Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Players => Topic started by: TangoWhiskey on October 09, 2014, 12:36:25 PM
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I figured we should have a topic to discuss the book with a warning to those who haven't had a chance to read it yet to give them a chance to avoid seeing anything juicy before reading it in the book. Please avoid mentioning any details from the book in any other thread. Thanks.
Discuss away.
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where are the spoilers?
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where are the spoilers?
Nobody's read the book to post any yet! :D
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Good rant at the start of chapter 24. Moan about Flowers handling of Finn, Anderson going for a world records and the Flower environment. Players meeting on page 3 of Chapter 24.
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Spoiler #1
Nothing was KP's fault. He is 100% innocent and right in all matters.
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Spoiler #1
Nothing was KP's fault. He is 100% innocent and right in all matters.
never doubted it lol
conveniently forgot all about text gate
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Nice touch that KP kept the texts from his and Prior's vc disagreement.
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What makes anyone think the press wouldn't have covered anything remotely spoilery or newsworthy in the last few days?!
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i'm sure i remember the texts to strauss were gone 'because sent messages are not kept on blackberrys'
i def read that at the time :)
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Best thing is that he has a photographic memory until 'Doos' gate
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Reading it backwards, now at textgate. Flower comes out like a control freak and broadly got banged to rights for the kp genius account. Piers Morgan tracked the account creation time to when bailey sitting in broads front room!
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Kp told flower and Giles about trotts issues much earlier. Last one Dayer after the ashes in the UK.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aLp2QsaOvcI
I miss this guy.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aLp2QsaOvcI
I miss this guy.
8.14 - Still love watching it.
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I'm about halfway through the book. KP isn't coming out in the best light in my opinion. Seems to think the whole world has done him wrong when all that happened was that he wanted to be treated differently than the rest of the team, something which obviously can't happen in international sport.
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Things were better under Strauss, he would tell Flower to stop being so anal. Cooky didn't really but did initially stamp out the on pitch bullying. Big Cheese gets a whole chapter and being VC went to his head according to humble KP.
Note to myself/admin - not sure how anal has made it through the swear filter!
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I think already next season 'the big cheese' is going to be the phrase to use at our club
ive got my own spot to change in in the dressing room so i'm first target to be 'le grange fromage'
but everyone has their own spot right? simply because ive changed in the same corner for years. :o :o
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KP's claims of bullying were supported by both Ponting and Graeme Smith.
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but everyone has their own spot right? simply because ive changed in the same corner for years. :o :o
I thought this was the case! Got my own bench at home or always a corner at away games, these are the rules!
The number of times I've had to tell an unsuspecting U13 to get off my bench when they're playing their first Sunday friendly, if they try to decline they find their kit has mysteriously moved anyway! :D
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KP's claims of bullying were supported by both Ponting and Graeme Smith.
I think that's a case of doing anything to stir up the present England dressing they can!
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Note to myself/admin - not sure how anal has made it through the swear filter!
As anal is not a swear word and is also not a sensitive word, it does not need to be in the filter. Next you'll be telling that Sloblock should be added... What a load of (No Swearing Please)... ;)
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I think anal should be allowed as long as everyone is comfortable with it.
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Personally I think we should be avoiding "Doos"...
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I think anal should be allowed as long as everyone is comfortable with it.
No pun intended...
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Spoiler #1
Nothing was KP's fault. He is 100% innocent and right in all matters.
Having just finished the book this is actually spot on!
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Other interestin points
KP considers Strauss to be a buddy, not what Strauss said though.
Matt Prior is the worst thing to ever happen to the England dressing room.
Cook has no blame for England's failings in Australia, he was only doing what Flower made him do.
Flower was never any good for the England team - getting to number 1 in the world papered over the cracks he caused.
Piers Morgan is a nice bloke - I decided at that point I couldbt beleive a word written in this book!!
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Yeah I have to admit the book was distinctly average. Shame there wasn't more cricket in it, 90% of the book is just going on about how Flower is an idiot and Prior is a douche with a penchant for cheese. I for one would have preferred to read what was going through his head when he was hitting any one of his outstanding knocks.
