they'll lose their job.
In my understanding, bending your front knee will reduce the weight going through it, but it is also more likely to cause injury because your ligaments will have to cope with the stress rather than the joint as a whole. Ligaments have a habit of snapping whereas the joint kept straight would channel the force through to your hips where it would dissipate. And, from a cricketing perspective, you'll bowl significantly slower, and with less accuracy because you are less supported in your action.
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Ian Pont didn't exactly set the world on fire as a cricketer. Nor did that other 'top coach', Gary Palmer.
What a mad statement! Does someone have to "set the world on fire" in order to judge how someone can improve? Why do top tennis players have coaches still
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Yeah exactly..... not sure sean foley could 'put a glove on' tiger......