Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Buzz on May 01, 2014, 11:47:06 AM
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Why do we care so much about the grading on a bat?
Just a question - when you buy a bat, you are the one with the money - you can choose whether or not to buy the bat.
The manufactures job is to sell bats at different price points where they feel the bat provides value for money based on intangibles - looks, performance and pickup - all of which are different for every player.
Yet on here members get terribly worked up about it!! Like the Aldred butterfly thread - when Paul introduced two levels of butterfly willow - he is the manufacturer - yet members jumped all over it.
Beauty remains in the eye of the beholder - when you part with your money you usually know what you are buying and unless you are just buying for the stickers then does it matter?
We see on here that an ungainly looking butterfly bat can outperform a 14 ruler straight grain white willow beauty... And a bat being used by Michael Clarke or Ian Bell will (depressingly) score more runs that the same bat being used by me.
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I think there is a search going on for a bat that doesnt exist, the holy grail of bats. Foward defensive. . . . . . .Woosh. . .Six!!!
Maybe if we put the same time and effort into playing in and using the bat, we may just be pleasantly suprised.
T
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I personally care about grading because I fear makers/retailers are 99.9% of the time, just looking to make the most they can. If that means making a ugly bat a grade 1/2 and saying it's based on 'performance', or saying 'ah, but there are not guidelines so we can do what we want', then to me they are just saying 'pay up or shut up'.
While people then turn around saying 'ah, so just go somewhere else then, market forces blah blah'... does that really work?? no.. You know as well as I do that all that happens is people just keep raising the prices and boom.. suddenly we the consumer are paying more and more and there is nothing you can do about it.
That's why I get annoyed when I see bats that don't seem value for money BUT it is a personal opinion and I suspect most people don't care and merely care about telling people 'I payed £300 for this, it must be better than yours'.
Each to their own, but this is what retailers thrive off as these are the customers to target and cash in.
(not saying it's any one retailers fault, just the way our western economies are now. All about the profit and not about actually providing genuine competition. we all want to earn 100k a year for doing feck all and that's what business leaders are aiming for.. max profit for as little work as possible.)
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No, the Holy Grail does exist - oddly though, only when I'm bowling!
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Any form of consistency as what I am going to get for my money comes from the hope the grading is accurate, a lot of business is moving online, you can't judge rebound or pick up online so only hope you have is atleast my bat is going to look like an G1/G2/G3 as thats what I paid for. So when you get these horrendous looking G1, Players or whatever else you want to call them it does annoy. People like me have only got Grading to go on and nothing else, so yes it matters significantly.
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To me, grading is just a way of determining the price of the bat.
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To me, grading is just a way of determining the price of the bat.
so you'd happily pay £300 quid for a G1 bat for it to turn up with 'marks' all over it? Pull the other one. As for performance, we've been told before that you can't grade on it so that side is just marketing.
Grading is what is used to determine the price of a bat and that's why people don't like it when things are sold as G1 when it's G2, or G2 when it's G3.. That's just someone trying to make a fast buck by ripping off the consumer. Once you've paid for it, the fact there are no 'rules' means you can't exactly send it back as the retailer will probably give you the legal speal about it. again, not saying that some won't happily exchange etc.. just that really, it shouldn't be an issue if people graded to a set of rules and people didn't try and con each other.
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To me, grading is just a way of determining the price of the bat.
I think this comment sums it up nicely.
My opinion is that grading to me is more important when buying a bat blind, you cant check the pick up or performance so have to base your decision on looks alone. Over the last few years I've been less hung up on looks, as long as its pressed well I'm happy.
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Grading is important because it is used by the majority to identify comparable bats.
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Grading is important because it is used by the majority to identify comparable bats.
Wouldn't price do that just as effectively?
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Not really, people tie grade to performance. Grade vs Price is seen as the value of the bat.
When you purchase a bike, you look at the spec - what material is the frame made from? What brakes does it have? What weight is it? The price is largely ignored, with the spec driving the perceived value of the thing. You compare specs, and find what you think is a well priced product.
With a cricket bat, there isn't much to go on. Grading is about the only spec going, it's important for internet sales - but it's a shame we haven't found anything better. Perhaps this is why people focus on edge size, or spine height. It's another way of perceiving how it will perform.
_____________________________
I made a post similar to this a few months back:
"I don't think unique, organic products such as cricket bats are particularly suited to the traditional way of ecommerce sales. It leads to posts like this, where uneducated buyers attempt to perceive the value of a product - when actually, that just isn't really possible.
Cricket bats are unique. No two are the same. It's impossible to compare these things on paper, really. And it's a shame we haven't in 2014 found a better way to do these things than attempting to categorise these unique pieces of wood into 4 very ill-defined categories. Which really don't actually mean anything. It leads to baffling things, such as 'G2 Bleached Willow' or G1+++ Super pro.
If you want to compare the true value of a cricket bat, pick them up, smash them with a mallet, swing them around your local store, whatever you need to do to identify that bat is right for you. But attempting to compare a non-scientific product, with simple price metrics just isn't possible."
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Because the bat in my thread is classed as grade 1+
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Because the bat in my thread is classed as grade 1+
Oh dear
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Because the bat in my thread is classed as grade 1+
Name and shame
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Grading, as per Wrights, is a cosmetic measure.
As such we can gain a number of assumptions.
1) We want the best looking bat to a) show off b) feel good
2) We want to pay the highest price our ego will allow
3) The makers need something by which to uniformly pin a pricing structure to.
4) We can 'feel like a pro' when laying out £500 for the snake oil of all bats.
5) Those who don't know about the cosmetic context of grading can be sold a pup, albeit a pretty one.
I'm sure there are more.
Basically, I couldn't give a rats about grading. I care more about who made it, how it go's, and how much it cost me.
Buying a bat on grade alone is an exercise in vanity.
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Buying a bat on grade alone is an exercise in vanity.
Or for 90% of the Cricket playing public the only way they know to judge a bat so are ripped off because of limited knowledge.
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Isn't grading more for the batmaker to promote his/her bats? i.e. GN charging £500 for player grade! :o
Personally I don't care about the grade, I like to find a quality bat maker and try his /her bats and buy at a cost I'm happy to pay. If it's G3 (on looks), but goes like a train, i'll take it :)
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Grading to me is just a tool is differentiate between good looking and ugly bats. It provides no assistance for picking a bat that performs for the owner (each to their own and what not). As a student with a bat buying habit, I have never considered buying a grade 1 bat at full RRP as lower grades offer the same 'potential' performance at a much better value for money.
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How can anyone say a bat goes like a train or has amazing ping before its knocked in for a decent period of time and USED IN SEVERAL MATCHES/NETS ... absolutely baffles me. Its easy to say a bat is dead I know that but very few are dead from a reputable bat maker.
People bang the middle a few times with a mallet.... this is PINGTASTIC etc etc .... 3 months later after using it and realising its not right weight wise or handle wise ....... its up for sale.
Mental this place is at times.
I have had 1 bad bat in 20 years (had about 10 in this time) and most were not top of the line, I do however knock my bats in for months and give a bat at least half a season before commenting on its performance.
I'll take a bat with knots as long as it isnt around the middle of the playing area and has say 8 grains or more (upto say 15)
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Not really, people tie grade to performance. Grade vs Price is seen as the value of the bat. Gradins
When you purchase a bike, you look at the spec - what material is the frame made from? What brakes does it have? What weight is it? The price is largely ignored, with the spec driving the perceived value of the thing. You compare specs, and find what you think is a well priced product.
