Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Forum News and Suggestions => Old Advertisers => Admin Board => Aldred Cricket Bats => Topic started by: Aldred Cricket Bats on January 09, 2014, 02:53:31 PM
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Had a lot of people asking about the differences between top grade and grade 3 or butterfly so just threw this together in the workshop today for you. It's just off the top of my head really so a a bit segmented but gives you an idea of my thoughts. Not only does my honesty prevent me from telling everyone to buy top grade bats but also for the future of our willow stocks as we can't keep expecting them to keep producing perfect clean many grained willow clefts
http://youtu.be/4V3-bIuJVJk (http://youtu.be/4V3-bIuJVJk)
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Really admire the honesty, its a breathe of fresh air, and probably in my opinion a major factor as to why your bats have taken off so well and you have the great reputation.
Like you said you are telling people they don't need to buy the top end bats to get the best bats, so not really doing your sales any favours, but at the same time, your honesty will I'm sure, persuade people into buying your bats, and returning over and over again in the future.
Cant wait to get my hands on mine
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First class advice.
Something tells me the Aldred brand is going to be much bigger over the next few years.
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Very well put Paul. Looks aren't everything. All about performance!
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Great video!! I was also under the assumption that Grade 1 clefts (when they are graded) are comparatively lighter to an equivalent of a lower grade?
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May i ask how much are these Butterfly stained bats????
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Good to hear honesty like that!
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Butterfly is £135 shipped in uk. No the grade 3 and butterfly can be just as light as anything else really.
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Great video!! I was also under the assumption that Grade 1 clefts (when they are graded) are comparatively lighter to an equivalent of a lower grade?
graded on the grains at the bottom of the cleft, no mention of weight. They can be downgraded once prepared though.
These so called "crown clefts" are what you have described, super good looks and the weight below the magic number
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Great words.
I had a 6 grain MB Malik Zulfi (Grade 2/3) once. Was a student and brought it off eBay for £50 - It is still going!! Sold it to a teammate for £60 after using it for 5 years (Cheeky!) - Its clocked over 5000 runs now, never cracked, just about now needing a new handle.
It is certainly not about having Grade 1, nor are Grade 1s necessarily better performing. I have a few mates who went pro when I did back in 2002, who are still playing county level, who maintain to this day that butterfly staining on a bat makes it better - and I tend to agree.
TBH I reckon the best batmakers can press a piece of lumber into a decent cricket bat - it is about time and experience in cricket bat making.
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Good video Paul. A quick question, are you using the same finishing as the grade 1 on these butterfly stained bats? Only reason I ask is becasue I don't understand why polish the bat (with stains) to look whiter when it might look better with a darker finish? also considering the fact that some are now saying stains are beautiful, add character etc...why diminish the look of it then?
May be I am old school but I prefer the look of my bats better once I have had a chance to coat them in linseed oil etc, I wonder how good a butterfly stain would look if its shiny smooth finish without the whitening product....
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Great video!!
Also, love the stickers on these bats!
Will remember this when next in the market for a bat!!
A BC Joker replica mayhaps, mmmm this can make the mind wonder!
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Great video,
I have and aldred velocity grade 3 and in the nets it feels every bit as good as paul makes out.
As you say paul it is down to pressing, nothing else.
I've found with some bat manufacturers, say gunn and moore, that they over press there 606/808 models. Which means they are hard, and last a while(good for budget conscious batsmen) but the performance isn't quite there, and sometimes it can take a good season or so to open up,
Yet there top bats, original and original l.e are pressed for performance, and go very early in there life.
These bats if you want instant performance, you have to spend the doh.
But with small manufacturers like aldred, that roses to perfection, it's good to know the lower end will perform just as well as the higher end stuff.
Good luck in your ventures paul, I'm sure you'll do well.
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Good video Paul. A quick question, are you using the same finishing as the grade 1 on these butterfly stained bats? Only reason I ask is becasue I don't understand why polish the bat (with stains) to look whiter when it might look better with a darker finish? also considering the fact that some are now saying stains are beautiful, add character etc...why diminish the look of it then?
May be I am old school but I prefer the look of my bats better once I have had a chance to coat them in linseed oil etc, I wonder how good a butterfly stain would look if its shiny smooth finish without the whitening product....
Exactly the same polishing techniques and materials are used its just the natural colour of the willow nothing added apart from 2 light coats of oil during the making before they have the final sanding and finishing
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If you ever need an apprentice/trainee, give me a shout I'd love to get involved and learn the trade
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Wish I could cricket badger but minimum wage and all the crap that goes along with it prevents that for a small business like this. I just have to work steady longer hours really to make it pay. We don't and can't ask for premium prices like the big labels which makes it harder for the small hand made bat makers as they dominate the market by massive endorsements and mass manufacturing. We are trying to pick up what we can by providing quality products and service and try and support british manufacturing as well. Its a shame we can't get everything made over here softs clothes the lot at reasonable prices. Such is life but we will get there if more people can support this ideal.
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Paul,
Not sure if you ever came across them, but remember the boot made by the guy in Leicester, Paul Taylor used them a lot. I would love a pair of them now, if I could sink a few grand and buy that business I'd do it in a heart beat!
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Well done, Paul. This video is genius. Absolutely love it! :) I am going to link this to everyone who asks me the same question (and we get asked it a lot too!!)
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Wish I could cricket badger but minimum wage and all the crap that goes along with it prevents that for a small business like this. I just have to work steady longer hours really to make it pay. We don't and can't ask for premium prices like the big labels which makes it harder for the small hand made bat makers as they dominate the market by massive endorsements and mass manufacturing. We are trying to pick up what we can by providing quality products and service and try and support british manufacturing as well. Its a shame we can't get everything made over here softs clothes the lot at reasonable prices. Such is life but we will get there if more people can support this ideal.
There enters the expansion problem. Maybe an equity investor could solve that.....At some point.....
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Really admire the honesty, its a breathe of fresh air, and probably in my opinion a major factor as to why your bats have taken off so well and you have the great reputation.
