Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: procricket on July 06, 2014, 10:13:26 AM
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Got to start to say i know both processes and know them well.
Was intrigued today by somebody telling me machine made bats are not as good as traditional made bats.
The discussion took about 2 minutes to correct but would like to know what people real thoughts are of the process advantages and disadvantages of both.
Good to see people knowledge.
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I think there is room for both. Both methods have their merits. Both can produce great performing bats.
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I think there is room for both. Both methods have their merits. Both can produce great performing bats.
Yes agree mate but what are the pro and cons of both.
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At the end of the day if it's hand made or CNCd that's just the shaping of the bat, it's the pressing that makes the bat perform, if it's well pressed it will be a decent bat regardless if it's hand made or CNC made.
This can be locked now ;)
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At the end of the day if it's hand made or CNCd that's just the shaping of the bat, it's the pressing that makes the bat perform, if it's well pressed it will be a decent bat regardless if it's hand made or CNC made.
This can be locked now ;)
Yes but what are the pro and cons mate.
Pressing is part and i stress only part of the performance of a bat.
As we used to be a talking badger forum now we seem to be quiet though i would start a topic about the virtues of both.
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Well, it is always diffcult to give pro's and con's
With a CnC machine, there is no uniqueness as once the design has been put in, it can be saved and others could use it.
However, if you can save it, once your current bat has gone, you can get an identical one made.
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Yes agree mate but what are the pro and cons of both.
CNC - Pros
All things being equal, if you want an exact shape/copy of a bat, you will get that EXACT shape in the exact dimensions.
Cons: I don't know how it works at each stage, but maybe not quite as exact in balance/weight ? - I'm sure you will let me know Dave.
Hand made - Pros
Maybe more opportunity for micro adjustments during the making to get the best out of the cleft and create a better balanced bat.
Cons: more opportunity for slightly uneven measurements/edges etc. ?
As you can see Dave, what is a strength could also be a source of weakness - would that be a fair assessment?
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Well, it is always diffcult to give pro's and con's
With a CnC machine, there is no uniqueness as once the design has been put in, it can be saved and others could use it.
However, if you can save it, once your current bat has gone, you can get an identical one made.
could you not argue however that there is no uniqueness to a mass produced bat out of any Indian or Pakistani companies? instead just a shape that they have produced so much it is embedded into there heads ?
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could you not argue however that there is no uniqueness to a mass produced bat out of any Indian or Pakistani companies? instead just a shape that they have produced so much it is embedded into there heads ?
I am more talking about custom made.
For instance, I go to B3 to get what I want as a unique bat for myself.
That will be saved and other players will also be able to get it so the unique bat I had could become mainstream.
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CNC - Pros
All things being equal, if you want an exact shape/copy of a bat, you will get that EXACT shape in the exact dimensions.
Cons: I don't know how it works at each stage, but maybe not quite as exact in balance/weight ? - I'm sure you will let me know Dave.
Hand made - Pros
Maybe more opportunity for micro adjustments during the making to get the best out of the cleft and create a better balanced bat.
Cons: more opportunity for slightly uneven measurements/edges etc. ?
As you can see Dave, what is a strength could also be a source of weakness - would that be a fair assessment?
But this is a good point look at your handmade Pro's
Why can't you have it adjusted off a machine so many people think (i know you don't mate) that bats fall of a conveyor belt with a CnC.
We have 2 craftsman and a very experienced one in Gavin Corns.
The magic is not made by the machine but by the designer then the batmaker because ultimately all the CnC does is the donkey work and shape and in our case within .2 of a ounce.
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Hand made
Pros
Traditional method
100% bat maker control throughout
Can make adjustments to original idea to meet needs (balance etc)
Cons
No two exactly the same (could also be a pro)
Easier to cock up
CNC
Pros
100% accuracy, can repeat shapes
Can see what you'll get before it's made (CAD)
Can tell dead weight of finished bat from cleft
Cons
Non traditional method
Harder to make slight adjustments midway through process
Machine cost more than traditional tools
Yes I'm scraping the barrel, some may be pros and cons depending on point of view.
Either way I love both methods for different reasons, one isn't truly "better" than the other. There can even be a hybrid of machine and hand made (e.g Dave's Trott bat).
Batmaking is a skilled art be it handmade, CNC made or a mixture of both.
