Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: tim2000s on September 23, 2014, 08:19:35 AM
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Following on from the discussion on the topic of the Affinity Carbine, I thought I'd raise the question again of Balance versus Weight.
I'm strongly of the opinion that a bat that weighs 10% or more heavier than something you are used to will have a detrimental effect on your batting (having tried to do this) unless you practice with it a lot, due to a number of factors. There is a school of thought that says one that weighs 10% more but is balanced such that it feels like it weighs the same when you pick it up will not affect your batting.
What are your thoughts and experiences related to this. I'm strongly in the camp that weight matters (but not necessarily a single ounce) and that big jumps (i.e. 10% or more cannot be countered by the bat being well balanced. Where do you sit?
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10% is a lot when you think about basic weight - a person normally using a 2lb 8oz bat would be moving up to a 2lb 12oz for example.
Suspect - though this might just be because its what I've done - that people moving down in weight can manage it rather better than people moving up.
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That's a fair point. I think I mean it in relation to receiving a bat from a maker that is heavier than you have requested, or being told that the pick up is equivalent to something "lighter", rather than going the other way.
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I completely agree, the pick up for me isn't really an issue, I use a 2.7 and I could pick a 2.10 bat up all day and it wouldn't hurt my wrists or arms. I think that when you have that extra 10% of weight or whatever it may be, the bat feels completely different when coming through the shot because it is heavier and I often lose my shape because of trying to compensate for this. I find that I lose my balance because the extra weight im not used to is pulling me. it may sound silly to some but I used 1 bat pretty much all of this season and that was including nets, then when I broke mine and had to use a mates 2.9 it was completely different even though it picked up well.
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Ok, so what about moving from a bat that weighs 2'10 but picks up like a 2'8 to one which weighs 2'10 but picks up them same or heavier than it weighs? I'm sure that would make a huge difference to someone's game. I'd say weight and pick up are equally important.
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Wouldn't the effect be cumulative? It may well feel like your normal weight to begin with, but over the course of an innings become less usable.
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My experience is that you find that you are actually late on shots from the start as your muscles are used to functioning with something that has less mass and therefore apply a certain amount of force unconsciously. This is why you have to get used to it. From then on, you'd also see a cumulative fatigue that was greater than you are used to.
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an extreme version. but.
an opener at our club had a 2.11 gm hero, which broke, and he had no time to replace it. only bat he deemed suitable for use was our skippers trott profile b3. it weighs 3.1!!! but has a tremedous pick up do to the profile.
after 15overs you could see he was actually struggle with his back lift. , and form 20vers on his only shot became a defense shot, when he was finally bowled.
he came off looking very tired, and complained that his arms had given up on him.
now it wasnt scientific, but we put it donw to the extra wait over the innings gradually tiring him down!
as his new bat is 2.12, and hes not had the issue since.
pick up helps for a few balls, but overall weight will tire you out eventually if two heavy.
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I have used a 3'4 bat and gone down to 2'7, with weights inbetween. My thoughts are that while pickup is important weight is probably more important over a period of time. With 2'12+ bats I found myself hitting with no backswing later in my innings. Simply the weight had tired my arms out and they couldn't lift the bat fully after a period of time. I was also late on shots, particularly indoors on quicker surfaces or against decent pace. I'm not weakling but I'm happy around the 2'7-2'10 mark. The variability is just under 10% of the total weight and is hugely dependent on pickup. I have a 2'9 that picks up like a dream and a 2'7 that has a lower middle. They both feel similar in the hands and that's what you want.
The test I use, is to play a cut shot without having to bring the right hand into the shot until the last second. If the right hand supports the cross bat shot significantly then the weight is too much to control. I also like the pickup index we sometimes use on here, to me it's the closest we have come to putting a number on pickup v weight.
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I'll be able to give an answer of sorts after a couple of winter net sessions. Usually use 2lb11-2lb13, my new net bat is 2lb15 and a quarter! Will see how that goes ;)
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My unscientific answer is the 10 percent increase in your normal bat weight would enable the ball to be hit further if the bat is swung at the same speed as your normal bat weight and there is no loss of timing but if a slower swing is used due to increase in bat weight it will not.