Like you said you are telling people they don't need to buy the top end bats to get the best bats, so not really doing your sales any favours, but at the same time, your honesty will I'm sure, persuade people into buying your bats, and returning over and over again in the future.
Cant wait to get my hands on mine
I echo this sentiment completely. To see and hear such honesty is so refreshing, and I have to believe that this attitude (along with fantastic products), is a major reason Paul's bats are taking off in popularity; I have yet to read or hear a bad thing about any of them. For what it's worth, I intend to get my hands on one of these beauties in the near future. Customer service like this is priceless.
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Honesty and great service will always get you customers paul. A refreshing approach and a bit of banter works wonders. Its pieces like this on the forum that get people thinking and moving their 'allegiances'. The performance of the bats will then get you repeat custom. Great effort.
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Thanks for the video Paul, enjoyed watching it. In addition the profile and finishing on those 2 bats looks class!
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Very good video Paul. Also very true what you say about performance vs grade. I can only speak for what I have learned through Andrew Kember and that is that there are some amazing bats performance wise lower down the grade ladder. That is what we will always ask the customer is what level do you play and what do you want from your bat. Some want instant performance and amazing grains and know and are prepared to pay top price for it. Others want price as the main issue but either way we offer the best performance we can through pressing.
The other point that I know is true of your bats is that the finish is of the same quality on a G3 as a G1 and that is certainly not the same though the industry. Well done mate and really think Aldred will be a rising brand in the coming seasons.
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Paul just to echo some of the earlier comments, I tip my hat to you a great refreshing piece! Your certainly earning more fans by the day with your work!
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Paul,
Not sure if you ever came across them, but remember the boot made by the guy in Leicester, Paul Taylor used them a lot. I would love a pair of them now, if I could sink a few grand and buy that business I'd do it in a heart beat!
Can't remember those what were they like
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I'm a new forum member and I was interested in the topic of butterfly willow. Over the last few years I've had a few butterfly willow bats and all of them have always been belters. Normally pressed really well and really fly and given the price of willow at the moment a butterfly wins every time for me. As the 2014 season is a few months away would a long blade butterfly be something you would make?
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There enters the expansion problem. Maybe an equity investor could solve that.....At some point.....
If you find an investor, I'll be your trainee as you expand :)
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Great video Paul, honest and wise words.
As for an apprentice, they should be paying you!!! They would be buying your knowledge and techniques and will eventually start their own company in competition to you. Why be paying someone who will eventually be taking away your living. ;)
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Number 11 makes a good point.
I'd happily pay to spend a week, or a day a week for a month or so with you being taught the trade.
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Andrew Kember...there are some amazing bats performance wise lower down the grade ladder.
Andrew Kember definitely said in one of the cricket mags that good looking bats tended to perform better.
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The big brands must bleach butterfly stained willow, Paul?
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Steve msr has been selling these bats for 40 quid for years most people have been turning there nose up at them he has been honest from the start about butterfly willow.
Steve must be pleased with the revelations especially a his price hope he does not put them up
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Well what a response from yesterday's video I can't believe it a bit overwhelmed to be honest. While we are in that mode take a look at this I have just done while making a bat for a young girl needing a nice performing light bat
http://youtu.be/ZKElpwbzbSM (http://youtu.be/ZKElpwbzbSM)
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Andrew Kember definitely said in one of the cricket mags that good looking bats tended to perform better.
So would I if it meant more sales of a more expensive bat!
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So would I if it meant more sales of a more expensive bat!
There is some truth in that but there are differences in the performance and feel of what would be categorised as grade 1 or players. It wood it's naturally different to another piece. Let's put it this way I will be making a butterfly for my self for the coming season and it won't bother me using it.
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Well what a response from yesterday's video I can't believe it a bit overwhelmed to be honest. While we are in that mode take a look at this I have just done while making a bat for a young girl needing a nice performing light bat
[url]http://youtu.be/ZKElpwbzbSM[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/ZKElpwbzbSM[/url])
I have a feeling I may know this young girl????
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Another great insight into cricket bats!! One I'll take note of for sure!
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There is some truth in that but there are differences in the performance and feel of what would be categorised as grade 1 or players. It wood it's naturally different to another piece. Let's put it this way I will be making a butterfly for my self for the coming season and it won't bother me using it.
Appreciate the honesty and the effort towards enlightening everyone about the fact that lower grades can be belters. Is is possible to do a video explaining those fine differences between the grades though - whether its looks based or performance based. Because there has to be some reason why higher grade commands higher pricing.
I do believe that you have to pay higher to get a finer product. Again i have seen many friends buying top end Laver and Wood bats (no offense to LV guys) thinking that it will do wonders to their game but then at the end of the day its the batsmen first.
So if possible - please post a video stating those fine differences between various grades and reason why top grades demand higher price - just a request.
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Another excellent video Paul
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Excellent video paul ..cheers mate thnks :)
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Paul, do you do workshop visits for people to buy their bats?
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Yes with prior arrangement as I just work from home and do a lot of coaching as well.
Paul, do you do workshop visits for people to buy their bats?
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Do you have many grade 3s in at the minute?
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Do you have many grade 3s in at the minute?
Yes we have a few depends what weight your after. We have sold a lot of these recently. If you can email me with your requirements I will try and help you out. aldred173@btinternet.com
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Great vids Paul. Im about your vintage so have also been through enough fads re crockrt equipment and bats in particular to know and understand what youre saying.
No pro in the late 80's would have been seen dead with red wood on their blade.....
There was a time when I was a young lad that the pros wanted fewer grains that what is desired theres days.
However, in your first vid when youre knocking the bats with the ball you say something along the lines "not much difference in performance between g1 and lesser grade"
So not much difference, but some....
Ive had some lower grade as net bats back in the day, and occasionally some were real flyers and became the #1match bat, but atleast in my experience, whilst I dont dispute at all that lower grade bats can certainly perform, they dont quite feel as good as a pure g1 (assuming the g1 also performs and hasnt been mispressed into a dud) naturally feel is very subjective.
Not much difference, but some.
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Another good video Paul, dead weight is quite meaningless in some ways, it's just a nominal guide for a bat.
