Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: tim2000s on June 10, 2014, 06:50:40 AM
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As I was cycling in to work today, on a bike that cost around 500 of the Queen's shiny pounds, it occurred to me just how expensive some of the top end bats are.
Here I had a bike that cost only slightly more than a top end chunk of willow with some cane sticking out of it, and I was able to use it to commute to work and save myself the cost of public transport. The more I thought about it the dafter it seemed. Once you get above three hundred shiny pounds you are into territory that is frankly, a little scary. As I mentioned, you can purchase yourself a reasonable bike, a number of household appliances, a reasonable digital SLR, in fact, a whole host of things. As we've also discovered, you can get some very decent bats at a whole lot less than this price (especially if you shop at Sports Direct).
Given the complexity of many of these items, is it reasonable to spend £400 on a piece of willow? Is a batmaker's time, space and knowledge really that valuable for something that is not your livelihood?
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Nope, complete waste and ego driven only. However, some will always buy it to prove how rich/important /good they are.
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I think I probabaly agree on that; the bats I have bought that were most expensive - M&H Distinction and Master at £275 each - were lovely, there is no denying it. But then at £200 I got an equally excellent HAttori & Tempo from Matt at H4L and a frankly superb Black Cat Custom. This rather suggests that £200 is a decent level of spend, and that is artificially highby my need for Long Blades, which rules out a lot of mass market manufacturers.
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When I bought my GM this season as soon as I'd paid for it I thought 'what have I just spent just shy of £300 on' but I did treat myself for the first time on a top of the range bat after getting a bonus at work. I could have spent it else where on something that was probably worth the money.
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I will be at GN in Melbourne in 2 weeks, be interesting to see what justifies the Legend gold price tag. Been told ordering has been strong for them.
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I think £200 would be my price limit. I cant justify spending more than that on a bat when you consider I bat 8-11 so on a good day might face about 50 balls and then have a 15min net twice a week.
But that said I do have a burning desire to get one of those B&S Ltd edition & UZI Pro bats... :D More likely the B&S as they are a lot closer to my price range.
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top end bats are a luxury .............................. but most people only buy one at that price and not hoard bats at £225 each.
£500 for a bike ... does it have pedals? Some folk are dishing out thousands for a bike, so no different to cricket bats i suppose.
In everything there is luxury items which people will pay for but I have to agree that anything more than £300 is ridiculous.
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is it not a status symbol?
you buy a gn legend/gm palyers ed etc etc, you are really saying, look at me.
when for 200 or less you can easily buy a python/red ink/rk and have the same grade and quality stivck as above, your just missing the stickers.
thing is, when i see someone scoring runs galore, they dont generally have a top end bat, top 3 run scorers in our league last season had a 2012 biggest kahuna, a 2stripe b3 and a gm 808 1885.
not what youd say top end
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A good comparison.
When you break down the cost of the components, labor, shipping, retail margin, (and more besides) which went into making your bike, it shows that business can live on slim margins.
It also shines a blinding light on the crazy prices charged for an asset which should last nowhere near as long as your bike.
I've said it before, but the prices some bat makers charge is hilarious! How can anyone defend a brand with one workshop, low overhead charging >300/350/400? You know who you are.
Even worse are the box shifters who buy blanks, sticker them up, hype them to the stars, and charge >300. You know who you are.
A fair price is the price you should charge or pay.
However, people are greedy and feel that by paying more they are getting more, and suppliers know that by charging more they can make more money. Whilst people pay over the odds, suppliers will charge.
Anyone for an asset bubble?
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I agree with the gist of this thread which is why this forum is so great.
Currently there's a Newbery Krakatoa SPS going on here for 145 gbp including postage, which is not just a top end bat but an absolute bargain for any batsman.
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I spent £205 on a bat once. Never spending that again! Low end bargains to be had from the big manufacturers, or a nice lower grade custom is a better bet.
After all, you're paying for looks, not performance.
Save money - go for a munter! ;)
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Would a £100 bike get you to work Tim?
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Most I've ever spent on a bat is $195. The lower grade kook and GN are great value for money.
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Anything you buy has a value based largely around what the percevied punter is likely to be willing to spend!
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Hard question but I also have a bike bought for £300 added some parts now a very solid racer (£450 altogether) I cycle to work which is about 15mins away by bike every morning and evening through the week so 2.5hrs of cycling. I then look at how much I play cricket 2 matches + training = 11.5hrs a week, so for me with the amount I play its worth me paying top end
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Just to put it into more context, I bought a 1968 Omega Chronostop watch for £250.
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And how long does it take to get to work riding that?