Therefore your normal lighter bat would hit the ball further due to your bat speed being faster.
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I used one of Chad's bats in the nets once. I believe it was a Bulldog with a slightly lowered Amplus profile at about 2lb 11oz - so still a high middle bat. Normally, I'd use a 2lb 8-9oz with a mid profile.
The pickup on the Bulldog was fantastic, fairly similar to my 2lb 9oz Laver. But in the end, I did start to tire due to the higher static weight. So yes, I believe dead weight is very important, so I am very pedantic about weight when I buy a bat (99% done online).
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I think the dead weight is very important and for me over rules pick up as a consideration. If I played classic straight shots it might be less of an issue, but being, at best, agricultural, well, draw your own conclusions!
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This is interesting...
I have ticked the "Weight is more important than balance in how the bat feels to me" box.
My experience is that I can use bats of different weights - but I have struggled with light bats and I can use bats up to about 2lbs 12 successfully. The problem I have is that I get elbow problems when I use a heavier bat.
I really struggle with, say, a 2lbs 8 bat as my timing is off and I don't feel like I have anything in my hands.
The concept that a bat "picks up lighter" I genuinely get, but the reality is that this so rarely actually happens (and is monumentally overused on this forum) that it has become irrelevant.
The one really noticeable occasion was when I tried a massive GM bat of Pete's - it was about 3lbs+ and when I picked it up, I thought I could use it no problem.
The reality was that I could just about hit a forward defensive shot (which went like a rocket) but was horribly late on everything else...
My view is that as everyone is different. Every bat will pick up differently for a different person - especially as different people hold the bat in different places on the handle too.
10% weight is a lot too.
For me, weight is more important than balance, but a beautifully balanced bat is helpful and can be used to accentuate your better shots, but is less important.
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10% is a fair amount, on a lightweight 2lb 8 bat that is another 4 ounces. On a 3lb bat, that becomes very nearly 5 ounces. Pick up is definitely important and will help alleviate things to some extent. But we are talking more like a couple of ounces at best. I can't see pickup being able to compensate for 4 to 5 ounces.
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The one really noticeable occasion was when I tried a massive GM bat of Pete's - it was about 3lbs+ and when I picked it up, I thought I could use it no problem.
The reality was that I could just about hit a forward defensive shot (which went like a rocket) but was horribly late on everything else...
I remember that bat too. It was beautifully balanced, but I couldn't time anything, even straight ones in the slot were difficult, just because my unconscious bat swing was used to something a lot lighter.
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I favour bat speed over bat weight, I like a bat no heavier than 2.9 and a high-mid middle so I can the bat through the ball quicker whether driving or pulling. Also you have lug a heavier bat up and down the wicket when running, no matter on the pick up your still carrying that weight. So for me the impact would be substantial.
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I feel I should reply here since it was probably my carbine review which sparked this discussion.
This is such a good question and I feel the answer really depends on the individual. I normally use 2.7 to 2.9 weight bats and at those light weights pick is generally not an issue. I have recently tried to use a 2"10 club bat and the pick up was so bad it felt like I could barely get my bat up in time to play at all much less uppercut lol.
My carbine weighs in at a hefty 2"13.3. It doesn't feel that weight in the hands...heavier than what I'm used to be sure but not so bad as to worry me. I did notice a few things when using it though.
1) my timing was off. It took about three overs to find the middle properly. To be expected as it was my first time using a bat that heavy
2) I hit a lot of balls with the toe end of the bat. Not sure why but it must be related to the timing thing
3) being a top order batsman and generally facing the quicks I try to play as late as possible. I often will make last second adjustments to my shots like opening the face or leaving the ball alone because of late swing. I found with the heavier bat I was i able to that as Welles normal. If I started to play a shot I was committed to it. This led me to be beaten outside off a few times to balls I would normally have left alone.
4) I had no real issues defending or scoring off the back foot and my late cuts and pull shots still seemed to go ok.
5) when I did middle a ball I found it travelled a lot better than I expected for the force I used. Not sure if that is related to the quality of the bat or just the fact that it is heavier so the ball automatically travels further
I didn't really find my arms getting overly tired during my innings but I could see how that might become a problem.