My new Amplus came in at 2lbs 9 and 7/8oz dead weight. It then gained moisture to 2lb 11oz and felt very toe heavy. Dried it out to 2 lbs 10 and 1/4oz in the airing cupboard and added a GM Ripplegrip (handle was a bit thin for me) and dead weight is now 2 lbs 12 and 3/8oz. Handle is a lot more comfortable ( pretty chunky) and pick-up is superb, better than when it came in at 2lbs 9oz.
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Anyone fancy a trip to Aldred next week?
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Really interesting video, thanks very much. I always assumed G1 bats were picked on appearance and performance not just good looks. Seems I may be wrong. Even more reason to go to a seller who hand picks their bats if you cant pick your own.
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Ok here's a bit as requested on performance and grading.mi have tried to keep it as short as possible as this really could be a many hour discussion so just tried to get the point over of how we do it and the skill of choosing and deciding which is right for which grade according to looks and most importantly performance.http://youtu.be/5gi4Y3EArMk (http://youtu.be/5gi4Y3EArMk)
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That is 15 minutes of video that will make everyone happy on this forum,nice to get the explanation of the grades and about how different bats feel but that not necessarily a bad thing, just the varying time for them to open up. You are liking being in front of the camera mr aldred!! 3 great educational videos for us all. Cheers
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Paul,
These really are fantastic videos mate. I've watched every second of each.
I was going to make the point before watching the last video that having watched the first video the only difference I noticed was the sound.(my hearing works fine it seems)
My question though comes with knocking in... A lot of questions have always been asked and said that butterfly/grade 3&2 take longer to "get going" is this the case and that grade 1/players perform better sooner. Also what is your personal view on knocking in? People claim to only do the edges and toe etc...where as myself I love to knock the whole blade in.
Having used different grades myself, the difference I once found was that a grade 2 bat felt "harder" when I hit the ball.
Thanks in advance
Reds
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Another great video, Paul, thanks! Interesting what you say about heartwood. As you may know, we have never been afraid to get bats with heartwood on our shelves, but I know not every other shop has the same view. I have seen bats from some brands with plenty of heartwood on be graded as the top/Players grade, while other manufacturers can grade a bat with similar looks - and a similar amount of heartwood - a grade 3. So, from where I sit, there is no hard and fast rule with heartwood. It's a grey area in the grading system. As it happens, we are fans of it, so will always sell heartwood bats no matter what their grade, but it will be interesting to see if more consistency in the grading is introduced over time.
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Like i say some pieces feel harder and some softer. Its a fine line with pressing too as you have to get the right amount, especially these days as some of the balls used now are truely awful cheap rubbish and are bat breaker. Hence its hard for bat companies in the fact that they need them to stand up to a certain amount of abuse but not to the expense of performance. But then you don't want bats breaking on a regular basis obviously.
Knocking in. Well I was lucky because when you play every day you used to knock your bats in with throw downs every morning. In fact I was dean jones' throw down boy. You heard of the water boy I was the orange juice and throw down boy. Throw downs with good used cricket balls are the best as you can minitor how hard you hit to start with and gradually build it up. But when you just play club cricket you can't talk too many people into throwing at you for 20 mins a day. So you have to compromise. Mallet then throw downs until it just feels right and not leaving too many marks on the blade. Then build the hitting up and you will feel the bat open up. Give it a go
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Another good video. I expect more bats are down graded when blemishes appear after sanding than upgraded when blemishes disappear.
Do you ever have problems with pressing a bat with blemishes as that area is harder?
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Not as such as I test the feel after every pass when they have their final press. You have to be careful particularly on their first pressing but that's down to the eye and learning the process
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Paul do you do your pressing on sight please could we see your press love looking at them mate.
I think your videos are a breath of fresh air mate great stuff.
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Like i say some pieces feel harder and some softer. Its a fine line with pressing too as you have to get the right amount, especially these days as some of the balls used now are truely awful cheap rubbish and are bat breaker. Hence its hard for bat companies in the fact that they need them to stand up to a certain amount of abuse but not to the expense of performance. But then you don't want bats breaking on a regular basis obviously.
Knocking in. Well I was lucky because when you play every day you used to knock your bats in with throw downs every morning. In fact I was dean jones' throw down boy. You heard of the water boy I was the orange juice and throw down boy. Throw downs with good used cricket balls are the best as you can minitor how hard you hit to start with and gradually build it up. But when you just play club cricket you can't talk too many people into throwing at you for 20 mins a day. So you have to compromise. Mallet then throw downs until it just feels right and not leaving too many marks on the blade. Then build the hitting up and you will feel the bat open up. Give it a go
How about bowling machine and increasing speed - inspection throughout. Would that work?
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Not a big fan of bowling machine balls on new bats. I always say to people about anything and its something I believe in life that their is no quick fix to anything if its worth doing its worth doing properly and well.
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Hi Paul, really enjoyed all the videos.
I'm interested to know, do you spend the same time producing a G3 bat as you do producing a G+1 bat?
Business logic would suggest that you would invest less time on a product that would give you a lower profit return.
Thanks
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Hi Paul, really enjoyed all the videos.
I'm interested to know, do you spend the same time producing a G3 bat as you do producing a G+1 bat?
Business logic would suggest that you would invest less time on a product that would give you a lower profit return.
Thanks
Actually in general for myself I can't speak for other bat makers but I find that a grade 3 often takes longer than a top grade for the simple reason that you have small knots and the grains can run in different directions making it more difficult and working the faults tend to be harder. Where as the top grades are more often than not nice clean straight grains and easier to work. So really the profit v time evens itself out in the end.
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Another excellent video Paul.
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I really enjoyed your videos!
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Hi Paul
Thanks for all the time you put in educating us, I am confident this will transpire in increased brand awareness and sales.
Cheers
Mark
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This thread is pure gold. I am fast becoming a big fan of Aldred bats and Paul and his honesty. I can safely say my next bat will be an Aldred. Maybe even 2, a players grade and a Butterfly. Don't know why but I am starting to love the look of the butterfly stained bats.