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One of the problems is thatThe majority of the cricket bat buying public have a lack of knowledge regarding what constitutes a good bat they think if I want the best I must pay top money so if the bat is priced £ 400 they pay.
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the majority of club cricketers are paying to sponsor the pro's
that's one of the reasons bats are so expensive
of course it depends whether you always want a brad new bat,how many of us stick with one bat for 2/3 years or buy second hand?
personally I buy second hand bats now,either off this forum or ebay. If you look hard enough you can get a good deal
i'm sure most of us on this forum can do basic refurbs too to make it a decent bat
but each to their own, I see players week in week out buying top end bats,top end equipment and they dont have the ability...but they are happy with a 400 quid salix/m and h/gm/gn bat...
cricket and batting in particular may be in the mind but it's not the bat that scores the runs it's the player..we all want more runs,a better bat but in reality your bat is your mate,it will help you out but ask too much and he(she) will let you down :) :) :)
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I will be at GN in Melbourne in 2 weeks, be interesting to see what justifies the Legend gold price tag. Been told ordering has been strong for them.
Asked about the price tag in their contact us section. I basically said it is the most expensive bat in the world and more expensive than a L and W signature. The signature has more benefits like customization and less are made (about 5 or 6). So why is the Legend Gold more expensive?
It has been a day with no reply (two including a public holiday). Hopefully they will reply soon :/
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the majority of club cricketers are paying to sponsor the pro's
that's one of the reasons bats are so expensive
of course it depends whether you always want a brad new bat,how many of us stick with one bat for 2/3 years or buy second hand?
personally I buy second hand bats now,either off this forum or ebay. If you look hard enough you can get a good deal
i'm sure most of us on this forum can do basic refurbs too to make it a decent bat
but each to their own, I see players week in week out buying top end bats,top end equipment and they dont have the ability...but they are happy with a 400 quid salix/m and h/gm/gn bat...
cricket and batting in particular may be in the mind but it's not the bat that scores the runs it's the player..we all want more runs,a better bat but in reality your bat is your mate,it will help you out but ask too much and he(she) will let you down :) :) :)
Yep.
But...
I'm just enjoying the odd birthday gift/work bonus splurge before real life takes over.
I don't apologise for what I spend and I think if you don't blow stupid cash at the weekend boozing or overpay money on a showy car then you can make allowances elsewhere and but the odd bat here and there. Cut your cloth accordingly.
Choice is choice, and seeing how some people have posted here about the virtues of one bat but own and show off a new one every couple of months then it's obviously a case of say one thing and do another. :)
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Would a £100 bike get you to work Tim?
It would, but bear in mind that my bike cost £500, I've had it since 2008 and it's had it's running gear, brakes, etc, completely replaced once (effectively a mid-life service costing around £200). Whilst the frame is solid, the (cheaper) one I used previously cracked at one of the welds. Given the miles I am doing, while a £100 bike would get me to work, I would have had to replace components a couple of times and I'm not sure it would have lasted for the six years mine has.
And how long does it take to get to work riding that?
The bike is a single speed beasty that takes roughly 35 mins to get to work and has now covered some 8,000 miles.
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It would, but bear in mind that my bike cost £500, I've had it since 2008 and it's had it's running gear, brakes, etc, completely replaced once (effectively a mid-life service costing around £200). Whilst the frame is solid, the (cheaper) one I used previously cracked at one of the welds. Given the miles I am doing, while a £100 bike would get me to work, I would have had to replace components a couple of times and I'm not sure it would have lasted for the six years mine has.
The bike is a single speed beasty that takes roughly 35 mins to get to work and has now covered some 8,000 miles.
Maybe you need to ride more regular and eat a little healthier... ;)
The 2nd question wasn't directed at you Tim it was directed at the 1968 10 speed carbon fibre chronostop with helium filled frame and nitrogen filled second hand :D
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The bike is a single speed beasty that takes roughly 35 mins to get to work and has now covered some 8,000 miles.
Nutter! I think I would rather shove live wasps up my rectum than cycle to work in London!
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Asked about the price tag in their contact us section. I basically said it is the most expensive bat in the world and more expensive than a L and W signature. The signature has more benefits like customization and less are made (about 5 or 6). So why is the Legend Gold more expensive?
It has been a day with no reply (two including a public holiday). Hopefully they will reply soon :/
The one major benefit it has over a Laver & Wood is that it's not a Laver & Wood.
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Maybe you need to ride more regular and eat a little healthier... ;)
The 2nd question wasn't directed at you Tim it was directed at the 1968 10 speed carbon fibre chronostop with helium filled frame and nitrogen filled second hand :D
Lol - what's one of those? ;)
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The one major benefit it has over a Laver & Wood is that it's not a Laver & Wood.