With a cricket bat, there isn't much to go on. Grading is about the only spec going, it's important for internet sales - but it's a shame we haven't found anything better. Perhaps this is why people focus on edge size, or spine height. It's another way of perceiving how it will perform.
_____________________________
I made a post similar to this a few months back:
"I don't think unique, organic products such as cricket bats are particularly suited to the traditional way of ecommerce sales. It leads to posts like this, where uneducated buyers attempt to perceive the value of a product - when actually, that just isn't really possible.
Cricket bats are unique. No two are the same. It's impossible to compare these things on paper, really. And it's a shame we haven't in 2014 found a better way to do these things than attempting to categorise these unique pieces of wood into 4 very ill-defined categories. Which really don't actually mean anything. It leads to baffling things, such as 'G2 Bleached Willow' or G1+++ Super pro.
If you want to compare the true value of a cricket bat, pick them up, smash them with a mallet, swing them around your local store, whatever you need to do to identify that bat is right for you. But attempting to compare a non-scientific product, with simple price metrics just isn't possible."
Top post.
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How can anyone say a bat goes like a train or has amazing ping before its knocked in for a decent period of time and USED IN SEVERAL MATCHES/NETS ... absolutely baffles me. Its easy to say a bat is dead I know that but very few are dead from a reputable bat maker.
People bang the middle a few times with a mallet.... this is PINGTASTIC etc etc .... 3 months later after using it and realising its not right weight wise or handle wise ....... its up for sale.
Mental this place is at times.
I have had 1 bad bat in 20 years (had about 10 in this time) and most were not top of the line, I do however knock my bats in for months and give a bat at least half a season before commenting on its performance.
I'll take a bat with knots as long as it isnt around the middle of the playing area and has say 8 grains or more (upto say 15)
I agree with you. I bought a bat last season, knocked it in for a couple of hours (pre prepared), still goes and pings nicely after a season. Found out it picked up heavy, but I put on another grip and it picks up as light as my harrow.
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Although i agree with what's been posted already, i personally do not like using ugly bats my preference is a white willow straight grain bat that will pickup nice and perform well.
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It's a difficult one to market a bat from an e-commerce point of view. When I previously tried did it I tried to make it as simple and straight forward for the customer which had a good response, as I was grading my bats solely on the looks of the willow(determined by the amount of (even)grains on the blade) - which in theory should give the best indication on how the bat performs.
As previously stated, every bat has the potential to perform after knocking/playing in etc... I was confident that the bats were pressed to a very good standard and I stated many times via marketing channels that the 'better the grade' should give 'better performance', especially in the early stages of usage.
I've always been a vindicator of having some official laws being made up for the quality of bats, especially with the RRP prices continuing to increase.
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Because the bat in my thread is classed as grade 1+
That deserves to be named and shamed - I'd send it back if I were you
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If buying online it could potentially install confidence that you're getting a better bat.
In store it should make a difference, pick a few bats up, which one feels the best.
The only thing I could consider would be the time and care put into the making of the bat.
If you had 1 hour to make 2 cricket bats. One will sell for £300 one for £180. Do you devote 30 mins to each bat? Or does the £300 bat get more attention?
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If buying online it could potentially install confidence that you're getting a better bat.
In store it should make a difference, pick a few bats up, which one feels the best.
The only thing I could consider would be the time and care put into the making of the bat.
If you had 1 hour to make 2 cricket bats. One will sell for £300 one for £180. Do you devote 30 mins to each bat? Or does the £300 bat get more attention?
Every bat we make has the same time and care put into it bar a bespoke which takes time to design.
On the topic because people want the best or perceived best most will not give it time to be the best either.
I tend to use a bat till it breaks and find lower grades do last longer but found people talk about pressing a bat as key but what people forget is the natural stiffness of the blade before pressing. Stiffness is what people want for performance and it is not gradeable by any looks.
In the past 12 months i have had some of the biggest players in the games pass through my hands not all work big not all where 20 grain wonders most had a tiny blemish on but all pinged the ball and felt so stiff in the blade with no give not like a trampoline but like a conductive metal rod.
I know looks have as much to do with a bat as fish with breasts it a wife tale like the straight grains going threw the toe.
But if you like that kind of thing go for it and why not you pay your money for what you want.
Bats are a simple subject people complicate it
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Because the bat in my thread is classed as grade 1+
You cannot be serious...
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Correct me if I am wrong as up until I discovered this forum a few months back I was an ignorant fool who bought bats online or asked people to get some with zero knowledge what I'd be getting.
From what I have read on the forum so far.
1. Knots in a bat cause an increase in weight.
2. Heartwood would also increase the weight and based on some posts also prone to breaking on part where there is heartwood.
3. High number straight grains (usually associated with Grade 1) means the bat would open up much quicker.
Considering all this if you get a grade 1 bat without a blemish and good 12 straight grains has potential to be lighter (or have more wood in the middle) and open up quicker compared to a grade 3 or a butterfly with the same dimensions/volume.
Don't kill me if I got all that wrong.
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How soon a a bat opens up also depends on how hard it has been pressed.
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I was talking with one of the lads I coach about this yesterday. He has been going through Spartans like nobody's business (he is on his fourth since the middle of last season), and from looking at some of them, I would question the grading. I would assume that manufacturers use the same gradings for junior and senior bats, but I have never seen a grade 1 seniors bat which has an enormous knot in the edge which was about 1.5cm across! Others that he has gone through have also, in my humble opinion, been somewhat questionable as to whether they should have been grade 1.
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How soon a a bat opens up also depends on how hard it has been pressed.
True. I never said grains are the only thing that count when it comes to bat's peak performance.
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I personally care about grading because I fear makers/retailers are 99.9% of the time, just looking to make the most they can. If that means making a ugly bat a grade 1/2 and saying it's based on 'performance', or saying 'ah, but there are not guidelines so we can do what we want', then to me they are just saying 'pay up or shut up'.
While people then turn around saying 'ah, so just go somewhere else then, market forces blah blah'... does that really work?? no.. You know as well as I do that all that happens is people just keep raising the prices and boom.. suddenly we the consumer are paying more and more and there is nothing you can do about it.
That's why I get annoyed when I see bats that don't seem value for money BUT it is a personal opinion and I suspect most people don't care and merely care about telling people 'I payed £300 for this, it must be better than yours'.
Each to their own, but this is what retailers thrive off as these are the customers to target and cash in.
(not saying it's any one retailers fault, just the way our western economies are now. All about the profit and not about actually providing genuine competition. we all want to earn 100k a year for doing feck all and that's what business leaders are aiming for.. max profit for as little work as possible.)
Are we in the 0.1% bracket for doing this video? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgFFeR2HnQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgFFeR2HnQ)
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Are we in the 0.1% bracket for doing this video? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgFFeR2HnQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgFFeR2HnQ)
well played Paul.
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Just to throw it out there - how about the 'rarity' of the so called 'better' tight grained willow? I personally don't know much about growing willow - however I would assume that tighter grained willow is harder to get do to it growing slower?
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Generally to have tight grains either:
1. The tree needs to be older or;
2. The area of the tree from which the cleft came is narrower, i.e. higher up the trunk.
Given the sheer volume of willow demand now due to the massive increase in bat making on the sub continent and the demand over the last 10 years for more grains, there are likely to be far fewer older trees with tight grains, meaning it is harder to get your hands on.
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I personally care about grading because I fear makers/retailers are 99.9% of the time, just looking to make the most they can. If that means making a ugly bat a grade 1/2 and saying it's based on 'performance', or saying 'ah, but there are not guidelines so we can do what we want', then to me they are just saying 'pay up or shut up'.