Great work for bringing them back in vogue Paul. I bet we will see a few popping up on the forum soon
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Thank you for the kind words everyone. I'm only trying to pass on the passion and enthusiasm I have always had for cricket in all its forms and also if I can what I have been very fortunate to learn over the years in a career of which although I didn't reach the dizzy heights feel very privileged to have had not only for the years of playing but for allowing me to make a career from it still as a bat maker and coach. Hope you keep annoying as much as I do doing it.
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im just repeating what everybody else is saying but ive really enjoyed the videos and especially being honest about everything.
i have added a butterfly bat to the top of my list when i come to replace mine
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Another great video, Paul, thanks! Interesting what you say about heartwood. As you may know, we have never been afraid to get bats with heartwood on our shelves, but I know not every other shop has the same view. I have seen bats from some brands with plenty of heartwood on be graded as the top/Players grade, while other manufacturers can grade a bat with similar looks - and a similar amount of heartwood - a grade 3. So, from where I sit, there is no hard and fast rule with heartwood. It's a grey area in the grading system. As it happens, we are fans of it, so will always sell heartwood bats no matter what their grade, but it will be interesting to see if more consistency in the grading is introduced over time.
Yes it's interesting isn't it. Personally I think it should be down to the feel of the bat and then the aesthetics of it come in as a secondary really. A nice half and half looking bat with great grains and feel is always nice to see.
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Im sure I saw Ross Taylor in the recent odi with a gm that appeared to be more than half red wood. Technically a grade 2 cleft, but clearly good enough for a test batsman (and a damn good one at that)
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So would I if it meant more sales of a more expensive bat!
Equally Paul might have a lot of lower grade willow to get rid of?
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Just watched this honest review from a great batmaker
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Great vidoes Paul, watched all of them. Good piece of advice for cricketers on a budget.
I kept hearing: Every piece of willow is pressed differently to get the best performance out of it, no matter what the grade is. What does it mean?
I have had experiences with a players grade bat and a Grade 2 bat and honestly could not tell the difference, both were fantastic.
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Just reiterating what everyone has said about this thread. Paul is doing a fantastic job both educating people and producing quality bats. I have a butterfly velocity 2.9 and it goes like a rocket. My previous bat was a Bradbury players and the Aldred is just as good if not better at a fraction of the cost. Well done Paul, keep up the good work.
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Equally Paul might have a lot of lower grade willow to get rid of?
Good point bats :) what do you reckon do I have a lot to get rid of or am I just telling you what's what in my workshop world. If you look in the background on the videos all those clefts stacked up are top end all the ones on the top shelf are butterfly.
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Great vidoes Paul, watched all of them. Good piece of advice for cricketers on a budget.
I kept hearing: Every piece of willow is pressed differently to get the best performance out of it, no matter what the grade is. What does it mean?
I have had experiences with a players grade bat and a Grade 2 bat and honestly could not tell the difference, both were fantastic.
When I say each piece is pressed differently it doesn't mean a different process, what I mean is if I was a huge company churning thousands of bats out I would need a multiple roller press and that would be set to a certain pressure and cleft after cleft would be put through that press at exactly the same pressure. Not every cleft needs pressing at the same pressure and the same amount of passes in my opinion as each pice is different. Some are naturally harder some are softer so each on I make is pressed according to that particular piece of willows individuality so I can try and get the best feel and performance I can out of it whether it be a players grade or butterfly grade. Does that make sense?
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Just reiterating what everyone has said about this thread. Paul is doing a fantastic job both educating people and producing quality bats. I have a butterfly velocity 2.9 and it goes like a rocket. My previous bat was a Bradbury players and the Aldred is just as good if not better at a fraction of the cost. Well done Paul, keep up the good work.
Seconded; great work again Paul!
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When I say each piece is pressed differently it doesn't mean a different process, what I mean is if I was a huge company churning thousands of bats out I would need a multiple roller press and that would be set to a certain pressure and cleft after cleft would be put through that press at exactly the same pressure. Not every cleft needs pressing at the same pressure and the same amount of passes in my opinion as each pice is different. Some are naturally harder some are softer so each on I make is pressed according to that particular piece of willows individuality so I can try and get the best feel and performance I can out of it whether it be a players grade or butterfly grade. Does that make sense?
This is a massive benefit of going for a smaller brand over one of the larger brands. Individual pressing is great for quality control in my opinion, and is a major reason why the smaller manufacturers' bats have greater consistency. Very unlikely to receive a "plank" from someone who has this attitude to pressing, whether it's hand-picked by a shop or not!
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How do the major manufacturers press their bats then ? I thought that even though they may be machined on a CNC machine they were still pressed individually by hand ?
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How do the major manufacturers press their bats then ? I thought that even though they may be machined on a CNC machine they were still pressed individually by hand ?
Kieron
As far as I know that each bat is pressed individually regardless it is made by smaller or bigger manufacturer, so i agree with u. In my view some press them better than others
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From what I understand the very big brands have automated pressure on their press so it does it automatically. Have a look on youtube I reckon the gunn and Moore video shows an automatic press.
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This is a massive benefit of going for a smaller brand over one of the larger brands. Individual pressing is great for quality control in my opinion, and is a major reason why the smaller manufacturers' bats have greater consistency. Very unlikely to receive a "plank" from someone who has this attitude to pressing, whether it's hand-picked by a shop or not!
Paul IJC at when you talk to I get the idea your just basically saying look I stock small brands why not buy from me ??? You need to get a bit more experience in cricket bats before commenting on something I suspect you know little about bar the bats you get from the smaller brands
This is not a slur it a obvervation.
What a marketing thread this is I massively disagree I know a medium sized company in England who Cnc and they press individually I even know a Indian company who do as well.
Sorry but marketing is fine but this has gone too far.
Can we see the Aldred press I asked a question and didn't get a answer
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Oh and I'm not slating anybody bats here the finish on the aldreads looks the best I have seen and the performance well people rate them no doubt
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From what I understand the very big brands have automated pressure on their press so it does it automatically. Have a look on youtube I reckon the gunn and Moore video shows an automatic press.
GM had two or three presses last time I was there. They also had a couple of chaps dedicated to pressing. They didn't look as though they were just firing the clefts through on some sort of stereotypical production line.