What is wrong with a Laver and Wood?
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I see what your getting at, but if people weren't spending there spare money on cricket bats, it would surely be something else. Look at car enthusiasts, that's not a cheap hobby. Or people who buy boats for skiing or fishing, again far from cheap. Then you have people who spend all their money on alcohol, cigarettes and drugs. I hardly drink, and don't smoke or do drugs, so see spending money on something like cricket very justifiable
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Anything you buy has a value based largely around what the percevied punter is likely to be willing to spend!
I agree with you, but the thing is that companies are charging more money for a bat with no obvious reason.
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And how long does it take to get to work riding that?
45 mins 54 secs, precisely.
:D
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I agree with you, but the thing is that companies are charging more money for a bat with no obvious reason.
its a complete rip off, however the smaller brands that use the bigger brands to make their bats and sell at £200 to £250 represent real value. You can get a newbery SPS (without their stickers) for £190 if you look in the right places ;)
Those that sticker up a bat made in India for £50 yet charge £300+ are the ones that are taking the mick, they should be openly questioned about it on twitter and facebook where they are happy spam people and spout all sorts of drivel.
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Newbery are now doing custom made bats for a minimum of £350
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Newbery are now doing custom made bats for a minimum of £350
BB sell something like that for much less.
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BB sell something like that for much less.
made by the same hands, I hear!
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Which every way you look at it if you pay £500 for a bat you are being fleeced, just looking at the money Paul Aldridge charges tells me that. Why pay £500 for a bat from any big retailer, when you can go to Paul or any other bat maker on this forum and a quality stick for at least half the price. I play with guys who only buy GN and pay £350+ they are mental, I tell them to use a batmaker/retailer here but the same rubbish gets spouted about how they only us GN etc. What I find funny is that they have to send their bats back then get a replacement and they think this is a good thing! I used to use powerbows until they got stupidly expensive about 5 or 6 years ago. Since then I've had 2 Fusions 1 custom made £200 about 5 years ago and the 2nd £125 last year (2nd one is just starting to go like a gun, 1st one lasted 4 years with one £20 refurb) and I picked up real weapon from John @ Shamrock for £100 and not had to send one of these bats back. I'd happily pay a good batmaker around £200ish for his time and expertise for a quality bat (i've got my eye on one of Paul's next season), but anymore is ridiculous IMHO.
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Yep.
But...
I'm just enjoying the odd birthday gift/work bonus splurge before real life takes over.
I don't apologise for what I spend and I think if you don't blow stupid cash at the weekend boozing or overpay money on a showy car then you can make allowances elsewhere and but the odd bat here and there. Cut your cloth accordingly.
Choice is choice, and seeing how some people have posted here about the virtues of one bat but own and show off a new one every couple of months then it's obviously a case of say one thing and do another. :)
I totally agree; I visited Salix a couple of weeks ago for a new bat, and spent a reasonable amount of cash on it, but it was a 50th birthday present, so I see no issue with that, it was my decision. Consumers choose to spend their money on whatever takes their fancy; be that bats, cars, TV's, digital SLR's, booze, cigarettes etc. Luxury means just that; something that is conducive to sumptuous living, a frippery, not a necessity. I wouldn't dream of spending £400 on a camera for example, but that's my choice, my lifestyle and hobbies determine where my cash is spent. That said, I wouldn't dream of spending £400 on a GM / GN / Kook etc either!
Choice is choice as Alvaro puts it....
Anyway, my 10p's worth (as I wouldn't dare spend more than that on an opinion :) )
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I have what I consider to be a top end bat made by a forum sponsor. Not cheap but nowhere near the sort of money Tim was talking about when he started this thread. I'm far too plonky a player to justify even my relatively modest outlay, however, I'm scoring runs with it and have already scored more runs than I scored last season so I don't regret the investment.
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Price is positioned at what people will pay.
It doesn't matter about costs and overheads of the company, you price your product comparably to the place you believe your product is worth. customers will then make the decision as to whether it is worth that money.
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Price is positioned at what people will pay.
It doesn't matter about costs and overheads of the company, you price your product comparably to the place you believe your product is worth. customers will then make the decision as to whether it is worth that money.
Correct, there is a market for them or they wouldn't exist.
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A fool and his money.......
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A fool and his money.......
bought Marouane Fellaini? :D
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...............usually get mugged!