That's my experience so far. I need a couple more long innings to really get a feel for the difference. I won't lie though during those first three overs of mistimed drives I was very tempted to go back to what I was used to. I decided to stick it out though and the bat didn't fail me.
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The weight distribution determines how the bat feels so the actual bat weight doesn't tell you much. It's just the easiest measurement to take. That's why we keep hearing stuff like it's a 2lb 12 that feels like a 2.9.
When the bat is held ready but isn't moving the balance weight is the measurement that tells you how the bat feels. The best way to find this is to place a finger on the middle of the handle in between where your two gloves grip and put the toe of the bat on a scale. You'll get a reading of around 1.5lbs.
When you are hefting the bat or swinging for the ball the swing weight tells you how heavy the bat feels. This is a bit of a trickier measurement to take but it is a much better way of describing a bat than the dead weight.
Bit more info here http://www.crictech.com/pages/analysis-design (http://www.crictech.com/pages/analysis-design)
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I tried light bats (2:7 to 2:9) but value for shots was lacking. I switched to a heavy during a preseason net sessions because I did not want to damage nicer bats. My friends loved my " heavy"; I loved how hard the ball was hit; how the shots felt in my hands; how the shots sounded. When I hit with the bat, it makes a cracking sound which I just love!
So, Heavy bats for me. I prefer (fully dressed) 2-12/2-13 bats with high middles. Shot like a square cut against a quick can be a challenge - I have altogether stopped square cutting the ball. A well timed drive gets the ball to the boundary. Flicks, pulls , and occasional hooks work fine as well. It gives you confidence in your bat and you can focus on the batting and match better.
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I personally don't square cut much at all in general.... even when using light bats. So adjusting to the heavy bat wasn't that bad. I really didn't feel I needed to alter my shot selection much at all.
I'm still a little gob smacked over the tremendous rebound I was getting from check drives and little nudges and flicks. Is this just a heavy bat thing or more to do with the quality of the wood?
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Well, mine are quality heavy bats so, hopefully, it is not just the weight. :)
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As Chris Easby will be my witness I went from a 2-8oz bat to a 3-2oz bat early season and scored 108 not out with the 3-2oz bat and the week after 70 not out.
For some reason unknown to me now I changed back to my normal weight.
I can honestly tell you for me it is in the mind. If you have half decent hand eye co ordination it does not take long to adjust at all. I never go on dead weight unless buying blind.
My optimum weight who knows I it feels good use it till it breaks
I did not practising or anything it made me play straighter and the extra wood on the bat gave me confidence.
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I think in cases like DAve mentions aboe, it might also be releant to look at who you were playing. I'd wager if the opposition had had someone rapid you might have felt differently about the extra weight!
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The weight distribution determines how the bat feels so the actual bat weight doesn't tell you much. It's just the easiest measurement to take. That's why we keep hearing stuff like it's a 2lb 12 that feels like a 2.9.
When the bat is held ready but isn't moving the balance weight is the measurement that tells you how the bat feels. The best way to find this is to place a finger on the middle of the handle in between where your two gloves grip and put the toe of the bat on a scale. You'll get a reading of around 1.5lbs.
When you are hefting the bat or swinging for the ball the swing weight tells you how heavy the bat feels. This is a bit of a trickier measurement to take but it is a much better way of describing a bat than the dead weight.
Bit more info here [url]http://www.crictech.com/pages/analysis-design[/url] ([url]http://www.crictech.com/pages/analysis-design[/url])
really like this idea - it is a more scientific idea than we tried a few months ago...
As Chris Easby will be my witness I went from a 2-8oz bat to a 3-2oz bat early season and scored 108 not out with the 3-2oz bat and the week after 70 not out.
For some reason unknown to me now I changed back to my normal weight.
I can honestly tell you for me it is in the mind. If you have half decent hand eye co ordination it does not take long to adjust at all. I never go on dead weight unless buying blind.
My optimum weight who knows I it feels good use it till it breaks
I did not practising or anything it made me play straighter and the extra wood on the bat gave me confidence.