While people then turn around saying 'ah, so just go somewhere else then, market forces blah blah'... does that really work?? no.. You know as well as I do that all that happens is people just keep raising the prices and boom.. suddenly we the consumer are paying more and more and there is nothing you can do about it.
That's why I get annoyed when I see bats that don't seem value for money BUT it is a personal opinion and I suspect most people don't care and merely care about telling people 'I payed £300 for this, it must be better than yours'.
Each to their own, but this is what retailers thrive off as these are the customers to target and cash in.
(not saying it's any one retailers fault, just the way our western economies are now. All about the profit and not about actually providing genuine competition. we all want to earn 100k a year for doing feck all and that's what business leaders are aiming for.. max profit for as little work as possible.)
The management of retailers and bat makers have to, by means of their constitution, have to maximise the return on investment to the shareholders.
As such, the price we pay is through choice.
If nobody paid £500 for a bat then the price would fall until people started buying.
They have found an equilibrium and are maximising their returns accordingly.
I don't blame them for doing so, it's normal and acceptable.
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Just to throw it out there - how about the 'rarity' of the so called 'better' tight grained willow? I personally don't know much about growing willow - however I would assume that tighter grained willow is harder to get do to it growing slower?
I'm learning a thing or two about willow at the moment the reason tight grains are better initially is more grains in a bat produce a stiffer blade. Stiffer blade is naturally the best kind of bat plain and simple.
I'm learning my stuff of Streaky who is known and trusted by Jeremy Ruggles a man i would one day love to meet and share a beer talking about willow.
Too many people go off a sound rather than feel and actual rebound and there a big difference between Stiff which is not hard either.
Why do people ask for a softly pressed bat when reality is a Stiff crust for a bat is the real performance measure not taking into personal ID up into account like profile and pick up.
Ref laminates the glue has no performance enhancement apart from stiffing the joint and if in balance with a stiff vineer and a decent soft under belly will produce marginal performing if any.
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The softly pressed bats i have owned the fibres open up sooner.
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The softly pressed bats i have owned the fibres open up sooner.
This statement is full of a bunch of oddities.
When you knock a bat in, you effectively press it further to create a "stiff crust", as Dave says. Therefore a softly pressed bat takes longer to make this happen. A softly pressed bat also really doesn't work very well. Believe me, Buzz and I received an interesting bat with almost zero pressing. It didn't work. We took it to Gray Nics to press it. They were shocked at how unpressed it was. It really had no performance and the bashing made huge dents in the face.
When you knock a bat in, you compress the face. The effect of the tiny cracks down the grain is caused by compression in some areas effectively pulling the wood surface apart. Apparently it indicates a bat that will perform well. I guess it's almost like a minor level of delamination. I can't say that it is something I've ever seen in a bat that I've knocked in or has had use for a long time and I don't really believe that it is really that important....
Finally, how do you know a bat is softly pressed? Has the batmaker told you they usually apply 50psi to a bat and you've requested 40psi? Of do they normally apply a range based on the cleft and you simply have an appropriately pressed cleft that happened to require less pressure? We see a lot of statements about softly pressed blades and I'm afraid I'm a bit of a cynic relating to them.
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This statement is full of a bunch of oddities.
When you knock a bat in, you effectively press it further to create a "stiff crust", as Dave says. Therefore a softly pressed bat takes longer to make this happen. A softly pressed bat also really doesn't work very well. Believe me, Buzz and I received an interesting bat with almost zero pressing. It didn't work. We took it to Gray Nics to press it. They were shocked at how unpressed it was. It really had no performance and the bashing made huge dents in the face.
When you knock a bat in, you compress the face. The effect of the tiny cracks down the grain is caused by compression in some areas effectively pulling the wood surface apart. Apparently it indicates a bat that will perform well. I guess it's almost like a minor level of delamination. I can't say that it is something I've ever seen in a bat that I've knocked in or has had use for a long time and I don't really believe that it is really that important....
Finally, how do you know a bat is softly pressed? Has the batmaker told you they usually apply 50psi to a bat and you've requested 40psi? Of do they normally apply a range based on the cleft and you simply have an appropriately pressed cleft that happened to require less pressure? We see a lot of statements about softly pressed blades and I'm afraid I'm a bit of a cynic relating to them.
Great post Tim. I've asked many times how can you tell if a bat is softly pressed and no one has ever answered.
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Great post Tim. I've asked many times how can you tell if a bat is softly pressed and no one has ever answered.
Rob i can tell you there no such thing as soft press it would be lighter pressed but then you have to take into account the cleft at Raw state and the natural "stiffness" of the cleft first.
I'm beginning to sort of sound coherent.
Then it a new question and who group presses and who singular presses.
Willow is willow no two pieces are the same and if they where would they play equally...
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Rob i can tell you there no such thing as soft press it would be lighter pressed but then you have to take into account the cleft at Raw state and the natural "stiffness" of the cleft first.
I'm beginning to sort of sound coherent.
Then it a new question and who group presses and who singular presses.
Willow is willow no two pieces are the same and if they where would they play equally...
Yet we seem to have members and shop owners say they prefer a "softly pressed bat" on here regular. I would like to know how people can tell between a lightly/softer pressed bat to a standard or harder pressed bat.
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Yet we seem to have members and shop owners say they prefer a "softly pressed bat" on here regular. I would like to know how people can tell between a lightly/softer pressed bat to a standard or harder pressed bat.
They go off sound i think most of the time. But sound and feel are totally two things yet people associate them as the same.
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Regarding the pressing discussion I think its possible to get bats that are harder pressed than others and it is possible to tell the difference when knocking it in. For e.g. my M&H is softer pressed than Kook bubble which is softer than the GM Epic I have.
How can I tell, well when I hit it with a mallet softer one indent a lot easily than harder. I find harder pressed ones require less knocking, contrary to popular belief, but do need some playing in. What confuses people, in my opinion, is that harder pressed ones give off more vibrations so the ball travels like it would off a newish bat but it feels worse in the hands. L&W Legend I had was a great example of this, ball travelled off the face incredibly but the vibrations I felt in my hands made me feel the bat was knocked in etc. Don't know if it is to with the handle but thinking about the thread where UZI bat didn't feel as good till the handle was "knocked" etc.
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Regarding the pressing discussion I think its possible to get bats that are harder pressed than others and it is possible to tell the difference when knocking it in. For e.g. my M&H is softer pressed than Kook bubble which is softer than the GM Epic I have.
How can I tell, well when I hit it with a mallet softer one indent a lot easily than harder. I find harder pressed ones require less knocking, contrary to popular belief, but do need some playing in. What confuses people, in my opinion, is that harder pressed ones give off more vibrations so the ball travels like it would off a newish bat but it feels worse in the hands. L&W Legend I had was a great example of this, ball travelled off the face incredibly but the vibrations I felt in my hands made me feel the bat was knocked in etc. Don't know if it is to with the handle but thinking about the thread where UZI bat didn't feel as good till the handle was "knocked" etc.
All i know is i have had around 6 top players bats in my hands and all of them felt stiff and the sound was mental and the rebound was crazy.
The trampoline theory is rubbish because there is inward motion yet if it is taught the crust it would be outward instead of inward then outward.
It is like middle's people think there where the main mass is which is very wrong from the truth.
But i will leave it all for my master to talk about i'm getting my head around the science which is going on but loving every minute and before my knowlidge was theory based but now I'm seeing the practicalities of the science in motion.
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Can you explain further about the trampoline theory being rubbish, I don't quite understand your theory?
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They go off sound i think most of the time. But sound and feel are totally two things yet people associate them as the same.