Not that I know much about the pressing process, just my observation.
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No I don't think they have but the one I've seen is automated. When I was looking for one I found one up Barnsley way which had multiple rollers on it they wanted about £8000 for it. Too rich for me that and too big for my little workshop
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Love this video have watched many many times
http://youtu.be/O94eGoJk4bE (http://youtu.be/O94eGoJk4bE)
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i love that video.
i might go and see if i have any willow tree growing in my field
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Can we see the Aldred press I asked a question and didn't get a answer
Sorry pro cricket didn't see this I can post some pics of it without a problem may have to take one tomorrow as not sure I have one to hand will have a look
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Here's one I have found that I edited for some pics we did
Just a basic screw press single roller
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t472/Aldredcricket/7a7538b090e124268cc76f81c20f07df_zps806dd9d3.jpg)
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Lovely very similar to the one in India I was shown.
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Love this video have watched many many times
[url]http://youtu.be/O94eGoJk4bE[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/O94eGoJk4bE[/url])
Fantastic
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I'm now waiting for Fred Dibnah to roll a fag and tell us all about it's 'Victorian Heritage'.
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I'll get my flat cap out afraid I've had my pint of Guinness
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Paul IJC at when you talk to I get the idea your just basically saying look I stock small brands why not buy from me ??? You need to get a bit more experience in cricket bats before commenting on something I suspect you know little about bar the bats you get from the smaller brands
This is not a slur it a obvervation.
What a marketing thread this is I massively disagree I know a medium sized company in England who Cnc and they press individually I even know a Indian company who do as well.
Sorry but marketing is fine but this has gone too far.
Can we see the Aldred press I asked a question and didn't get a answer
That's not what I was saying at all. You're stirring the pot yet again, Dave. Like you always do. I've had enough of it, to be honest.
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Paul IJC at when you talk to I get the idea your just basically saying look I stock small brands why not buy from me ??? You need to get a bit more experience in cricket bats before commenting on something I suspect you know little about bar the bats you get from the smaller brands
This is not a slur it a obvervation.
What a marketing thread this is I massively disagree I know a medium sized company in England who Cnc and they press individually I even know a Indian company who do as well.
Sorry but marketing is fine but this has gone too far.
Can we see the Aldred press I asked a question and didn't get a answer
Sorry Pro but I also have to disagree here, last time I checked Paul stocked bigger brands as well as the smaller brands? All he is doing is stressing that by going with a smaller brand you're more likely to get a better pressed bat as the brand will probably put a bit more care into the pressing. A perfectly reasonable comment based on the topic of this thread?
Whilst I'm on here, the Aldred bats look lovely and thanks for the videos Aldred Paul!
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Paul I suspect the 3 biggest presser of clefts in the uk is possibly tk he may be even bigger your telling me he presses one size fits all. You made a statement which I believe to be inaccurent big time.
As for the stirring the pot part fella please show me where I have done do please show me where I have rubbished something.
As I have stated before I think aldread finishes a bat second to none by the looks off it an by the reviews of people like Roco and other people he makes a mean bat.
Do we 100 per cent know that gm and gn and other big brands don't press there bats at the same price points higher up the scale individually do we ???
Sorry to have my say thought it was about sharing knowledge but the info has to be correct.
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Paul I suspect the 3 biggest presser of clefts in the uk is possibly tk he may be even bigger your telling me he presses one size fits all. You made a statement which I believe to be inaccurent big time.
As for the stirring the pot part fella please show me where I have done do please show me where I have rubbished something.
As I have stated before I think aldread finishes a bat second to none by the looks off it an by the reviews of people like Roco and other people he makes a mean bat.
Do we 100 per cent know that gm and gn and other big brands don't press there bats at the same price points higher up the scale individually do we ???
Sorry to have my say thought it was about sharing knowledge but the info has to be correct.
Pro I don't think at any time have I suggested that anyone has stirred the pot. I haven't stated that all the companies that make thousands of bats do mass press I stated that some do. Once again I find that whilst trying to put at much honesty on this forum as I can that one or two people start to misconstrue things that are said. I should have learnt my lesson once before on here and not shared my passion and love for what I am doing.
Well I have now I will just continue to quietly go about my business and just slowly work on and enjoy myself, because it does take the enjoyment away when things that are said mainly through questions asked get twisted away from where they started. I would never call other companies as I have more respect than that and know it can only back fire.
So if the people who really want to know anything in particular just email me please and we may see if we can get a blog going or something when the new website is up and running take care
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Pro I don't think at any time have I suggested that anyone has stirred the pot. I haven't stated that all the companies that make thousands of bats do mass press I stated that some do. Once again I find that whilst trying to put at much honesty on this forum as I can that one or two people start to misconstrue things that are said. I should have learnt my lesson once before on here and not shared my passion and love for what I am doing.
Well I have now I will just continue to quietly go about my business and just slowly work on and enjoy myself, because it does take the enjoyment away when things that are said mainly through questions asked get twisted away from where they started. I would never call other companies as I have more respect than that and know it can only back fire.
So if the people who really want to know anything in particular just email me please and we may see if we can get a blog going or something when the new website is up and running take care
I think his comments were directed at Paul @IJC ???
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This is a really interesting thread that has diversified somewhat. Having spoken to both Pauls I tend to think that they have identified their markets well and work within what is most effective for them. Neither can compete on economies of scale against bigger players, but they have found what works for them and have built brand loyalty around it.
As regards top end clefts, my take on it is that relative scarcity across a number of categories may be a factor in some clefts realising a higher rating. Most of these scarcity factors, in my opinion, will be aesthetic. For example, clefts with high numbers of very straight, even grains are scarce, likewise ultra light clefts which will make a bigger bat for the weight, and also very clean, white faces. Obviously some clefts may possess one of the aforementioned qualities, but very few will have all three, therefore the ones that do will generate a premium price.
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pressing is definitely different on a company by company basis. Im not sure how they do it or whether they have a set routine for each and every cleft but you do get differences. I have 2 batches of bats. One is pressed nicely and feels soft whereas the other feels a lot harder off the mallet. I havent used them against a ball so cant tell you which is best.