Dave that 3lbs bat of yours is another extraordinary piece of craftmanship
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Interesting point.
I used an M&H Original High 2.9 and a Newbery Navarone weighing 2.12 this season and thinking back the M&H is too light - I was through the shot too quickly for the wickets I play on (I'd like to think I pick up length pretty well) and found the heavier bat helped my timing and also felt my bat come down straighter (although that may just be my mind playing tricks)
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i had a very good season 4-5 years ago when using a big kanhuna weighing about 3.2lb scored a few runs felt very comfortable at the crease. i didnt play for a much until last season and used a bat weighing 2.12lb and had a much better season which could of just been down to playing more games but i have always liked to use a big bat
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I think in cases like DAve mentions aboe, it might also be releant to look at who you were playing. I'd wager if the opposition had had someone rapid you might have felt differently about the extra weight!
I used it against a quick West Inidan bowler brother of Nixon MCclean but known your point.
I tend to use lighter against better opposition but in truth think majority is in your head.
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I was swinging my lighter bats too fast...with a heavy bat, my timing is right. I play late, on backfoot, close to my body and for that heavy bat works very well. Having extra mass behind the ball helps. I don't think the benefit is psychological, it is very tangible - a flick landing at 40 yards v/s a flick landing a foot from the boundary is a big difference.
Interesting point.
I used an M&H Original High 2.9 and a Newbery Navarone weighing 2.12 this season and thinking back the M&H is too light - I was through the shot too quickly for the wickets I play on (I'd like to think I pick up length pretty well) and found the heavier bat helped my timing and also felt my bat come down straighter (although that may just be my mind playing tricks)
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No i agree the size of bat does make the ball go further because of the mass behind it but in the mind people think their a bigger impact ie slow on the ball.
Muscle memory can be re wrote.
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Interestingly I went from a 2.9 bat which I had used for a couple of years to a 2.14 bat. Once I had a few practice sessions with the new bat, I didn't notice the difference.
My game didn't suffer in any way - and in fact I was able to hit the ball further and score more runs.
It did help that my new bat was well balanced. I hesitate to say it picks up like a 2.10 bat - but the weight does feel evenly distributed from handle to the bottom of the blade and it moves through the air really well.
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@tim2000s great topic sorry it out of dat but through my workings with @The Doctor and b3 I think the truth is you should all things equal which there are not get 10 per cent extra power if the weight is distributed properly and once you have got used to it and start timings thing properly.
Naughty bringing old topics up but there many in the back catalogue I'm thinking of doing because there better than the sales struggle and boorish anti cricket posts currently
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Following on from the discussion on the topic of the Affinity Carbine, I thought I'd raise the question again of Balance versus Weight.
I'm strongly of the opinion that a bat that weighs 10% or more heavier than something you are used to will have a detrimental effect on your batting (having tried to do this) unless you practice with it a lot, due to a number of factors. There is a school of thought that says one that weighs 10% more but is balanced such that it feels like it weighs the same when you pick it up will not affect your batting.
What are your thoughts and experiences related to this. I'm strongly in the camp that weight matters (but not necessarily a single ounce) and that big jumps (i.e. 10% or more cannot be countered by the bat being well balanced. Where do you sit?
What's your experience with the XP80 been like? I use 2.7 normally but have one of these XP80 in 2.9, pick is great but it is still in the back of my mind that it's too heavy, will find out tomorrow if the rain holds off.
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@tim2000s great topic sorry it out of dat but through my workings with @The Doctor and b3 I think the truth is you should all things equal which there are not get 10 per cent extra power if the weight is distributed properly and once you have got used to it and start timings thing properly.
Naughty bringing old topics up but there many in the back catalogue I'm thinking of doing because there better than the sales struggle and boorish anti cricket posts currently
I think what you're saying concurs with my original point - if you practice with it and get used to it, then yes you're fine, but if you pick it up and try and use it in a one off, when you're used to something lighter, you'll experience a few issues.
What's your experience with the XP80 been like? I use 2.7 normally but have one of these XP80 in 2.9, pick is great but it is still in the back of my mind that it's too heavy, will find out tomorrow if the rain holds off.