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...run (insert name of high street bank here)
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Who is the more foolish, the man who spends £400 on one bat and uses it for matches, nets, etc or the man who spends £1000s on 10+ bats and most hardly ever get used?
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Who is the more foolish, the man who spends £400 on one bat and uses it for matches, nets, etc or the man who spends £1000s on 10+ bats and most hardly ever get used?
Careful... you could get yourself in trouble with a lot of people on the forum with a statement like that!!! ;)
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I spent £205 on a bat once. Never spending that again! Low end bargains to be had from the big manufacturers, or a nice lower grade custom is a better bet.
After all, you're paying for looks, not performance.
Save money - go for a munter! ;)
That's my theory in strip clubs...
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Who is the more foolish, the man who spends £400 on one bat and uses it for matches, nets, etc or the man who spends £1000s on 10+ bats and most hardly ever get used?
I wasn't going there. The point was more that a £400 bat that is used twice a week and lasts for 18-24 months isn't necessarily value for money... If you have more than one then you clearly have more money than most.
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I almost see buying bat's as a collection, instead of tools that are Required , it really boils down to this IMO:
Is spending excessive amounts of money on cricket bat's that won't be used that much necessary? Certainly Not!
Is spending excessive amounts of money on cricket bat's that won't be used that much Fun and enjoyable? Hell Yeah!
People work hard to earn their own money, you cannot call someone foolish because they chose to spend their money on something they want
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Who is the more foolish, the man who spends £400 on one bat and uses it for matches, nets, etc or the man who spends £1000s on 10+ bats and most hardly ever get used?
The man who isn't fool, drives a Volkswagen GTI
(anyone remember the advert from the 80's? Bloke outside a casino?)
Got to love a Mk2 Golf
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I have bats from each end of the spectrum from £100 - £500 and I believe there is a difference personally. You can get some amazing deals as we have seen from SD but they make there money in other ways and in some ways must make something on the gear they sell.
You could have bought a bike that would do the same job for £100 but spent £500. You could also have bought a bike for £5000 but £500 was your budget, choice, deal whatever. It's the same with bats in my opinion. You spend what you want or can afford simple really. Do you need to spend more than £200 probably not but if you do its not a problem in my view.
I could try and argue a reason why companies brand charge more but feel to some it would be a waste if my time. Some will just sticker up ready mades or have there bats made by others and claim to make them themselves these I do not get charging over £250 for example but those that have overheads, multiple workshops, employees etc in my view can charge what they like. At the end of the day if they have been around a while they have a good idea of the business they run.
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I can't see any reason to spend any more than £150 on a bat, let alone double that. Even within my small budget, I have been able to acquire some fantastic bats through sales or the second hand market. I don't see the need to pay anything more.
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As I was cycling in to work today, on a bike that cost around 500 of the Queen's shiny pounds, it occurred to me just how expensive some of the top end bats are.
Here I had a bike that cost only slightly more than a top end chunk of willow with some cane sticking out of it, and I was able to use it to commute to work and save myself the cost of public transport. The more I thought about it the dafter it seemed. Once you get above three hundred shiny pounds you are into territory that is frankly, a little scary. As I mentioned, you can purchase yourself a reasonable bike, a number of household appliances, a reasonable digital SLR, in fact, a whole host of things. As we've also discovered, you can get some very decent bats at a whole lot less than this price (especially if you shop at Sports Direct).
Given the complexity of many of these items, is it reasonable to spend £400 on a piece of willow? Is a batmaker's time, space and knowledge really that valuable for something that is not your livelihood?
There will always be amateurs who shop at the bargain end of the market, and there will always be people who shop at the top end of the market. I know amateur photographers who will spend several thousand on top of the range body and another few thousand on high quality long lenses. Equally there will be people who only have a Ford Fiesta as a car while others will buy a Ferrari. It's their money and their choice!
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I can't see any reason to spend any more than £150 on a bat, let alone double that. Even within my small budget, I have been able to acquire some fantastic bats through sales or the second hand market. I don't see the need to pay anything more.
I'm with you on that. I've never paid more than £150 for a bat. And my current match bat was picked up on here for a very reasonable price and is an absolute gun!
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I have bats from each end of the spectrum from £100 - £500 and I believe there is a difference personally. You can get some amazing deals as we have seen from SD but they make there money in other ways and in some ways must make something on the gear they sell.
You could have bought a bike that would do the same job for £100 but spent £500. You could also have bought a bike for £5000 but £500 was your budget, choice, deal whatever. It's the same with bats in my opinion. You spend what you want or can afford simple really. Do you need to spend more than £200 probably not but if you do its not a problem in my view.