The presses i have seen have not being anything more than a wheel that is tightened by a human so unless there is a set process like 3 turns and 3 goes backwards and forwards then it would be impossible to do uniform pressing on all clefts...... maybe that is what they do and dont test by hand to see if a cleft needs more or less pressing.
I think this is what Aldred is getting at. Start off with 2 goes backwards and forwards, test. You then say ok this needs one more go. Then test. You then say this is perfect or this needs another go and so on. With the bigger companies they dont have time to do this so they just bash them all through 3 times no matter what. Im convinced with lower grade bats they definitely just press to a set routine and with the LE bats they do the press by press testing ........
or maybe im talking rubbish :)
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Also for the big brands who may or may not generic press every bat. I'm sure the care and individual presses goes to higher end willow, but do their £135 bats (equivalent to the butterfly bats in this thread) receive the individual care and attention? I wouldn't be in a position to know.
Unfortunately Pro, in your post against IJC you have managed to kill a thread I believe most the forum was enjoying. I certainly was. You said the marketing had gone too far, had it offended you to such an extent you sort to kill it for everyone? Remember if you don't like something you read online, you can click the little red cross in the top right ;)
Also: "Everyone you read on the internet is true" - Abraham Lincoln.
You say Paul is biased to the smaller brands because he stocks a lot of them. I would agree with this view if this was the 'Off the shelf bat forum'.
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Pro I don't think at any time have I suggested that anyone has stirred the pot. I haven't stated that all the companies that make thousands of bats do mass press I stated that some do. Once again I find that whilst trying to put at much honesty on this forum as I can that one or two people start to misconstrue things that are said. I should have learnt my lesson once before on here and not shared my passion and love for what I am doing.
Well I have now I will just continue to quietly go about my business and just slowly work on and enjoy myself, because it does take the enjoyment away when things that are said mainly through questions asked get twisted away from where they started. I would never call other companies as I have more respect than that and know it can only back fire.
So if the people who really want to know anything in particular just email me please and we may see if we can get a blog going or something when the new website is up and running take care
Hi Paul
Actually both Paul's, the forum would be poorer without your input. I look toward to reading more from you both!
Cheers
Mark
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I think his comments were directed at Paul @IJC ???
If that's the case I apologise and I myself have misconstrued. :)
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Aldred, when you are pressing how do you know when to stop.......... sound/response/hardness of the wood
im interested as i have bats which feel too soft and some which feel too hard
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That's the learning bit you stuff a lot up when you start by getting a bit giddy and rushing but eventually I have hopefully learnt and got it consistent. I feel the wood watch it as it presses and feel a ball and mallet on it gradually. It feel and sound really. You start to read it really.
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That's the learning bit you stuff a lot up when you start by getting a bit giddy and rushing but eventually I have hopefully learnt and got it consistent. I feel the wood watch it as it presses and feel a ball and mallet on it gradually. It feel and sound really. You start to read it really.
Hi Paul
Any chance of seeing you do that on video?
Cheers
Mark
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Nothing has been aimed at anybody a comment was made how big company's do not put as much effort in and I stated it simply is not true.
I wouldn't ever dream of insulting your bats as I have stated.
So where all supposed to just listen and agree with everything where told when sometimes there simple not true forum sponsor or not as a forum member and one with some knowledge through experience I think my pint is valid as anybody's. Sorry if I offended people with my comments but I stand by what I said
I do not. Want to derale what is by and large a great post and videos as I have praised Paul and his bat making on loads of topics and will continue to do so because they look bloody good
If people took my words in the wrong way sorry.
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That's the learning bit you stuff a lot up when you start by getting a bit giddy and rushing but eventually I have hopefully learnt and got it consistent. I feel the wood watch it as it presses and feel a ball and mallet on it gradually. It feel and sound really. You start to read it really.
i suppose thats where bat making becomes an art, you just know when the wood feels right and what separates the excellent bat makers from the good. I think im going to get a bat from you just to see what they are like as I have always liked what i have seen from you on this forum.
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I think my pint is valid as anybody's.
Calm down everyone - we've all had a drink! :D
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Nothing has been aimed at anybody a comment was made how big company's do not put as much effort in and I stated it simply is not true.
I wouldn't ever dream of insulting your bats as I have stated.
So where all supposed to just listen and agree with everything where told when sometimes there simple not true forum sponsor or not as a forum member and one with some knowledge through experience I think my pint is valid as anybody's. Sorry if I offended people with my comments but I stand by what I said
I do not. Want to derale what is by and large a great post and videos as I have praised Paul and his bat making on loads of topics and will continue to do so because they look bloody good
If people took my words in the wrong way sorry.
i know where you are coming from Procricket, i have upset a few people on here by giving what some see as being inflammatory views/posts when it is merely a post which goes against what others think based on your own knowledge that something isnt quite correct.
Its always good to have both views/facts on a subject whether it is for or against a company/forum sponsor.
back on topic ................
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Nothing has been aimed at anybody a comment was made how big company's do not put as much effort in and I stated it simply is not true.
I wouldn't ever dream of insulting your bats as I have stated.
So where all supposed to just listen and agree with everything where told when sometimes there simple not true forum sponsor or not as a forum member and one with some knowledge through experience I think my pint is valid as anybody's. Sorry if I offended people with my comments but I stand by what I said
I do not. Want to derale what is by and large a great post and videos as I have praised Paul and his bat making on loads of topics and will continue to do so because they look bloody good
If people took my words in the wrong way sorry.
Can I ask which big companies you are referring to Dave?
P.S This is far and away the best thread the forum has seen in over 12 months!!!
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P.S This is far and away the best thread the forum has seen in over 12 months!!!
I agree with that, it's been a really good read, especially since I've been stuck inside most of today because of the 40 odd degree heat in Melbourne!
I think I had the impression that GM had a standard pressing for all their bats, (I think I got that impression from a video where Swann was touring GM) which would explain the consistent feel of their bats. I'm not too sure now, which I guess is what's great about threads like these, people can put forward their opinions, and people agree and disagree. I think the key is not to take it too personally, and to accept that we can be wrong at times.