Just to back this up, I remember reading a study about soft and hard golf balls. The idea that soft golf balls give more feel. The study required golfers to play with a range of balls with ear defenders on so they couldn't hear anything. They then had to identify if the ball was hard or soft based purely on feel. It turned out that there was no difference and the golfers didn't get enough right for it not to be chance. Therefore feedback, or feel of the ball was purely made on the sound at contact.
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Are we in the 0.1% bracket for doing this video? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgFFeR2HnQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgFFeR2HnQ)
Always appreciate your honest opinion Paul.
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As most of us are aware softer or if you like lighter pressed bats have a different sound, also ball seams marks are a clue to how hard the blade is. Not wanting to be contradictory based on experience of having brought and used many custom bat retail etc bats over many seasons softer/ lighter pressed bats IMO do open up sooner.
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I personally care about grading because I fear makers/retailers are 99.9% of the time, just looking to make the most they can. If that means making a ugly bat a grade 1/2 and saying it's based on 'performance', or saying 'ah, but there are not guidelines so we can do what we want', then to me they are just saying 'pay up or shut up'.
While people then turn around saying 'ah, so just go somewhere else then, market forces blah blah'... does that really work?? no.. You know as well as I do that all that happens is people just keep raising the prices and boom.. suddenly we the consumer are paying more and more and there is nothing you can do about it.
That's why I get annoyed when I see bats that don't seem value for money BUT it is a personal opinion and I suspect most people don't care and merely care about telling people 'I payed £300 for this, it must be better than yours'.
Each to their own, but this is what retailers thrive off as these are the customers to target and cash in.
(not saying it's any one retailers fault, just the way our western economies are now. All about the profit and not about actually providing genuine competition. we all want to earn 100k a year for doing feck all and that's what business leaders are aiming for.. max profit for as little work as possible.)
Ok just came across this thread from a while ago. Pro is right you need to grade the willow to keep things in some sort of perspective of pricing. You wouldnt buy a paste diamond ring at the same price as a top end diamond. It is true that unfortunately people in industry are in the main trying to make maximum profit for doing stuff all. This comes down to share holders etc so they need to to be able to feed all the hungry mouths looking for return in their company. These people investing give these companies state of the art industrial units and factories churning out products at a rapid rate. I noticed jaguar on the news the other day opening a new factory with the ability to turn an engine out every 40 seconds or something, just incredible.
In the bat business I am relatively new to it and have no investors. The only financial investor is me and I have invested more time than money can buy to learn the process, and am still learning. In an ideal world everyone would buy there bats from their local bat maker and not opting for labels because the professionals are using them as a hell of a lot of those aren't even the label that are on them and secondly there are not many professionals who actually get bats made for them anymore, and all the imports that come over from India and Pakistan and often not legitimately as many are basically smuggled in and no taxes paid on them.
Now the cost of willow increases every year unfortunately. Most of this I imagine is down to wage increases etc. now here's something to think about, I may be wrong but if you had a good quality local bat maker of which most areas would have had one at one time and the majority of local people went to him to make your bat by hand to your specs that would guarantee him steady income every year, therefore he would be in a position to be able to drop his prices, that's presuming that he isn't greedy and is happy making a good steady living and not after world domination with his product (I'd certainly be happy with that for sure). This would open up the market to more bespoke companies and help keep more of our english willow in this country.
People are nieave in this day and age I'm afraid. It's like the golf industry you see hundreds of golfers walking round with the most expensive kit that you could possibly buy yet they are still hacking it around struggling to play to 20 handicap, my grandad was Derbyshire champion and he had an old set of bladed clubs and a pencil bag to carry them in and played off scratch, they don't realise that it's what's holding onto the club that makes the real impact. It's the same with a cricket bat. You have to work hard to get good there is no instant fix, there is no bat that will suddenly make you into kumar sangakkara or Matthew Hayden the only way to get better is practice, Yes certain bats give you a confidence when you know it's a performer for sure. I only ever had one bat I didn't get on with and that was a duncan fearnley 405, it was a plank and I was gutted as i worshipped fearnley bats but didn't realise at the time he wasn't making them anymore. Now when I was playing professionally I started with gray nicholls and then Was with chase when robin smith started that up. Players just got sent bats from their sponsor in the weight range they wanted and got on with it, very very rarely did they ditch them because they were the wrong shape or the swell was in the wrong place. They were playing on fast county and international tracks with a shape of bat that today people would say we're suitable for low bounce tracks. The fact is they were bloody good players and got on with it. A bad workman always blames his tools.
I would advise anyone to talk to their bat maker and if they understand the game and what your like as a player they will have some idea of producing a bat that would be as good as any professionals bat if they can press properly and are fitting quality handles.
I am an idealist and someone who is probably not realistic. I personally as bat maker would love to have constant regular work enabling me to take less profit on each item but keeping me going every day of the week consistently. For me it's a lifestyle, I'm not a executive business minded person. I know what I want and I am stubborn and will bite my nose off to spite my face in many ways, I've always done it I wouldn't play cricket for money when I came out the professional game because I didn't agree with it, I couldn't take money from my team mates. I could have made a fortune when I needed it and yet still when I play the odd game I get abused because people don't believe I'm not playing for money. That sums it up to me it's the way of the world now that people think everything has to be done because of money. Hence I'm an idealist not a millionaire I want to do this because I love it, I want to help give people advise not only on bats but cricket when they come to see me because I have been fortunate to have played for a living
So to finish this little piece trust your small bat makers here in the UK they work hard, be loyal you will get looked after. Work hard at your game there is no quick fix getting rid of a bat because your not scoring runs with it, it isn't the reason behind the slump look closer to home as an individual. Changing your bat won't change the errors in your technique and judgement only practice can do that. The more you support UK products the better the chance that the prices will get better. Not with everyone obviously as not everyone will be doing this for the same reasons but theirs more chance.
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Great post Mr A.
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Top post Mr Aldred
And your bats stand testament to the work you put in
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Thanks chaps only just saw that post last night when I had a look though when I got in. It's just something that interests me is how technology and image has taken over our traditional skills. I was talking to a customer yesterday who has a tailor business in London and he was saying the same thing that small workshops and craftsmen fascinate him. He pays for his own apprenticeships as if they get government funded ones they have to go to college and college is run by people being paid a lot of money who can't do the job and the course basically is about getting the boxes ticked and the kids out the door and the funding money in. You have to learn a trade over the space of 4 or five years and then keep developing and learning. It takes them longer to train the bad habits out of them than it does to train them the good ones. It's also a mindset of wanting to produce quality regardless. He spoke about an old guy who used to make trousers for him. He was about 85 and had his own workshop in a shed in his back garden and used ancient machinery, all in top condition but old. He said if anyone had seen the set up they would have walked away as it wouldn't have looked like he could do the job but that workshop was set up perfectly for the way he had worked his entire life and you wouldn't have got a better product made anywhere else. It amazes me that fashions technology and image has over the years taken presidency over craft knowledge skill and quality. In my mind it's down to money and greed. Greed is an evil thing, money is good if your happy with your life, craving for more creates issues in the world. I do have a feeling that people are now starting to revert back to liking traditional skills and crafts and are wanting a high quality product for a fair price, I am certain about it. It's just down to small companies like myself to keep clinging on by our fingernails until that time comes.
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You should read Owen Jones' book, The Establishment, Mr Aldred.
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Really bats? What's that telling us then
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Thanks chaps only just saw that post last night when I had a look though when I got in. It's just something that interests me is how technology and image has taken over our traditional skills. I was talking to a customer yesterday who has a tailor business in London and he was saying the same thing that small workshops and craftsmen fascinate him.