My experience of my XP80 has been amazing, but then the weight isn't outside of my normal range and the pick up is astonishing! And it's like a trampoline, as proven by the 72m hit I made with it in my last match of the season!
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± 10% offset is fair ... all what matters is the balance, feel and pick-up.
Everyone player has a different muscle strength, ligament movements and hand-eye coordination. A bat 2.10 ± 4 oz that may feel like dream to one player who uses 2.10, may feel like a plonker in the hands of another batsman who also uses 2.10
It's all about the balance when you pick the bat and you know exactly where the sweet spot is, and how effectively you can make it meet the ball.
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For me the pick up myth etc. is all absolute rubbish. I've used enough bats over the years to know that I cannot and won't use a bat that's over 2lb 9ozs. I know that people will say "it's 2lb 11ozs but picks up like 2lb 8ozs" that's absolute tosh. For me actual weight is all that matters. I've played cricket long enough to know what I want in terms of the weight of my bat.
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I'd echo above
Old age, injuries,whiplash damage etc have seen me drop to 2.9 from 3lb in my youth
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I couldn't tell you the weight of any of my bats, but the weights are all slightly different. I do, however, like the pick-up of them.
I was using a Warbird last year that picked up fine for me but when weighed was 2.12!!!
So I now go purely on pick up, and don't even bother asking the weights.
Obviously, my best bat is the one with the sexiest stickers!
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I'd love to be able to be more flexible with bat weights but I just can't be. I have always used the same weight and even if a heavier bat does have a great balance, I just know that over the course of an innings I will feel that extra weight and it's not for me. Even if I see an amazing bat with fantastic balance and it weighs over 2lb 9ozs I'll dismiss it. Like everything with bats it's all personal choice, taste and experience.
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I'm not weight obsessed it's balance for me. Difficulty for me is I buy all my wood mail order. However it's just not difficult these days to get hand picked stuff.
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I have gone the other way slightly heavier as I'm getting older and rely less on hand speed and more on timing and with added weight feel I need to swing a tad slower.
Also find heavier bats make me play straighter with lesser moving parts but that's me.
I have various bats all between a medium and go with them.
Found once your timing and used to a bat a push can turn into four when a lighter bat it wouldn't. But as you say all about experience. I know the science behind it and for me it the trade off hand speed vs weight power. My game is suiting a heavier blade currently
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I'm not weight obsessed it's balance for me. Difficulty for me is I buy all my wood mail order. However it's just not difficult these days to get hand picked stuff.
That's my argument there hand picked stuff if picked in balance may suit the person hand picking but not the person it is for.
I guess it gives people some confidence but never been a fan of hand picked good sales stuff but it only as good as for the person who picks it
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That's my argument there hand picked stuff if picked in balance may suit the person hand picking but not the person it is for.
I guess it gives people some confidence but never been a fan of hand picked good sales stuff but it only as good as for the person who picks it
We like doing it, and there are a few customers who trust us almost blindly to choose bats for them, but we don't hang our hat on it. Whatever anyone claims, when you select bats it's mostly about looks.
Thought it was time for some honesty from a retailer given recent events :)
I might take this one step further and deliberately pick a couple of beautifully balanced top end bats with good Ping that look like slop when we visit one of the big manufacturers. Then run an experiment to see how quickly they sell.
Back to the original point I don't think minor weight variations are anything to worry about. My bats weigh between 2'9 and 2'12, I'm happy to use any of them at any time.
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Wait until you get old!
I can't pick a 2.11 bat up!
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We like doing it, and there are a few customers who trust us almost blindly to choose bats for them, but we don't hang our hat on it. Whatever anyone claims, when you select bats it's mostly about looks.
Thought it was time for some honesty from a retailer given recent events :)
I might take this one step further and deliberately pick a couple of beautifully balanced top end bats with good Ping that look like slop when we visit one of the big manufacturers. Then run an experiment to see how quickly they sell.
Back to the original point I don't think minor weight variations are anything to worry about. My bats weigh between 2'9 and 2'12, I'm happy to use any of them at any time.
Fair play at least you ain't waffled like some and been honest.
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Wait until you get old!