At least it was less dull than Strauss' book though...
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Strauss book was boring, lucky I paid £1.99 for it on Kindle.
KP's get's more boring the further you go back in time. He skirted round winning the Ashes in Aus in about 2 pages. It was at this point his love affair with Prior headed south. It does seem to be getting less interesting the further you go back in history. Certainly pre-2012 seems almost boring in comparison. Textgate seems to cover 3 chapters.
Only interesting bit I have seen recently is his discussion on leaving Notts/Hants. Notts his contract was up and his best mate was leaving. Gallian threw his kit out of the pavilion because, according to KP, he didn't like him leaving. Hants he didnt play enough and was effectively loaned out to Surrey.
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I paid the full price for Straussy's book and it was monumentaly boring
by the jist of the book it's a score settling read from his point of view.It beggars belief thou that any true England fan would agree '95 per cent of what Flower did was useless'. This is the coach who lead us to move success than we have ever know.God knows supporting England, as many of us have,thru the 80's and 90's was torture.
In a couple of weeks it will blow over and England will finally move forward from the whole thing.
I do think,however,the managent could of done move over the KP genius account as I think it's likely one or all of Broad,Anderson,Bresnan is probably lying about their involvement in it
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I imagine Broad in particular is squirming at the book.
I also think it shows how difficult it is to handle talents like KP/Flintoff and the baggage that comes with them. I'm sure in many cases Flower/Strauss/Cook will ask what more they can do without setting one rule for one and a different rule for another.
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I imagine Broad in particular is squirming at the book.
I also think it shows how difficult it is to handle talents like KP/Flintoff and the baggage that comes with them. I'm sure in many cases Flower/Strauss/Cook will ask what more they can do without setting one rule for one and a different rule for another.
Yeah, most of KP's main gripes even as written in the book seem to be that he is upset because he wasn't treated differently to other people. Weird how he thought that would make him look good in the book, obviously he doesnt see it that way.
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opps sorry about that
if you look back thru English cricket's history, we have had many players who had exceptional ability, almost all of them fitted in the the teams requirements. Gower had a bust up with Gooch that did cost him the last 2 years of his career but most have not behaved like KP
It is also true that back them the managment would of been more flexible...such as Lamb and Co going out to Casino's late at night and pulling hamstrings on the walk back at 3am!!
KP I think did want to be treated differently, and there is only so much you can grant the guy. He was good for us, but not that good
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The overall feeling I get from the book is that KP wanted someone to say to him "You are special, you are the most important" and then wanted to be treated as though this was the case, i.e. having allowances made because he was different.
I think the key thing I've taken so far is that Vaughan and Fletcher managed to make him feel like this without having to actually do anything about his demands, whereas Moores, Flower and Strauss took a different tack with him.
It all seems to come back down to the discussion we've had many times over, which is about man management and Vaughan being better at it than subsequent captains.
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Vaughan does admit he had KP at the start of his international career when he was a bit easier to deal with and the IPL to deal with.
I really am torn on this book and its contents. I feel that there has to be an element of truth to what KP is saying as without it he opens himself up for libel. I also read some parts of it and cringe at his behaviour. He cant remember exactly what was texted to the SA team members but retained a text message convo for a few people including Prior which he quotes verbatim in the book.
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One thing i am pretty sure on his just how odd an organisation the ECB is. Their handling of the fall out from the book has been comical. A lot of the stuff leaked about KP during his team with England was pretty poor too. KP could wind up an empty room but i can see why he'd be wary of the ECB and its staff if they were doing that. Just seems they tried to goad KP into doing something stupid and having a reason to call it quits with him. Which is odd really because youd have thought 2012 was exactly that.
I do love a conspiracy theory but who was it England were due to play that Winter, India in India. KP is a big crowd pleaser and just wonder how much "pressure" those lovely chaps at the BCCI put on the ECB to have him back in the team.