I could try and argue a reason why companies brand charge more but feel to some it would be a waste if my time. Some will just sticker up ready mades or have there bats made by others and claim to make them themselves these I do not get charging over £250 for example but those that have overheads, multiple workshops, employees etc in my view can charge what they like. At the end of the day if they have been around a while they have a good idea of the business they run.
I think the difference between a bike and bat are how they are priced and their components.
A bat is priced on looks. Pure and simple. I've not seen a 4 grain bat sold for top dollar.
A bike is priced on the quality, materials, craftsmanship of the components. A 5k bike will have the highest quality components, craftsmanship, technology. A 500 quid bat? Well, it's snake oil.
You don't buy a 5k bike =because it's got sexy graphics. but you buy a 500 quid bat because it's got 12 straight grains.
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I've said it before, but the prices some bat makers charge is hilarious! How can anyone defend a brand with one workshop, low overhead charging >300/350/400? You know who you are.
Even worse are the box shifters who buy blanks, sticker them up, hype them to the stars, and charge >300. You know who you are.
Anyone in particular?
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I think the difference between a bike and bat are how they are priced and their components.
A bat is priced on looks. Pure and simple. I've not seen a 4 grain bat sold for top dollar.
A bike is priced on the quality, materials, craftsmanship of the components. A 5k bike will have the highest quality components, craftsmanship, technology. A 500 quid bat? Well, it's snake oil.
You don't buy a 5k bike =because it's got sexy graphics. but you buy a 500 quid bat because it's got 12 straight grains.
I'm not that's 100% fair. You also buy on name, which is also true of bikes, however, if you want to spend 5k on a bike, you're able to get a lesser name with great quality kit.
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Plus you're usually getting the latest technology with high end bikes. The materials used in a bat however are pretty much the same no matter what price point
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Plus you're usually getting the latest technology with high end bikes. The materials used in a bat however are pretty much the same no matter what price point
Unless you buy a Lekka, they'll always have the latest XXXtra good teXXXnology in theirs! ;)
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I think the difference between a bike and bat are how they are priced and their components.
A bat is priced on looks. Pure and simple. I've not seen a 4 grain bat sold for top dollar.
A bike is priced on the quality, materials, craftsmanship of the components. A 5k bike will have the highest quality components, craftsmanship, technology. A 500 quid bat? Well, it's snake oil.
You don't buy a 5k bike =because it's got sexy graphics. but you buy a 500 quid bat because it's got 12 straight grains.
Agreed. You can break a bike down into its components to find the price. A bike requires R&D , engineering, welding etc. But a 500pound bat is the same as a 200pound in regards to its requirements to get made.
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So all bat makers get paid the same?
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Top end bats are indeed a luxury for cricketers
I think it's possible to pick up a decent enough bat for £200,
Does a bat costing more than that look or perform better?
If a company/bat maker can get away with charging more, then fair play to them
The margins on a genuine grade one bat are tiny compared to most products,
The only company,that personally, bothers me at the moment regarding pricing, is GN
This whole 'legend' thing is way overpriced
I love the look of the bats etc but £500 plus! That's really not cricket
With the huge amount of online reviews nowadays , companies that do take the mick, are living on borrowed time
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From memory, going back 20 - 25 years ago a top of the range bat from the big names would cost around £100 to £150. Ten years ago, that would have been more £230 (Purist - Original L.E from Romida - I bought an 'Original' based on feel which was about £160).
£500+ for a bat is obscene in my opinion.
And as we know, go to a shop and you can pick yourself a decent stick from any of the grades available. Also, when you know there are bat makers like the sponsors on here that make great sticks for a much more reasonable sum, why would you pay £500+ for a bat !
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Having spent some time at Chase yesterday, I can see that there are occasions where an expensive bat is justifiable. If I knew that a bat would fly, and last for 2-3 seasons it would actually be cheaper than buying the 2 (at least) that I seem to buy every year!
Like anything, it comes down to value for money. If I hadn't already bought a £200 bat this year, to go with my £200 last year (which isn't really right for me), I would probably spend the £375 on the Chase FLC and have it made exactly as I want it.
Needless to say though, I didn't buy it!
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My last bat cost me under £80 to make. I would only sell it for £120, yet even as a Grade 3 bat it is the nicest bat I have ever used. Not just because I made it myself, it genuinely performs beautifully and everyone who has tried it has said the same.
Charging someone over £200 for a bat is purely greed. If I sell a bat I make about £40-£50 profit, and I am buying clefts one at a time. Large manufacturers are buying them in the thousands, so their costs are considerably less than mine. That being said, I make bats for the pleasure of crafting something by hand, not to line my pockets. I make a profit purely to afford to purchase the next piece of willow and have a bit left to spend on which ever tools i still require.