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But this is a good point look at your handmade Pro's
Why can't you have it adjusted off a machine so many people think (i know you don't mate) that bats fall of a conveyor belt with a CnC.
We have 2 craftsman and a very experienced one in Gavin Corns.
The magic is not made by the machine but by the designer then the batmaker because ultimately all the CnC does is the donkey work and shape and in our case within .2 of a ounce.
I made the same point about adjustment so will clarify what I mean.
Hand made, if you want to take a bit of weight off you do it then and there however you see fit.
Machine made, if you want to take a bit of weight off you go into the CAD program, tweak the design and re-set new design into the machine.
Yes it can be done, so it's not really a con as such, just different to how people think it works.
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Not harder to make adjustments mate at all that the only error i see i can make a bat 1oz lighter by taking 1cm off the whole profile on the machine.
Basically you can always have alterations i grant where the only CNC where you can get this done custom made.
We have a batmaker who does my re balancing if i don't like it and re-balances if i need.
I like to call our method cross-over because we use both methods in tandom.
Consistency is our main tool
I do love both method this was not about B3 because i have seen both methods closely and had to correct a person who though he new about bats.
I have time for both and enjoy going to both kind of workshops.
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I made the same point about adjustment so will clarify what I mean.
Hand made, if you want to take a bit of weight off you do it then and there however you see fit.
Machine made, if you want to take a bit of weight off you go into the CAD program, tweak the design and re-set new design into the machine.
Yes it can be done, so it's not really a con as such, just different to how people think it works.
Why not just get the craftsman to do it at the end???
As i said a mix is best in my eyes tradition and tech.
As i told my friend i bet 95 per cent can not tell if it has been machine made or not.
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Pros and cons
Kinda irrelevant if at the end you get what you want
The pros and cons I would assume, would apply to cost and ease of manufacture?
The company I work for have two Cnc,s churning out furniture day in day out,,each piece to reasonable tolerances and in a fraction of the time a bench joiner would be able to complete the operation
If a bespoke piece is ordered, program's etc will have to be changed and costly changes made to manufacturing processes to allow for the changes needed,,pushing up costs accordingly.
I'm sure for shaping a cleft, removing the majority of excess timber and getting to a nearly finished shape and profile,, the use of a Cnc is perfect,(after you've forked out a bit of cash for one!)
As most of us know, the devil is in the detail,,and the finishing of the bat.
I've said this before,, yes there's room for all methods of shaping
And personally I don't give a monkeys,,as long as it's the bat I expect to receive
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But this is a good point look at your handmade Pro's
Why can't you have it adjusted off a machine so many people think (i know you don't mate) that bats fall of a conveyor belt with a CnC.
We have 2 craftsman and a very experienced one in Gavin Corns.
The magic is not made by the machine but by the designer then the batmaker because ultimately all the CnC does is the donkey work and shape and in our case within .2 of a ounce.
CNC by definition in manufacturing industry means - CAD and CAM, a complete automation of design and manufacturing.
A true CNC is not suitable for products made out of natural material like wood. Every natural material (cleft) has a different DNA and hence different characteristics. This uniqueness requires human (batmaker) intervention during every stage of making the final product for finer adjustments.
The point is a good batmaker will consistently produce bats which feel almost the same but will vary in shape little bit. A pure CNC process will produce bats of exact same shape but each will feel different. With handmade, all bats in a particular model will have slight variance in shape so that they feel the same which is what we all like to see.
But what you are describing is a semi CNC process where the finer adjustments are still made by hand by humans. So to me its still quite similar to hand made bat making process except that the initial shaping is done completely by machine.
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I would always have said that the main difference - and this an be pro or con either argument - is that the handmade bat is a piece of craftsmanship whereas the CNC made one is a piece more or less of engineering. As with so many thing, that's a bit of an oversimplification, but it sort of summarises how I see it.
It would be an interesting experiment if you had a bat you loved to get two copies made, one by the original bat maker and one by a CNC company, and see what the differences were as a result.
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CNC by definition in manufacturing industry means - CAD and CAM, a complete automation of design and manufacturing.
A true CNC is not suitable for products made out of natural material like wood. Every natural material (cleft) has a different DNA and hence different characteristics. This uniqueness requires human (batmaker) intervention during every stage of making the final product for finer adjustments.