Really enjoyed the videos, Paul, a simple answer to a question why bats feel different, even when pressed by the same maker, and why bats which don't look as good can play as well as top end bats. I remember the Supreme I got off you, had a lovely feel and I got the impression it was pressed to get the best out of it. Great to see honesty being the forefront of how you do things, even if it may mean less sales in such a competitive market. I'm wanting to purchase a butterfly bat now! :-[
Fair point, Dave, we shouldn't make assumptions based on the fact that they are a bigger company - most folk wouldn't slate a sponsor here based on assumptions. To be fair though, I thought that GM were all pressed exactly the same, so maybe Paul and I have watched the same video and come to the same conclusions. I accept I could have gotten to the wrong conclusions based on those videos though, as they weren't too in depth.
If you're looking for a good bat, you should look past the brand, whether they are a mass producing brand like GM or Kook, or a small batmaker like Aldred. If you find a maker you like and have confidence in them, then go for them. Make up your own mind and don't let other people make decisions for you.
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Agreed this thread gives people a great insight into bat making and the age old looks better plays better thioughts. Also gives great insights to people who might not have access or ever seen clefts and so on. Number 4 read the thread I will not be drawn on anymore mate
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Agreed this thread gives people a great insight into bat making and the age old looks better plays better thioughts. Also gives great insights to people who might not have access or ever seen clefts and so on. Number 4 read the thread I will not be drawn on anymore mate
I wasn't trying to draw you into anything to be honest I was just giving you the opportunity to share your knowledge on how the big companies press their bats.
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Anyway back on topic....
Paul how long does it take you to press a cleft?
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It's always interesting talking cricket. I learnt through all the years playing cricket that it's really important to listen to advise and how other people do things and what works for them and what they have learnt through experience and then filter the stuff out that works for you as an individual and not totally discard the rest but keep it in the locker as it may come in useful sometime in the future. I have taken and do take exactly the same approach with my bat making process.
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Paul (Aldred) going by your last video and having just recieved 2 bats from Paul (IJC), lol, I was wondering what your thoughts are on the response of bats. Got M&H which has a very dull thud to it, my prefered response/sound, and a Bubble legend which sounds very crisp, something that makes me feel a bit meh, as I think that crisp sounding bats usually don't go as well but is it just that they need more time to open up? Only 2 bats that I have ever seen that felt very hard but were guns from the go were L&W legacy and Vindico Marauder (Small US company that does not exist anymore i think). Both these bats sounded horrible when you hit the ball and you'd think ball hasn't even made it back to the bowler but when you up its flying off the field.
Both my new arrivals respond equally well but somehow I enjoy the M&H better in my hand than Bubble!!!
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Im sure those of us that visited the GM factory a few years back from my recollection they had 2 different style presses.
We have the luxury of having GM reps on the forum so im sure if they see the question posed they are the best people to answer. Great topic having been lucky enough to see a few presses in action over the years at the different UK batmakers its something that is definitely done by touch/feel by experience and IMO is the most important part in getting the most of out of a cleft/bat during the manufacturing process.
Pressing is a bit like goldilocks and the 3 bears, too much and you'll ruin it by prssing it too hard, too little and it wont perform as it'll be too soft but just right and jobs a good un!
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GM must have an F2 F4 and F7 pressing machine??
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GM must have an F2 F4 and F7 pressing machine??
They will have replaceable rollers I assume.
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GM must have an F2 F4 and F7 pressing machine??
We went a couple of years back now prior to introducing these face shapes so as Matt says i suspect they have rollers that provide the different cambers. I think the Luna was their newest shape when we went so may of been 2011 ???
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I wasn't trying to draw you into anything to be honest I was just giving you the opportunity to share your knowledge on how the big companies press their bats.
Well 3 of the 5 biggest presser of willow in the uk for sure press individual or group clefts based o ln many factors including density an so on. I know 2 Indian makers one small one big once again try individual press.
I know he is not a brand but arguably the best bat presser in the world who works for more brands than anybody knows individually presses clefts.
It a great topic I guess the biggest problem is the intellectual rights about the different methods of pressing often I wish I had a press
Pressing is the black magic of bat I guess and the most guarded secret and fair play with the handle I guess there the biggest variables in a bat
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I think it would be good to have a pressing video Mr Aldred, it would be the icing on the cake for me. I believe it is the pressing which makes the biggest contribution to a bats performance rather the visual appearance or weight of cleft. Hence the need to customise the pressing to the individual characteristics of the cleft, in order to obtain optimal response.
However, i also understand the reluctance of various batmakers to share such knowledge, as it can be a source of competitve advantage for them.
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I have enjoyed this thread immensely however I don't think its fair to ask Paul Aldred or for that matter any other batmaker to share their personal secrets as for want of a better word alchemists of batmaking on an open forum. If any alchemist were to give away the secrets of his trade surely he would lose his competitive edge.
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Good point bats :) what do you reckon do I have a lot to get rid of or am I just telling you what's what in my workshop world. If you look in the background on the videos all those clefts stacked up are top end all the ones on the top shelf are butterfly.
I wasn't suggesting you were being dishonest, Paul. (My response was to a point made about Andrew Kember.)
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I know bats we will have to get some more in the way we are going
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Loving this thread, more vids please, especially pressing a butterfly :D
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Steady number 11 I don't want to give everything away.
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Sorry Pro but I also have to disagree here, last time I checked Paul stocked bigger brands as well as the smaller brands? All he is doing is stressing that by going with a smaller brand you're more likely to get a better pressed bat as the brand will probably put a bit more care into the pressing. A perfectly reasonable comment based on the topic of this thread?
Whilst I'm on here, the Aldred bats look lovely and thanks for the videos Aldred Paul!
I have to disagree that by going to a small brand you're more likely to get a better pressed bat. Putting care into something doesn't make it great, knowing how to do it and having the correct tools does. You're more likely to get a better pressed bat if you go to a brand that press well regardless of company size, stature or players they sponsor.
Paul here looks like he's spent a lot of time working on his process, and thanks for sharing all the information you have. It's a great thread. And credit for taking the time to learn the craft from start to finish, it's great to see so much passion involved.