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Charging someone over £200 for a bat is purely greed. If I sell a bat I make about £40-£50 profit, and I am buying clefts one at a time. Large manufacturers are buying them in the thousands, so their costs are considerably less than mine. That being said, I make bats for the pleasure of crafting something by hand, not to line my pockets. I make a profit purely to afford to purchase the next piece of willow and have a bit left to spend on which ever tools i still require.
Do you pay for your salary out of the price of the bat, or your workshop costs? Stating that "Over £200 is purely greed" is a blunt statement that misses out on the point of what the costs of making the bat actually are. Profit is what remains once all costs are taken out. Profit is not actually greed, it is what you use to re-invest, grow the business, etc. There is nothing wrong with making a profit.
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Sometimes I think we all have it the wrong way round, with a cricket bat I've always been told that the wood is the key to a great bat, followed by the pressing and knocking, combine the 2 and you won't be beaten. Since sellers are depending on your viewpoint, simply making a living and only adding a margin on the trade price to make a living or simply talking bull by adding ++++++ to their low grade bats you have to question the sense in buying low grade. I see plenty of bargains being show here and I'm sure that the companies selling them know nothing about bats as most seem to think, but then they do know if the bat has faults in it such as knots, density, they get to tap it up, they know if the handle was bodged in fitting. They have the luxuary of covering the faults with stickers, edge tape etc, pushing the pretty grains on the face knowing about the big knot under the labels. I think the top end shop bats have the very best willow and are pressed as well as anything else, knocking is more important than pressing anyway long term. With a finite amount of top grade willow would it not be mad to spend £200 on someones second grade compared with £300 on the best grade?
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I think the top end shop bats have the very best willow and are pressed as well as anything else, knocking is more important than pressing anyway long term. With a finite amount of top grade willow would it not be mad to spend £200 on someones second grade compared with £300 on the best grade?
Given that the top grade willow is only top grade because of the way it looks, wouldn't the inverse be true?
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knocking is more important than pressing anyway long term
Err, not agreeing with that at all :o
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Is a bat worth 500? No, and it's probably wise we stop referencing them - it's an infinitely narrow section of a batmakers target market that are dumb enough to blindly think money = best for all bats (although I'd still argue there is some correlation on that front) and have wardrobes/houses full of similar Veblen-y goods, or have a penchant for showing off. Or shop at Hammer ( ;) ).
So, if we limit our bats to the 'real world' spectrum of, say bats up to £350 (call it a standard top end M&H with an x% discount), is it worth it?
I'd argue, yes.
The problem lies in cynical or unscrupulous (or, realistically, entirely unresponsive to customer reviews/word of mouth) lies in the upgrading of clefts...because they can. I still think it's a complete fallacy that we/most people can judge a bats true eventual performance (and longevity) at point of purchase. A mallet test on an un-knocked-in bat tells you as little as the grain count IMO (whilst I agree that some of us could indeed pick up that magic cleft by sight and sound, the vast majority IMO just think they can). Eliminating duds is a perhaps better use of the in-shop-mallet-whack.
Why is a £350 value? Because, if you've picked the right brand (be it the batmaker or shop picker), they undoubtedly will save the best for the 'whales' that are willing to spend top whack on a bat. If you can afford it, do it. It's not for everyone, though those that do spend top whack on a bat shouldn't be confused with the mugs in the first paragraph, for it is those that are supporting a UK industry purchasing a typically custom product. There's a fair bit of virtue in this IMO. Not to mention it's those £350 bats that pay for the batmakers (similar length of) time spent on the lower clefts/duds. Of course this isn't for everyone, and there is a whopping sense of diminishing returns after, say £180. But it's not the cheapest of productions - years spent as an apprentice and the actual time picking/shaping/grading a cleft can't really find many shortcuts.
There is something a bit sad that no bat will last forever (I once thought (justified!) spending a fair bit on a bat as I'd take great pride in Dan Jnr wielding it (as I did my Dad's old bat- albeit in the garden) though soon learnt that might not be the case!).
The current vogue of bat inflation is a big worry, and something we as a market should work towards restricting. Sadly (IMO Value-less/cynical) brands like Spartan/Hammer black/GN Legend should not be encouraged.
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Given that the top grade willow is only top grade because of the way it looks, wouldn't the inverse be true?
Surely the fact that the better the looks means the less faults means better performance?
I think that better wood is refelected in looks, I'm learning all the time about willow but I work with a lot of other woods and it's all graded of looks as faults effect use, knots etc in Beech and Oak boards for furniture.