"He pays for his own apprenticeships as if they get government funded ones they have to go to college and college is run by people being paid a lot of money who can't do the job and the course basically is about getting the boxes ticked and the kids out the door and the funding money in." - CORRECT!
You have to learn a trade over the space of 4 or five years and then keep developing and learning. It takes them longer to train the bad habits out of them than it does to train them the good ones. It's also a mindset of wanting to produce quality regardless. He spoke about an old guy who used to make trousers for him. He was about 85 and had his own workshop in a shed in his back garden and used ancient machinery, all in top condition but old. He said if anyone had seen the set up they would have walked away as it wouldn't have looked like he could do the job but that workshop was set up perfectly for the way he had worked his entire life and you wouldn't have got a better product made anywhere else.
"It amazes me that fashions technology and image has over the years taken presidency over craft knowledge skill and quality. In my mind it's down to money and greed. Greed is an evil thing, money is good if your happy with your life, craving for more creates issues in the world. I do have a feeling that people are now starting to revert back to liking traditional skills and crafts and are wanting a high quality product for a fair price, I am certain about it. It's just down to small companies like myself to keep clinging on by our fingernails until that time comes." - A MAN AFTER MY OWN HEART!
Brilliant stuff here. The man speaks truth!
The whole world, as I see it, is influenced by the 'Apple Generation'. People who are willing to rely on machinery for everything because it makes life 'simple'. The simplest example of this is the spell-checker included with MS Word. I blame this as one of the single most damaging tools to a child's literacy.
Yes, machines are a great tool - and used as part of any process, can enrich the lives of the masses, but technology can also be blamed for a partial breakdown in societal values.
Anyone who has seen a Master Craftsman at work, working with any raw material, should appreciate the reason why these people SHOULD be paid a lot more than they do.
This is a serious philosophical question... one which I would like to see take place between Steve Jobs, Stephen Hawking and the Pope...
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It amazes me that fashions technology and image has over the years taken presidency over craft knowledge skill and quality. In my mind it's down to money and greed. Greed is an evil thing, money is good if your happy with your life, craving for more creates issues in the world. I do have a feeling that people are now starting to revert back to liking traditional skills and crafts and are wanting a high quality product for a fair price, I am certain about it. It's just down to small companies like myself to keep clinging on by our fingernails until that time comes.
For the average punter, yes but majority still value tradition and I believe the trend is shifting back. Old is Cool again [or will be].
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This is a serious philosophical question... one which I would like to see take place between Steve Jobs, Stephen Hawking and the Pope...
Steve Jobs is dead, is he being represented via a medium?
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I said I'd like to see it. I don't think the pope would be seen dead in a room with Stephen Hawking who is probably the most world renouned theoretical physicist...
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Brilliant stuff here. The man speaks truth!
The whole world, as I see it, is influenced by the 'Apple Generation'. People who are willing to rely on machinery for everything because it makes life 'simple'. The simplest example of this is the spell-checker included with MS Word. I blame this as one of the single most damaging tools to a child's literacy.
Yes, machines are a great tool - and used as part of any process, can enrich the lives of the masses, but technology can also be blamed for a partial breakdown in societal values.
Anyone who has seen a Master Craftsman at work, working with any raw material, should appreciate the reason why these people SHOULD be paid a lot more than they do.
This is a serious philosophical question... one which I would like to see take place between Steve Jobs, Stephen Hawking and the Pope...
Yes it is fascinating watching a craftsman work. I can watch someone create something for hours and learn new skills and ideas by watching them work. It only enhances what you do in your own trade as something seems to rub off be it something you would do or something that you personally wouldn't do. What appears the simplest task on appears simple because they have spent 100s of hours mastering it and then Mastering it some more. Watch a top plasterer they are incredible the precision of work and it looks effortless when in fact it's hard work and they can judge the plaster drying time by eye, not a moisture meter by eyes and touch, it's a great great skill. Likewise any traditional trade has its own touches that cannot be replicated by technology.
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With regard to college courses being run by people who cannot do the job speaking as someone who has taught for many years in colleges I spent 20 years after first completing a 5 year apprenticeship in Engineering both working and teaching before i became a course tutor I also worked with and know many craftsman teaching trade skills in F.E.
I do agree though students have to successfully complete courses to get funding.
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With regard to college courses being run by people who cannot do the job speaking as someone who has taught for many years in colleges I spent 20 years after first completing a 5 year apprenticeship in Engineering both working and teaching before i became a course tutor I also worked with and know many craftsman teaching trade skills in F.E.
I do agree though students have to successfully complete courses to get funding.
Yes I agree that that quote does draw a lot of seasoned craftsmen and tutors into it but over the last 10 years or so those apprenticeships have gone as a general rule. 5 year apprenticeships have been condensed into a far shorter period and this is truly an insult to people of your experience and skill in the trade. I spent a lifetime playing and coaching cricket but that stands for nothing now when box ticking to get funds is the ultimate goal. I apologise to all like yourself that that quote hits you as it shouldn't and I was aware it would but in all trades now the quality of new education is diminished by the process of shortcut ting everything.
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Yes I agree that that quote does draw a lot of seasoned craftsmen and tutors into it but over the last 10 years or so those apprenticeships have gone as a general rule. 5 year apprenticeships have been condensed into a far shorter period and this is truly an insult to people of your experience and skill in the trade. I spent a lifetime playing and coaching cricket but that stands for nothing now when box ticking to get funds is the ultimate goal. I apologise to all like yourself that that quote hits you as it shouldn't and I was aware it would but in all trades now the quality of new education is diminished by the process of shortcut ting everything.
No need to apologise Paul as what you have stated with regard to box ticking and some apprenticeships is in my experience correct.
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Going back to the original point I think a lot of grading has to be a combination of cosmetic, weight and scarcity, with cosmetic being most noticeable initially.
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True trypewriter like I say there has to be a grading system for the wide variety of willow that trees produce.
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Really bats? What's that telling us then
Like you, Paul, Owen Jones identifies greed as an evil thing. And the reason for the decline in proper apprenticeships etc.
Like many sports folk, I guess you would tell me that you're not really into politics? But, from your posts, you clearly are!
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JS Wrights and large retail manufacturers dictate the perception of grades but they have no meaning, not in terms of guaranteed performance. Grading on grains and blemishes has been prominent for so long because the other ways of grading have even less meaning or supporting evidence. Edge size? That was another way we tried to grade our bats that failed to really convey performance efficiently.
The fact is that the best way to get performance is to trust a skilful, talented craftsman. Just like we do with other trades and professions. Grading on performance is a way to challenge the perception that only the pretty perform and showcases that a good bat maker has knowledge and expertise built up over years. This is part of my gripe with the industry, brands and bat makers pop up and think they know what they're doing. I've been making bats for 15 years and it's a craft that takes decades to master. They just dilute and undermine the skills real craftsman have earnt.
There's not such thing as soft or light pressing, just GOOD and BAD pressing. A soft pressed would take ages to perform (I had an UNpressed cricket bat, it was like hitting wet ground) and so would a hard pressed bat. Pressing creates a hard surface on a soft material, the natural properties of willow does not include stiffness. If anything it's flexibility and spring that have allowed it to be used in many other crafts and so perfectly adapted to cricket bats. The apparent stiffness in a cleft is in part due to drying but that's true of any timber when moisture is removed (to a certain degree) and Willow doesn't compare favourably to other timbers when it comes to stiffness. So if that was the main factor that created performance, we would have stopped using Willow years ago and started using other species.