I can't pick a 2.11 bat up!
Got a ace lightweight here with your name on it
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Yeah Vitas!! wait till you get as old as some of us bits start falling off your body, it takes a week to get over gentle net practice and everything was better 'back in my day'
bats weights come up a lot on the forum. ive got a 2lb 9 nv2, and a 2lb 11 hellfire. Hellfire feels much lighter. middle is low on the nv2(on my bat anyway) and medium on the hellfire.far as im concerned that's the reason the pick up is different.
handpicking...totally agree with he above poster, it depends who is hand picking a bat. I had a hand picked bat this year break in half thru storm damage.Visable on the bat if you look closely enough.
so really that sums up hand picking.
a good retailer with knowledge of willow- can benefit us the consumer-absolutely...
:)
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i would hand pick, but i don't drive!
need to sort my life out!
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I can't swing anything over 2lb 7 and experience as taught I can't bat long with anything over 2lb 7 haven't got the muscles I had in my younger days
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What's classed as old? Lol.
I'm 33 years old, I use anything between 2.13 and 3.1. Latter weights for midweek and lms.
Saturday my 2.14 and a Bit bats are what I tend to score runs with.
I really can't use anything lighter, 2.12 bats even feel like toothpicks in my hands, and I just lose control as i tend to end up wafting far to hard/fast with them.
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Youre young buddy
:)
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I'm pushing 50 now, very old!
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I've given up weighing my bats.
I got a lovely Hunts Aura off Jake, and @wayward_hayward kindly bought one and posted it to me from one of his local shops.
When they arrived the dead weights were about the same. However the one from Jake had a thinner handle. I added a second grip to the one from Jake, while I reduced the handle of the other one. Their handles now feel virtually the same, and they both feel nice in my hands. But as I've added different grips, scuff sheets and tape etc their dead weights won't be the same any more. I don't know what they weigh any more to be honest, but would guess somewhere around 2lb12 in dead weigh (but both pick up like 1lb of Balsa wood...) ;)
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Does strength training help with going over the 10 % and use the bat with the same efficiency?
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What's classed as old? Lol.
I'm 33 years old, I use anything between 2.13 and 3.1. Latter weights for midweek and lms.
Saturday my 2.14 and a Bit bats are what I tend to score runs with.
I really can't use anything lighter, 2.12 bats even feel like toothpicks in my hands, and I just lose control as i tend to end up wafting far to hard/fast with them.
I'm 35 & use anything between 2.13 & 3.3 so similar to Chris. It has to be heavy and pick up like an absolute dog for me to think it's bad. Light bats feel like I'm batting with a tennis racket
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I'm 51 and trying to come down from 2.14 to 2.9 over winter . Probably regret it as last time I tried it I was getting caught square cutting to mid off I was that quick through shot
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I'm 51 and trying to come down from 2.14 to 2.9 over winter . Probably regret it as last time I tried it I was getting caught square cutting to mid off I was that quick through shot
So that weight reduction still is within 10% plus/minus shift.
The OP is not worried about weight if it's within 10% off-set.
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So that weight reduction still is within 10% plus/minus shift.
The OP is not worried about weight if it's within 10% off-set.
That's more than 10%.
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i would hand pick, but i don't drive!
need to sort my life out!
Alistair Cook seems to do ok just cutting and pulling
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I'm 51 and trying to come down from 2.14 to 2.9 over winter . Probably regret it as last time I tried it I was getting caught square cutting to mid off I was that quick through shot
You'll need to get used to it. going from 46 to 41 oz is nearly 11% change so you could well see issues.
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My unscientific answer is the 10 percent increase in your normal bat weight would enable the ball to be hit further if the bat is swung at the same speed as your normal bat weight and there is no loss of timing but if a slower swing is used due to increase in bat weight it will not.
Therefore your normal lighter bat would hit the ball further due to your bat speed being faster.
I fully agree with this. Have any of you read this scientific article?
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/cricket.html (http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/cricket.html)
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I fully agree with this. Have any of you read this scientific article?
[url]http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/cricket.html[/url] ([url]http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/cricket.html[/url])
No but will do my post was based on common sense.