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Surely the fact that the better the looks means the less faults means better performance?
I think that better wood is refelected in looks, I'm learning all the time about willow but I work with a lot of other woods and it's all graded of looks as faults effect use, knots etc in Beech and Oak boards for furniture.
Read the thread on butterfly bats then come back haha ;)
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Surely the fact that the better the looks means the less faults means better performance?
I think that better wood is refelected in looks, I'm learning all the time about willow but I work with a lot of other woods and it's all graded of looks as faults effect use, knots etc in Beech and Oak boards for furniture.
And therein lies the interesting question. If this were 100% true, wouldn't butterfly willow be dreadful? Wouldn't heartwood destroy performance because it is different? In my experience, this isn't the case. I don't think perfect looks do directly translate to performance. Especially when you consider that an unpressed bat doesn't perform so it has a lot to do with that aspect...
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The odd thing is that Sapwood in Oak is too soft to use, so surely Heartwood being better in Hardwoods means Heartwood in bats is better too?
Butterfly stains are cosmetic, they are a different sub species of willow so how would this effect performance? However a knot is always harder and thus does not offer the spring needed to hit a ball. If knots were good then the effect could be replicated by over pressing a bat. We don't see this so I think we can discount the idea of knots no matter the size being good.
I have 4 Beech boards that were going to a customer but now have been removed from his pile as they are perfect, 2.4M long and blemish free, the price for them has gone from £240M3 for the basic boards to £1000M3 as they will end up being either a top end table or benches made by a local furniture makers.
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A few brands do puzzle me with their pricing ....
- I saw a black cat bat at £575 .... how do they justify that? they don't sponsor anyone, they don't have massive overheads so im puzzled by that,
similar to Hammer and their £125 sticker sets on their top bat.
willywonty, i am interested in making a slab table to seat 10 .... how much for a suitable slab of wood?
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Is a bat worth 500? No, and it's probably wise we stop referencing them - it's an infinitely narrow section of a batmakers target market that are dumb enough to blindly think money = best for all bats (although I'd still argue there is some correlation on that front) and have wardrobes/houses full of similar Veblen-y goods, or have a penchant for showing off. Or shop at Hammer ( ;) ).
The problem lies in cynical or unscrupulous (or, realistically, entirely unresponsive to customer reviews/word of mouth) lies in the upgrading of clefts...because they can. I still think it's a complete fallacy that we/most people can judge a bats true eventual performance (and longevity) at point of purchase. A mallet test on an un-knocked-in bat tells you as little as the grain count IMO (whilst I agree that some of us could indeed pick up that magic cleft by sight and sound, the vast majority IMO just think they can). Eliminating duds is a perhaps better use of the in-shop-mallet-whack.
Why is a £350 value? Because, if you've picked the right brand (be it the batmaker or shop picker), they undoubtedly will save the best for the 'whales' that are willing to spend top whack on a bat. If you can afford it, do it. It's not for everyone, though those that do spend top whack on a bat shouldn't be confused with the mugs in the first paragraph, for it is those that are supporting a UK industry purchasing a typically custom product. There's a fair bit of virtue in this IMO. Not to mention it's those £350 bats that pay for the batmakers (similar length of) time spent on the lower clefts/duds. Of course this isn't for everyone, and there is a whopping sense of diminishing returns after, say £180. But it's not the cheapest of productions - years spent as an apprentice and the actual time picking/shaping/grading a cleft can't really find many shortcuts.
There is something a bit sad that no bat will last forever (I once thought (justified!) spending a fair bit on a bat as I'd take great pride in Dan Jnr wielding it (as I did my Dad's old bat- albeit in the garden) though soon learnt that might not be the case!).
The current vogue of bat inflation is a big worry, and something we as a market should work towards restricting. Sadly (IMO Value-less/cynical) brands like Spartan/Hammer black/GN Legend should not be encouraged.
A very well made point.
I'd add Salix in there, without doubt. No doubt there will be cat calls for my head and a few will scream and scream.
Salix are (as many of the other brands you've mentioned) laughing in their tea cups each time they sell a bat for their inflated prices. You could add Uzi to that. They run (what appears to be) a very similar MO as Hammer and charge a small mortgage for a bat with their stickers (where is the value?).
The great news for them is that there are enough people out there willing to pay for (insert invisible value here).
Whilst there are a healthy number in the queue they will charge. However, it does give us something to look at whilst we are walking home with an equally good bat and pocket FULL of change.
Dave said it. Buy a decent bat, spend the rest on coaching.