Procricket - You mentioned that "tight grains are better initially is more grains in a bat produce a stiffer blade" yet state "stiffness is what people want for performance and it is not gradeable by any looks" Surely the grains would indicate stiffness and therefore be a way of identifying this quality via looks?
"The trampoline theory is rubbish" Please can you explain this a bit more?
Sound and feel and intertwined and are in no way separate, as we perceive feel through our senses. The most significant way in which we do this is through our ears, eyes and hands. Since we can't look at the bat face when we hit the ball, the two we rely on when using a cricket bat are the sound and touch we experience. Sadly when we choose a bat, our eyes can deceive our brain. Optical Illusions?
I'm not going to moan about longevity of bats, performance and size expectations, the drying of Willow, impatience and apprenticeships. I'm sure you'll all appreciate that.
The bottom line I'm trying to convey here is that grading is subjective and can mislead you. Trust a real bat maker, support the craft of bat making and build a relationship with a craftsman. If you do, they're far more likely to give you that "pro performance cleft" ;)
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Totally agree and very well written:)
JS Wrights and large retail manufacturers dictate the perception of grades but they have no meaning, not in terms of guaranteed performance. Grading on grains and blemishes has been prominent for so long because the other ways of grading have even less meaning or supporting evidence. Edge size? That was another way we tried to grade our bats that failed to really convey performance efficiently.
The fact is that the best way to get performance is to trust a skilful, talented craftsman. Just like we do with other trades and professions. Grading on performance is a way to challenge the perception that only the pretty perform and showcases that a good bat maker has knowledge and expertise built up over years. This is part of my gripe with the industry, brands and bat makers pop up and think they know what they're doing. I've been making bats for 15 years and it's a craft that takes decades to master. They just dilute and undermine the skills real craftsman have earnt.
There's not such thing as soft or light pressing, just GOOD and BAD pressing. A soft pressed would take ages to perform (I had an UNpressed cricket bat, it was like hitting wet ground) and so would a hard pressed bat. Pressing creates a hard surface on a soft material, the natural properties of willow does not include stiffness. If anything it's flexibility and spring that have allowed it to be used in many other crafts and so perfectly adapted to cricket bats. The apparent stiffness in a cleft is in part due to drying but that's true of any timber when moisture is removed (to a certain degree) and Willow doesn't compare favourably to other timbers when it comes to stiffness. So if that was the main factor that created performance, we would have stopped using Willow years ago and started using other species.
Procricket - You mentioned that "tight grains are better initially is more grains in a bat produce a stiffer blade" yet state "stiffness is what people want for performance and it is not gradeable by any looks" Surely the grains would indicate stiffness and therefore be a way of identifying this quality via looks?
"The trampoline theory is rubbish" Please can you explain this a bit more?
Sound and feel and intertwined and are in no way separate, as we perceive feel through our senses. The most significant way in which we do this is through our ears, eyes and hands. Since we can't look at the bat face when we hit the ball, the two we rely on when using a cricket bat are the sound and touch we experience. Sadly when we choose a bat, our eyes can deceive our brain. Optical Illusions?
I'm not going to moan about longevity of bats, performance and size expectations, the drying of Willow, impatience and apprenticeships. I'm sure you'll all appreciate that.
The bottom line I'm trying to convey here is that grading is subjective and can mislead you. Trust a real bat maker, support the craft of bat making and build a relationship with a craftsman. If you do, they're far more likely to give you that "pro performance cleft" ;)
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JS Wrights and large retail manufacturers dictate the perception of grades but they have no meaning, not in terms of guaranteed performance. Grading on grains and blemishes has been prominent for so long because the other ways of grading have even less meaning or supporting evidence. Edge size? That was another way we tried to grade our bats that failed to really convey performance efficiently.
The fact is that the best way to get performance is to trust a skilful, talented craftsman. Just like we do with other trades and professions. Grading on performance is a way to challenge the perception that only the pretty perform and showcases that a good bat maker has knowledge and expertise built up over years. This is part of my gripe with the industry, brands and bat makers pop up and think they know what they're doing. I've been making bats for 15 years and it's a craft that takes decades to master. They just dilute and undermine the skills real craftsman have earnt.
There's not such thing as soft or light pressing, just GOOD and BAD pressing. A soft pressed would take ages to perform (I had an UNpressed cricket bat, it was like hitting wet ground) and so would a hard pressed bat. Pressing creates a hard surface on a soft material, the natural properties of willow does not include stiffness. If anything it's flexibility and spring that have allowed it to be used in many other crafts and so perfectly adapted to cricket bats. The apparent stiffness in a cleft is in part due to drying but that's true of any timber when moisture is removed (to a certain degree) and Willow doesn't compare favourably to other timbers when it comes to stiffness. So if that was the main factor that created performance, we would have stopped using Willow years ago and started using other species.
Procricket - You mentioned that "tight grains are better initially is more grains in a bat produce a stiffer blade" yet state "stiffness is what people want for performance and it is not gradeable by any looks" Surely the grains would indicate stiffness and therefore be a way of identifying this quality via looks?
"The trampoline theory is rubbish" Please can you explain this a bit more?
Sound and feel and intertwined and are in no way separate, as we perceive feel through our senses. The most significant way in which we do this is through our ears, eyes and hands. Since we can't look at the bat face when we hit the ball, the two we rely on when using a cricket bat are the sound and touch we experience. Sadly when we choose a bat, our eyes can deceive our brain. Optical Illusions?
I'm not going to moan about longevity of bats, performance and size expectations, the drying of Willow, impatience and apprenticeships. I'm sure you'll all appreciate that.
The bottom line I'm trying to convey here is that grading is subjective and can mislead you. Trust a real bat maker, support the craft of bat making and build a relationship with a craftsman. If you do, they're far more likely to give you that "pro performance cleft" ;)
I sure can mate as Streaky has always told me even grains allow for more consistence stiffness who said loads of grains looks nice i never did. and as for trampoline well for a trampoline to work i want engergy going out of the bat not into then out. It is my crust theory mate.hard but not too deep. I could be wrong but i still seem to score runs with the bats i use which i guess is half the battle :D
You see unlike many on this forum i have used bats for long periods i buy or should i say used to buy so many but i only ever really use one because i feel if it is PROPERLY pressed not soft not hard but allows for the maximum stiffness it gives you the best chance of getting the bat performing earlier.
As for trampoline rubbish and all that stuff if you use a bat for me for long periods you realise 90 per cent of all bats no matter what they look like if pressed PROPERLY have the same performance roughly after a period of time.
Now market will dictate you that certain things are better they all will i do not or have ever believed one bat is better than the other by looks or grains there niceties not nessecesaties.
It like all this nonsense about hand picking always has been and will be just a selling tool yet i have behind closed door been called names because i know its another marketing tool.
Bats take time to play in simple as that they still do and many get rid of bats before they are ripe. I knock mine in for ages with mallets and then old balls then new balls it what i do because i find if you give bats a chance 9 times out of 10 there decent.
But i'm no maker I'm no craftsman i just use the bats i'm given mate and that is my opinion and perception.
BATS ARE SIMPLE PEOPLE MAKE THEM COMPLICATED.
a bit like the game of cricket it is simple people complicate it.
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I have to agree with Procricket in that if you use a bat for a long period most turn out to be of similar performance. You will get one or two that stand out and one or two that are not so good. Also handpicking for performance is rubbish, doing it for looks is fine but performance I don't see how it can be done unless the batmakers let you have a net with it. Doubt they will even let you bash it 10 times with mallet.
The reason people buy grade 1 is that it is believed that you have a higher percentage of getting decent per forming bat than lesser grades.
I know nothing about willow or grains but I would go with the theory that grade 1 do on average play better than other grades once fully knocked in and used.