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One thing i am pretty sure on his just how odd an organisation the ECB is. Their handling of the fall out from the book has been comical. A lot of the stuff leaked about KP during his team with England was pretty poor too. KP could wind up an empty room but i can see why he'd be wary of the ECB and its staff if they were doing that. Just seems they tried to goad KP into doing something stupid and having a reason to call it quits with him. Which is odd really because youd have thought 2012 was exactly that.
I agree with this and unfortunately feel it adds weight to KPs - Flower wanted me out when he took over as coach. The conversation about Taylor was between him and Coach and then it's in the news on the Monday - how did that get out! The dossier with his list of misdemeanors being "leaked" is just another example of this. I'm still not going to pass judgement until the ECB have had their say but it just looks like a number poor decisions has been made throughout all of this by thinking more about managing a situation and damage control rather than thinking about the fans.
I liken the situation to that of Mourinho and Christiano at Real Madrid. They famously didn't get on (although the said they did in public) and they both have egos as big as a house but punters don't fork out £50 a match to watch Mourinho manage so the decision was easy. For the ECB it seems that, to save face, it was better to get rid of the player rather than go down that road again.
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I think Flower comes out of the book pretty badly. Given the ECB still employ him, I would be having a debrief with him asap and going over each allegation. Seems like he leaked stuff to the press and told some massive porkies about KP and his injuries. If the guy has been behaving in an "unethical" (can't think of a better word) way then he shouldn't be in a job. Things are never that black and white but I imagine the ECB haven't responded because some or most of the KP book is in fact true.
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Probably couldn't get a more ethical man than Andy Flower.
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Probably couldn't get a more ethical man than Andy Flower.
Flower is being shown up, the ECB are being shown up and it's about time. The guy took a good team to the top but this all proves he wasn't quite the man manger we were led to believe.
Given it's a pretty big part of being a coach/manager then I'd say he failed and shouldn't be kept on in his 'jobs for the boys' role.
Not saying KP hasn't made some of it up etc, just feels like we have a very stale ECB who wiled other their own even though they could be wrong.
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stop it Aidey, I don't have any more prizes.
Have a read of this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/21359274 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/21359274)
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Flower stood up to Robert Mugabe so i don't think his ethics can be questioned as a man. To me his professionalism can be questioned as a coach as if these private conversations between player and coach get straight into the media time and time again then Flower is part of that. That said it doesn't mean it was Flower who was actually leaking it but then again the ECB has to ask why it kept happening?
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I think Professionalism is a better word than ethical, I did say I was searching for the right term! Flower has indeed done some very brave things but yes if he was leaking stuff to the press then it lacks professionalism.
I guess it's his man management skills that seem to be the issue. I haven't read backwards to the Moores era but I imagine the alleged mis-management and team regime started with Moores, and Flower kept it going.
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I guess it's his man management skills that seem to be the issue. I haven't read backwards to the Moores era but I imagine the alleged mis-management and team regime started with Moores, and Flower kept it going.
Spot on mate, well that's saved you a couple of chapters! ;)
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I dont think KP says that Moores was a bad man manager but just a bit too full on and perhaps tried to over manage people if anything
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One of the key themes in the book is his dis-satisfaction with both how Moores and Flowers had a tendency to micro manage players. From his perspective, this was distinctly different to Fletcher who encouraged personal responsibility. I am sure we all respond differently to different styles of management.
In some respects I enjoyed the book. It started off as an interesting read though too many chapters repetitive and saying the same thing as the chapter before.
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https://twitter.com/fwildecricket/status/522435759111159808
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https://twitter.com/fwildecricket/status/522435759111159808
Makes a good point doesn't he.
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https://twitter.com/fwildecricket/status/522435759111159808
totally agree. KP is a long way from being innocent but I doubt anybody can feel comfortable that the ECB/Flower were even handed. The KP Genius twitter account is the most glaring example. How they viewed personal texts and a public twitter account as not the same kind of crime is beyond me.