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Surely the fact that the better the looks means the less faults means better performance?
I think that better wood is refelected in looks, I'm learning all the time about willow but I work with a lot of other woods and it's all graded of looks as faults effect use, knots etc in Beech and Oak boards for furniture.
I think B3 have given us an answer.
In one of the threads discussing a Crown bat, where the owner wasn't bowled over, they offered to replace it, no questions. They extend this to the Crown range.
That tells us that even with the scientific approach they use, a plank is still occasionally hiding behind a sexy body.
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The odd thing is that Sapwood in Oak is too soft to use, so surely Heartwood being better in Hardwoods means Heartwood in bats is better too?
However, heartwood in Willow seems to be stronger but more brittle, which wouldn't be such a good proposition.
Butterfly stains are cosmetic, they are a different sub species of willow so how would this effect performance? However a knot is always harder and thus does not offer the spring needed to hit a ball. If knots were good then the effect could be replicated by over pressing a bat. We don't see this so I think we can discount the idea of knots no matter the size being good.
And yet according to Wrights, "It is attributed to pruning and frost damage, especially by hard pruning of larger branches that causes scarring in the timber. (Found in our own research and confirmed by the Forestry Commission). Although most of the public do not understand the butterfly stain, it adds strength to the finished bat, giving longer life of the bat with much less likely hood of the bats breaking."
This would suggest that it isn't solely cosmetic nor is it something found in a different sub-species? (Note: I am not an expert so I am asking a legitimate question.)
I have 4 Beech boards that were going to a customer but now have been removed from his pile as they are perfect, 2.4M long and blemish free, the price for them has gone from £240M3 for the basic boards to £1000M3 as they will end up being either a top end table or benches made by a local furniture makers.
And finally, these perfect pieces are being sold at a higher price because they look best (and you are therefore making them Grade 1), not because you are determining that they perform better dynamically due to the way they look. You could make an equally performing table from the cheaper wood.
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I'd add Salix in there, without doubt. No doubt there will be cat calls for my head and a few will scream and scream.
Salix are (as many of the other brands you've mentioned) laughing in their tea cups each time they sell a bat for their inflated prices. You could add Uzi to that. They run (what appears to be) a very similar MO as Hammer and charge a small mortgage for a bat with their stickers (where is the value?).
People place a value on AK being a better (be that what it may - more reliable or just better at maximising a piece of woods performance) bat maker/selector. Simple. I think it's quite apt he charges a premium. Ditto the value in the years AK spent under JM. I can't stand Salix because their shapes bore me to death, though I do appreciate they are probably the best big bat brand for consistent performance - a genuine connoisseurs bat, if you will. We'll call it a Rolex - it performs, yet is loved and in the stretches of the hoi polloi.
Sorry, but to say they run a similar MO to Hammer (if anything, the Panerai* of brands?) is way off IMO.
I never had Uzi down as an overly expensive brand though? Tbf he lead the charge in 'hand picking' bats and should be lauded (and valued) as such (to a degree).
*As a watch man, are Panerai's genuinely a laughing stock amongst watch nerds? I LOVE the look of them, and I know I shouldn't care what other people think, but is it really throwing silly money at something that really isn't that valuable and only make me look like a third division pro footballer?
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A reasonable point.
Not sure I'd join the throng in not loving Paneri. Personally I love them!
I'd put them above Rolex. In fact, a very experienced high end watch retailer called my Rolex the 'Painter and Decorator's' watch, as lots of those tradesmen in Brighton (where I lived when I bought the darn thing) had them!
I'd call the Rolex brand the brand of the 3rd tier footballer. Just too obvious!
Salix. I accept the experience of AK but wouldn't pay the premium he places on it. And Yes, they profiles are lacking much.
Uzi? I'd expect someone who just adds stickers to try and do something to add value. Not sure hand picking is enough, IMO.
Back to Tim's point, do any of these add that huge value premium to justify their prices? I don't think so when you look at the rest of the market.
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And finally, these perfect pieces are being sold at a higher price because they look best (and you are therefore making them Grade 1), not because you are determining that they perform better dynamically due to the way they look. You could make an equally performing table from the cheaper wood.
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Yes in fact a board with no knots will be unlikely to split when dried, also it will be able to be worked however the maker wants it and will be a stronger longer lasting bit of furniture.
And as for heartwood, I understand that it is stronger, maybe a little more brittle but should have greater strength.
I'm not sure about what people call Butterfly, I've see all sorts of knots called it, but I guess as with everything the seller will dress his/her product as they see fit, in order to boost sales. You get all sorts of stain in wood, none really affect it other than cosmetically.