Would I pay full price .... NEVER .... Buy in the end of season sale, who cares if the stickers change the next season! There is less temptation to use it in the wet end of season and you can take time to knock it in properly over the end of the season/off season then bring it out in the winter nets in the new year.
And I don't care if my bat is shaped by some bloke in his garage or some indian bloke using his feet
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a bit like the game of cricket it is simple people complicate it.
I wish I found it simple, Dave. Nice post otherwise. ;)
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I think anyone trying to grade bats on performance, rather than looks, would be nuts. Who would want to but a 'plank grade' bat? You'd never sell them. Obviously 20 tight grain clefts are rare, light in weight clefts are rare, super clean blemish free clefts are rare, and when anything is a scarce commodity it attracts a premium price. My take on it is that clefts are pre-graded before they get to the maker, so in some respects the maker's hands are tied on what grade a finished bat might be if they are working to a profit level. However, pre-grading at cleft level isn't an exact science. As we all know L&W bats appear to put on weight once they reach the UK, so there is no reason that raw clefts, even expertly dried, can't do the same thing.
As regards tapping up a cleft, then a finished bat, I'm obviously no expert but to me it's still in the lap of the gods if it will perform on the pitch. As Paul Aldred said, he had a DF that just wouldn't go. If you look back on this forum, these bats are a lot scarcer than bats that even perform adequately (which if you take a non-cynical view are themselves hugely outnumbered by the 'absolute guns' that forum members own).
And then there's the factor of the guy holding the bat - as Garrett wisely says.
I'll fess up, I've got a lovely Salix Pod that I just can't get on with. Yes it's light at 2-7 but I can't get the ball off the square with it. But I've loaned it to guys who usually use bats in the 2-12 range and they've hammered the ball to all parts with it. There's nothing wrong with the bat, it's me. These are younger, fitter, more talented guys, and it shows.
On the plus side I've used slightly heavier bats (2-9/2-10) and can score a few runs, proving, really, that a heavier bat will hit a ball further and to an extent timing and bat speed has b/a to do with it.
I'm as guilty as anyone on here for having an eye for a well shaped piece of willow, and buying more than I need. But, you see, I'm old, I'm raging against the dying of the light, I'm searching for a bat that will allow me to hit the ball as far and as hard as I did 25 years ago. I'm obviously deluded, but perhaps no more so than someone who thinks that a professional grade bat will make them play like a professional.
And just because test player A has a preference for x number of grains with a strip of heartwood on the outside edge, it doesn't mean that these are the ideals for any bat. In most professional sports there is a huge amount of superstition - if you factor that into the equation you might be getting towards a more realistic view on why some players prefer the bats that they do.
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Also handpicking for performance is rubbish, doing it for looks is fine but performance I don't see how it can be done unless the batmakers let you have a net with it. Doubt they will even let you bash it 10 times with mallet.
Are you talking about the consumer or a bat maker?
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We care so much because that's where we have been led to
Years ago, we didn't care what grade bat it was
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Years ago we didn't care so much. We bought Super, Ultimate and other funny names from Slazenger or 4* and 5* bats from Gray Nics. We didn't see players, LE, etc. The top of the line was simply 5*.
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I think years ago the top end bats were obviously better than the lower end ones. Cheaper bats were pressed/ built for durablity in club use.
I wish manufacturers still used the 'star' system (with five being the highest).
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Buying a bat was far less complicated when the star system was widely used.
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Are you talking about the consumer or a bat maker?
Handpicking directly from the factory by shop owners .... Both the batmaker and shop owner Wouldn't sell many bats with big mallet dents all over the face
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I liked the county way of the 3,5 and 8 star model ... The 8 being very rare pieces of perfect looking willow which you hardly ever saw in club cricket
Remember my brothers county reflex which wasn't even a 3 star, joint second best bat I have ever used alongside a county insignia 5 star .... Both bought from the local sports shop by my dad who has never played cricket in his life. People still ask me if I have those bats to give away. The secret behind them was 6 months of serious knocking in by an 11 and 15 year old who had no internet, no sky, no iPod, no mobile, no stupid American tv programs to watch and nothing better to do than enjoy the sound of leather on willow.
Too much bullshit going on these days in the selling of bats but thinking about it I think 99% of club cricketers keep it very simple where as a select few like to know more and select the very best and get caught up in irrelevant details. A little bit of knowledge in the wrong hands is very dangerous.
Best to be totally oblivious to it all and just buy a bat and be done with it. If it isn't scoring any runs, it's the batsmans fault not the bat. I had this problem with a bat I was personally given by shiv chanderpaul, couldn't get the ball off the square but it obviously wasn't a rubbish bat, it was me.
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Buying a bat was far less complicated when the star system was widely used.
There was less bullshit in the world, generally.
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All the reminiscing. There was less bs? Not so sure about that. There was certainly less available information so you couldn't choose to become a total willow nerd in the same way and there wasn't the ability for large groups of nerds to collectively form a community anywhere near as easily, but I call pants on less bs...
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How about banning the wording of grade this or grade that? On bats or adverts
Never gonna happen I no
Would that stop the BS? Etc
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All the reminiscing. There was less bs? Not so sure about that. There was certainly less available information so you couldn't choose to become a total willow nerd in the same way and there wasn't the ability for large groups of nerds to collectively form a community anywhere near as easily, but I call pants on less bs...
I wasn't suggesting everything was better 'back in the day'. Just some things!
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Whilst were here and talking BS some need to stop saying made in the UK whilst there at it.....
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Whilst were here and talking BS some need to stop saying made in the UK whilst there at it.....
Or handmade?
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Like you, Paul, Owen Jones identifies greed as an evil thing. And the reason for the decline in proper apprenticeships etc.
Like many sports folk, I guess you would tell me that you're not really into politics? But, from your posts, you clearly are!
Well I suppose I am interested in politics to certain degree. My big thing about anything in life is, I don't believe any politicians do things for the right reason. There is always an ulterior motive behind it. It is either an effort for self promotion or they are pushing something forward that will benefit them financially. I had the same thought when i was cricketing I believed in team ethics not individual promotion. I read a great article about the England rugby coach at the moment Stuart Lancaster in his belief that it's not just about the physical attributes that makes a good player it's about what you have in your heart and why you are doing it. Those thoughts were my demise at Derbyshire as I stood up to the opposite when dominic cork was in charge. I made the poor decision as to tell the truth to the chairman when asked my opinion as a senior player and so I told him. I never played another first class game for the next year and a half and then released. It proved to be true though cork was sacked a year later and he had the same impact at Lancashire. Great player mind but there's more to it. Do I regret it? No, it was gutting to come to an end when I felt I had so much to offer the club and still do to be honest as far as management and motivation but I don't regret being honest, I know I can always hold my head high knowing I did what was true and honest.
Why do we want to do anything? Everyone has different motivations. Mine are satisfaction not financial. Granted I want to make a living but I'm not interested in being a millionaire or taking over the world, if it made me reasonably comfortable financially that would be fantastic but at the end of the day I love doing it and really love the thought of keeping a true tradition alive. Why? Just because I think we should, it's down to the few of us who still think like this in all trades. I don't want to claim that I am selling hand made bats and not actually doing it myself from start to finish, anyone can do that anyone can follow the flock, if I could make the softs too I would. If I had the finance I would set a factory up in the uk to do it. It's down to what is held true to yourself in my humble opinion. If you haven't seen the link on my page take a look this is what I am talking about tradition it just shows how I shape a bat by hand using the traditional tools. This is how it was always done but is slipping away rapidly. Lots of labels not many makers or people who press themselves either in the grand scheme of things
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Bit out there but bear with me.