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totally agree. KP is a long way from being innocent but I doubt anybody can feel comfortable that the ECB/Flower were even handed. The KP Genius twitter account is the most glaring example. How they viewed personal texts and a public twitter account as not the same kind of crime is beyond me.
In my eyes the KP genius account was a far worse crime. In the past I've been less than complimentary to a colleague/boss in a private conversation but I'd never be involved in the group ridicule of someone, regardless whether or not they were an a(r)se.
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Most companies make you sign an agreement about social media these days, which of the ones I've seen involvement in such a thing like the KP Genius account would amount to breaking that agreement.
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I agree that the twitter account was far worse than text gate. Texts are in theory (unless leaked of course) private.. twitter just isn't.
ECB are just getting away with it time and time again, they will with all this too as people will just sweep it under the carpet.
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Depends what was said in these texts. KP has never showed them to the ECB, so he could well have been giving the Saffa's inside information, who knows. Both as bad as each other, KP should have shown the ECB the texts. The only reason he kept them quiet is because they would have ended his career in England in my opinion.
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Depends what was said in these texts. KP has never showed them to the ECB, so he could well have been giving the Saffa's inside information, who knows. Both as bad as each other, KP should have shown the ECB the texts. The only reason he kept them quiet is because they would have ended his career in England in my opinion.
to be fair to KP as he says in his book with all the research, video footage and analysis plus one of the best bowling attacks in world cricket the Saffers didnt really need an input from KP to work out how to get English batsmen out. Why would he have bothered? Far more logical that all he did was tell his mates he thought his captain was a ****
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The thing I find most interesting reading the book is that KP felt that the dressing room and Andy Flower were against him, in his view because he participated in the IPL and got bid for in the Auctions to the tune of $1.5mn and none of the other England players got a bid.
He talks a lot about his friendships with other IPL internationals and how he used to keep in contact with them, even during England duty.
What he doesn't bother with is any introspection as to why KPGenius might have existed. It was just because he was an IPL superstar. There seems to be an incredibly limited amount of self awareness with regard to the impact that he might have on the dressing room and how his behaviour might come across.
Whilst I don't doubt that there were certain factions in the ECB and Dressing room that really weren't helpful, I do wonder quite how nihilistic KP himself sometimes was. Let's face it, generally there isn't smoke without fire, so KPGenius came from somewhere, as did the behaviour he felt was directed at him.
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to be fair to KP as he says in his book with all the research, video footage and analysis plus one of the best bowling attacks in world cricket the Saffers didnt really need an input from KP to work out how to get English batsmen out. Why would he have bothered? Far more logical that all he did was tell his mates he thought his captain was a ****
If that's the case, why wouldn't he show the texts?
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If that's the case, why wouldn't he show the texts?
Probably the same reasons why broad and co wouldn't ever admit to the bullying using Twitter.
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Got it last week for £10 at Waterstones, haven't read it yet, but from the stuff I've seen on twitter it should be a good read!
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It's a personal tyrade against Andy Flower. Flower is the only constant in the book. He does mention the bullying culture but I'm not sure bowlers getting upset at mis-fields really constitutes bullying. Yes in an ideal world encouragement and support should be the order of the day on the field, but anybody who has played the game knows frustration does come into play.
He over dramatises occassions when he has been wronged (@KPGenius) and plays down the occassions when he was out of line (Textgate) He suggests that English Cricket is narrow minded when it comes to the IPL, Big Bash etc and he is probably right about that. English folks are generally narrow minded when it comes to sport (If you disagree consider how many English players are currently playing sport abroad and Vice-Versa)
Most of all though it is disappointing in the fact that KP has played with and against the best players in world cricket, at the best grounds on the biggest occassions and he has forgotten to give us the 'behind-the-scenes' cricket stuff that the cricket fans wanted. The best part of the entire book in my opinion is his exchange with Raul Dravid in which Dravid gives him advice on playing left-arm spin.
More cricket less 'He said, She said' next time please Kevin.