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I know bats we will have to get some more in the way we are going
Perhaps even one for me?
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Steady number 11 I don't want to give everything away.
Oh well, worth a try ;)
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When I say each piece is pressed differently it doesn't mean a different process, what I mean is if I was a huge company churning thousands of bats out I would need a multiple roller press and that would be set to a certain pressure and cleft after cleft would be put through that press at exactly the same pressure. Not every cleft needs pressing at the same pressure and the same amount of passes in my opinion as each pice is different. Some are naturally harder some are softer so each on I make is pressed according to that particular piece of willows individuality so I can try and get the best feel and performance I can out of it whether it be a players grade or butterfly grade. Does that make sense?
Thanks for the clarification,. It seems you are treating each bat equally no matter what price they will get sell at, that is admirable.
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Paul I suspect the 3 biggest presser of clefts in the uk is possibly tk he may be even bigger your telling me he presses one size fits all. You made a statement which I believe to be inaccurent big time.
As for the stirring the pot part fella please show me where I have done do please show me where I have rubbished something.
As I have stated before I think aldread finishes a bat second to none by the looks off it an by the reviews of people like Roco and other people he makes a mean bat.
Do we 100 per cent know that gm and gn and other big brands don't press there bats at the same price points higher up the scale individually do we ???
Sorry to have my say thought it was about sharing knowledge but the info has to be correct.
I've needed a few days to cool down from you previous comment, Dave, before I could even bring myself to reply...
You stirred the pot with the hand-picking of cricket bats, when you said how you don't believe hand-picking is worthwhile and how it's over-rated in your opinion. I ended up writing a dissertation of a response and nobody seemed to agree with you, so then you dropped that one, but now you are doing the same about pressing and, surprise, surprise, nobody agrees with you again. You just seem to go against the grain all the time to provoke, and although you claim you are just asking questions, you can get quite personal sometimes and people will take it the wrong way. You clearly have an issue with me and think I lack knowledge about cricket bats, so I take it personally...
As others have said, we stock small and large brands, and I am simply giving my opinion. I am not doing it to push our sales of smaller brands, but like Paul (Aldred), I respect honesty and am a very honest person. My honest view is that the smaller brands generally press their bats better, and having knocked in over 500 bats myself in the past couple of years, I have a pretty good idea on the differences between each brand. I believe that the smaller brands generally spend more time and effort pressing each individual bat across their range than the larger ones.
And, regarding Aldred, that was a silly comment too. Although this thread has ended up being great marketing for them, Paul didn't post this thread just for marketing - he was answering questions that people on here wanted to know, and was praised for doing it in such a classy and honest way, so people comment, and lo and behold it ends up being good marketing - perhaps better marketing than anyone could have expected, not least Paul. I hope you can see my point.
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I've needed a few days to cool down from you previous comment, Dave, before I could even bring myself to reply...
You stirred the pot with the hand-picking of cricket bats, when you said how you don't believe hand-picking is worthwhile and how it's over-rated in your opinion. I ended up writing a dissertation of a response and nobody seemed to agree with you, so then you dropped that one, but now you are doing the same about pressing and, surprise, surprise, nobody agrees with you again. You just seem to go against the grain all the time to provoke, and although you claim you are just asking questions, you can get quite personal sometimes and people will take it the wrong way. You clearly have an issue with me and think I lack knowledge about cricket bats, so I take it personally...
As others have said, we stock small and large brands, and I am simply giving my opinion. I am not doing it to push our sales of smaller brands, but like Paul (Aldred), I respect honesty and am a very honest person. My honest view is that the smaller brands generally press their bats better, and having knocked in over 500 bats myself in the past couple of years, I have a pretty good idea on the differences between each brand. I believe that the smaller brands generally spend more time and effort pressing each individual bat across their range than the larger ones.
And, regarding Aldred, that was a silly comment too. Although this thread has ended up being great marketing for them, Paul didn't post this thread just for marketing - he was answering questions that people on here wanted to know, and was praised for doing it in such a classy and honest way, so people comment, and lo and behold it ends up being good marketing - perhaps better marketing than anyone could have expected, not least Paul. I hope you can see my point.
You honestly though nobody agreed. If i say what i want to about your comment it would land me in trouble i will not rise. I love Tom comment on here who know a thing or two....
PS i was not on about marketing about Mr Aldreds bats either i was on about your words of marketing...
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Do we think that we could stop all this bickering please on my thread. If you want to continually argue stick it on your own thread I have to be honest that I don't pay to be a sponsor on here to keep reading people having a go at each other it really does annoy me. If you don't pack it in I will have to put you over my knee and give you a damned good spanking. Take that last bit back I may end up in the dock with Dave lee Travis. >:(
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Yes sorry mate I'm going to get a look at one of your bats on Sunday very much looking forward to it. You never know i might put my money where my mouth is if there as good as i think there going to be i just wish JB had a lighter one mate.
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Why what weight do you use. JB?
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I got one of the velocity g3 clefts off you Paul, made up to 2.12! Dave prefers around the 2.9 mark I think. He will still be able to appreciate the quality and finishing!!
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Paul, is everything made to order or do you have pre-mades 'lying about'?
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Well JB your Aldred is a lovely shaped and finished bat and very good pick up mate. Agree i have seen worst grade 1 then the quality of that bat very nice mate..
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Well JB your Aldred is a lovely shaped and finished bat and very good pick up mate. Agree i have seen worst grade 1 then the quality of that bat very nice mate..
Yeah it's a beautiful bat, its pressed nicely aswell!
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I did not use too heavy for me but can not argue about the quality of it for sure lovely bat at a lovely price
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Glad it is all good for you hope you sap all the runs out of it.
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Do we think that we could stop all this bickering please on my thread. If you want to continually argue stick it on your own thread I have to be honest that I don't pay to be a sponsor on here to keep reading people having a go at each other it really does annoy me. If you don't pack it in I will have to put you over my knee and give you a damned good spanking. Take that last bit back I may end up in the dock with Dave lee Travis. >:(
Where be that like button? :D