To stop all the half truths and lies of omission, could a trade body or consortium of manufactures be started to regulate and accredit bat makers. (May already be one if I am naive tell me to sushhh)
So to call Cornish pasty a proper pasty it has to be made in cornwall to certain standards, the same as parmesan, champagne etc. All have geographical or certain conditions that allow it to be called what it is called.
Could this be done for cricket bats, so to be called handmade, the process has to be done 80% by hand, or the shaping has to be done by hand. For it to be called made in the UK the process has to take place in the uk. Not ship the clefts to India, shape them then handle them in the UK and claim they are made in the UK.
Or another string in the bow could be that if a company still wants to make bats in India, guarantees as to fair wages and certain safety conditions, like wearing shoes, protective glasses etc. I know that this would cost an arm and a leg, and there are many issues with participation etc, but hypothetically would it solve many of the grading, miscommunications that exist?
Back to my dissertation.....
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I tried to do this and it was difficult to get enough support for the idea sadly, so it's now on a back burner along with a lot of research.
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Well if you make them yourself as a small business you have to make good bats or else you won't get customers back so you don't make a living. You don't get minimum wage working for yourself, you get what's left. Not a bad incentive to be good at what you do.
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Very fair point. If I did not already have a dissertation underway I would love to do it on the determinants of success in the cricket bat making industry. There is very little literature about cricket bats other than wood construction etc!
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Well if you need to know the truth about many aspects I am here
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Whilst were here and talking BS some need to stop saying made in the UK whilst there at it.....
aren't they made in South Africa?
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Bs as in bull (No Swearing Please) mate not the brand.
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we should grade bats on performance not looks !!!
IMO
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we should grade bats on performance not looks !!!
IMO
And how would you propose doing that?
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And how would you propose doing that?
A very good question, and quite possibly the whole point of this forum. ;)
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Basically it boils down to predicting how the bat will play later in its life and looks/grading may come into such consideration. Especially when buying online i suppose. One may be a bit more picky than usual.
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A bat is like a girlfriend. You rub it with oil, take it out once a week and, if you are not careful, spend too much money on it. therefore, You want it to look good and perform well. My 25 yr old SS Turbo Grand Prix, which is still going strong, has both good looks and performance. The reason it has lasted so long (nearing 10,000 runs) is because I have treated it well. Would I have lavished as much love on it if it looked like a dog? I doubt it.
Is it a good bat because it has 8 straight and evenly spaced grains - no, Is my Salix grade 1 a good bat for the same reason? No. They are good bats because they have been made by people who know what they are doing. Will I look after them better because I appreciate the quality of the willow and craftsmanship? Yes.
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My 25 yr old SS Turbo Grand Prix, which is still going strong,
I saw one of these in Southend this year...
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While looking at a 'Pro' grade bat with knots on the face but not in the playing area I was told as long as the knots were not 'enclosed' (black?), the area was not dead and would not effect the performance of the bat.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
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While looking at a 'Pro' grade bat with knots on the face but not in the playing area I was told as long as the knots were not 'enclosed' (black?), the area was not dead and would not effect the performance of the bat.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
I think the bats with knots etc. in so called right places just happened to be good performing bats. Then again I am not a willow scientist. Personally I would go for a blemish free bat as most of the good performing bats I have seen have been good looking as well.
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I personally care about grading because I fear makers/retailers are 99.9% of the time, just looking to make the most they can. If that means making a ugly bat a grade 1/2 and saying it's based on 'performance', or saying 'ah, but there are not guidelines so we can do what we want', then to me they are just saying 'pay up or shut up'.
While people then turn around saying 'ah, so just go somewhere else then, market forces blah blah'... does that really work?? no.. You know as well as I do that all that happens is people just keep raising the prices and boom.. suddenly we the consumer are paying more and more and there is nothing you can do about it.
That's why I get annoyed when I see bats that don't seem value for money BUT it is a personal opinion and I suspect most people don't care and merely care about telling people 'I payed £300 for this, it must be better than yours'.
Each to their own, but this is what retailers thrive off as these are the customers to target and cash in.
(not saying it's any one retailers fault, just the way our western economies are now. All about the profit and not about actually providing genuine competition. we all want to earn 100k a year for doing feck all and that's what business leaders are aiming for.. max profit for as little work as possible.)
Couldn't agree with you more mate!!!
One of the issues we forget to discuss, especially when talking about large brands, are the reason for the prices.
Unfortunately it isn't the quality of the timber that determines the price you pay, its the number of big stars that are 'sponsored' by them.
The profit the big companies make of the run of the mill players, goes straight into the pocket of the big stars.
For the record, i believe that if you're paying top price, we should be talking perfectly straight grains, perfect balance, perfect ping/performance. If these don't exist in a particular season, then they shouldn't 'bump up' the grade 2 and pass it off as top grade.
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Stumbled across a nice analogy today while browsing the fruit and veg aisle at the supermarket. I was looking at some lemons for the lemon drizzle cake my GF is making for our forum event on Saturday.
I watched someone pick up some 'premium' lemons, all of which looked absolutely perfect, her husband looked at the price and went 'how much?! for bloody lemons?!'
He chucked a packet of budget lemons at her, all of which had some discolouration, were oddly shaped and when i had a look after they had left, felt a little soft, almost 'on the turn.' She looked at him in shock and said 'i don't want those ugly lemons!'
'What do you need them for?'
'I'm making lemon meringue pie.'
'Well what do you need a perfect looking lemon for if it is going straight into a cake?'
'I just do, OK.'
'Fine, get what you want.'
Aside from the mundane quality of eavesdropping material compared to what i normally get out of my trips to the supermarket, it raised a nice comparison to cricket.
There are cheaper lemons and cricket bats, both of which come with various imperfections, but ultimately they both get the job done. There are also higher grade lemons and cricket bats, and most of the time they look fantastic, but there is no guarantee they will perform or taste any better. There are people out there who will always go for the better looking item (for the higher price) often without much more reason than just because they like the appearance.
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Having now got my hands on a pro bat... You can see how poor the 300 quid ones really are in comparison.
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I want top performance. I don't care about how the bat looks. If it's an ugly Betty of a bat but it goes like a cannon, then I want it.
Stumbled across a nice analogy today while browsing the fruit and veg aisle at the supermarket. I was looking at some lemons for the lemon drizzle cake my GF is making for our forum event on Saturday.
I watched someone pick up some 'premium' lemons, all of which looked absolutely perfect, her husband looked at the price and went 'how much?! for bloody lemons?!'
He chucked a packet of budget lemons at her, all of which had some discolouration, were oddly shaped and when i had a look after they had left, felt a little soft, almost 'on the turn.' She looked at him in shock and said 'i don't want those ugly lemons!'
'What do you need them for?'
'I'm making lemon meringue pie.'
'Well what do you need a perfect looking lemon for if it is going straight into a cake?'
'I just do, OK.'
'Fine, get what you want.'
Aside from the mundane quality of eavesdropping material compared to what i normally get out of my trips to the supermarket, it raised a nice comparison to cricket.
There are cheaper lemons and cricket bats, both of which come with various imperfections, but ultimately they both get the job done. There are also higher grade lemons and cricket bats, and most of the time they look fantastic, but there is no guarantee they will perform or taste any better. There are people out there who will always go for the better looking item (for the higher price) often without much more reason than just because they like the appearance.
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Pictures?
Having now got my hands on a pro bat... You can see how poor the 300 quid ones really are in comparison.
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Pictures?
Soulmans from the h4l game so already here somewhere.