The point is a good batmaker will consistently produce bats which feel almost the same but will vary in shape little bit. A pure CNC process will produce bats of exact same shape but each will feel different. With handmade, all bats in a particular model will have slight variance in shape so that they feel the same which is what we all like to see.
But what you are describing is a semi CNC process where the finer adjustments are still made by hand by humans. So to me its still quite similar to hand made bat making process except that the initial shaping is done completely by machine.
Good post mate
Adjustments are not always required infact the process has become better and better and we have various ways of measuring density so we can get within .2 of a ounce through the machine.
Consistancy is key both at trade and individual level.
Streaky has also developed a bat grabber where almost any shape can be pictures,mapped and then made to a exact weight
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I'd of thought that the machine would have it on speed, ability to duplicate a specific shape and precise shaping. The skill comes from the guy designing the bat and programming the machine. I do wonder what innovations we would loose if all bats were machine made and podshavers turned into operators, although I'm sure there will be some new innovations unique to the CAD / CNC way of doing things.
The people best positioned to tell us about the benefits and drawbacks of both are people who use both so maybe B3 could let us know what their experience is.
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To be fair, I have bats made by machine, hand and hybrid (copy lathe and hand finished). All have been made by reputable makers.
To look at, pick up, and in use, I can't discern whether one is better. I have my favourite, but all are bats that on any given Sunday I will use.
This must then come back to the manufacturing, speed of production, etc as I don't think it makes the slightest difference to the end product.
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Basically do you prefer GM or GN.
Both produce great bats.
GM are best for players who want continuity.
whereas trusting your batmaker to produce the best stick possible for you would be going going the GN route.
obviously the CNC bat process is the result of high demand...when did they start using CNC ?
Though i am probably wrong in the reason why they chose CNC route...or are GM just being lazy ;)
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Making a bat using a Cnc is not lazy
The bats still got to be finished off by hand
The machine is simply removing material to a pre set program.
Sorting the profiles,clefts,finishing,handles etc still all has to be done
Both the b3 bats and gm bats I've seen have been very very well made bats
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I'd also suggest that gn bats are not necessarily entirely handmade in India....
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CNC by definition in manufacturing industry means - CAD and CAM, a complete automation of design and manufacturing.
Not really.
CAD = Computer Aided Design
CAM = Computer Aided Manufacturing
CNC = Computer Numerically Controlled (machines)
The bat shape is designed in CAD software. This is where you customize the shape, edges, spine, profile etc.
The CAD "model" is then fed to CAM software, which automatically programs the right tool path etc. to machine a raw cleft into a bat's profile.
Finally the tool path (known as NC code) is fed into a CNC machine, which does the actually machining of the cleft.
This is followed by hand finishing (sanding, polishing, buffing.) Handles need to be fitted by hand as well.
There used to be plain NC machines that used punch cards to control the cutting tool's motion. This was a tedious and error-prone process. That was a long time ago, now tools are controlled through a computer.
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Not really.
CAD = Computer Aided Design
CAM = Computer Aided Manufacturing
CNC = Computer Numerically Controlled (machines)
The bat shape is designed in CAD software. This is where you customize the shape, edges, spine, profile etc.
The CAD "model" is then fed to CAM software, which automatically programs the right tool path etc. to machine a raw cleft into a bat's profile.
Finally the tool path (known as NC code) is fed into a CNC machine, which does the actually machining of the cleft.
This is followed by hand finishing (sanding, polishing, buffing.) Handles need to be fitted by hand as well.
There used to be plain NC machines that used punch cards to control the cutting tool's motion. This was a tedious and error-prone process. That was a long time ago, now tools are controlled through a computer.
In manufacturing, example making of a car door, there in no human intervention. Thats what i meant by complete automation. If you compare the car door manufacturing to bat making, the bat gets altered to some extent by human to make it "right" after the machine has finished working. But in case of car door, it will never be "finished" by human.
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There used to be plain NC machines that used punch cards to control the cutting tool's motion. This was a tedious and error-prone process. That was a long time ago, now tools are controlled through a computer.
CAD/CAM/CNC have been completely automated in car production for at least 20 years. Granted that the computers running the systems have got more powerful, but I was CAD/CAM/CNCing in 1993.
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CAD CAM is cheating anyway
write the code yourself
(secretly CAD CAM far easier but I didn't say that)