Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Latest Matches => Topic started by: ppccopener on March 16, 2015, 04:51:32 PM
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returning home to Australia and prob at the end of his sell by date
With Ramprakash and Thorpe involved in some way with England's coaching who would the forum like to see be our new bowling coach?
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Darren Gough
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A person a lot of people speak highly of... Steffan Jones
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Brett Lee
Alan Donald
Otis Gibson
Javagal Srinath
Ian Pont
Craig White
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Add to @FattusCattus' list - Graeme Welch and Richard Johnson
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looks like he is leaving to become Melbourne Renegades Head Coach
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/story/851209.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/story/851209.html)
for me sack off Moores appoint Gillespie and you already have one there - if you really need a separate one then i would love to see Brett Lee given a go
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Gillespie - head
Ponting - batting
Lee - bowling
Colly - fielding
Warne - spin
done
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Gillespie has said he wouldn't be interested in an England coaching role at the moment I believe, more than happy at Yorkshire.
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Ian Pont or Steffan Jones seem to be the bowling Guru's on twitter, why not give them a go?
Gough might be a ODI option but there is a difference between having the ability as a player and transferring those skills to others.
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Gillespie has said he wouldn't be interested in an England coaching role at the moment I believe, more than happy at Yorkshire.
no one would refuse a dam good pay day and total control of selection etc.
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Echo that Procricketer, Moores hasn't worked out has he?
it's all very well saying 'not interested' out of respect for someone in the job, it's a bit different if the job became available and yes , ''here's 250 grand a year''
As for those, and yes some on this forum,who don't want to have an Aussie in charge-wake up and smell the roses..we(England) need some major changes and the nationality of the coach should be irrelevant
the boss of Yorkshire CC has just taken over the ECB top job, would that be a connection with Gillespie for England down the line?
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While i dont normally like talking about coaches based on their playing skills, an international bowling coach should be more of a sounding board than actual coach. So which intelligent bowlers have we had in recent years?
Richard Johnson could be a good shout, although he only olayed a bit for England.
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1 down a few more to go just need the head coach to go now as well but I think he needs to be pushed, stats will tell him he needs to stay no doubt.
Batting coaches need a good look in mirror as well, both elements of our game were poor in WC and have been for many years but the golf between other nations and ours is vast. Even the minnows play or attempt to play a better brand and there coaches are probably part time in some cases.
Gillespie is a great shout as head coach, could never see Ponting working for us but would be class as would say Lara, no idea if either has relevant coaching badges etc but pure legends of the game that both played attacking cricket before it was the norm.
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1 down a few more to go just need the head coach to go now as well but I think he needs to be pushed, stats will tell him he needs to stay no doubt.
Batting coaches need a good look in mirror as well, both elements of our game were poor in WC and have been for many years but the golf between other nations and ours is vast. Even the minnows play or attempt to play a better brand and there coaches are probably part time in some cases.
Gillespie is a great shout as head coach, could never see Ponting working for us but would be class as would say Lara, no idea if either has relevant coaching badges etc but pure legends of the game that both played attacking cricket before it was the norm.
is holding a badge relevant?? surely it's about their knowledge and ability rather than what piece of qualification paper they hold?? We know from every walk of life that those that hold the qualifications don't always make the best choices. Sometimes it's the ones who know their stuff but don't follow the academic path?
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Don't think Lara has ever done any coaching, so he wouldnt be a realistic candidate.
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Although Saker did a good job when he first came in the last year or so our bowlers have handled poorly and have been given poor plans to work to. I think it is a good time for him to move on and could well have been forced to leave following the world cup debacle. I would like to see Graeme Welch given the opportunity, he's done a remarkable job coaching bowlers in county cricket. If not Welch then maybe Donald or Gibson would be interested and I would be happy with either of those.
I wouldn't approach Gough. I hear him on TalkSPORT regularly and he has some strange and inconsistent opinions. Good players do not always make the best coaches.
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Brett Lee
Alan Donald
Otis Gibson
Javagal Srinath
Ian Pont
Craig White
Hands off, he's staying with us
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Hands off, he's staying with us
How about we get Alan Donald and keep Jade Dernbach, can't say fairer than that ;)
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How about we get Alan Donald and keep Jade Dernbach, can't say fairer than that ;)
counteroffer: keep Dernbach and feel free never to mention he was ever South African :(
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counteroffer: keep Dernbach and feel free never to mention he was ever South African :(
Fine we'll settle on that. He has an Italian passport so we can deny he's English ;)
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Fine we'll settle on that. He has an Italian passport so we can deny he's English ;)
Works for me :D
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Have my feelings that a good bowling coach could make Jade Dernbach into a seriously good limited overs bowler in all fairness... *takes shelter*
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Ian Pont or Steffan Jones seem to be the bowling Guru's on twitter, why not give them a go?
Because so much good bowling is done on Twitter...
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I Think half the problem is that they are trying to "coach" the bowlers. Surely if they are good enough for England the coaches job is done. Its a tactician and manager the team need. Most bowlers grow up with a personnel mentor like Finn with Fraser or Warne with Jenner, if they need technical help those are the people who know their game who should help. Same with the batting Gooch with Cook ect. Give someone a job title and they will try and fill it and interfere just to justify the title. Same with stuff like Clubmark, put it in place and suddenly it requires a whole army of development officers to police it, who would be better employed coaching in schools. These organisations just seem to exist to feed themselves and justify their positions just take a look at the legal profession.
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Because so much good bowling is done on Twitter...
You miss my point. If you talk a good game, then why not put your money where your mouth is? No point scoring easy points on twitter about Englands bowling, if you aren't prepared to apply for the job? I hope both apply btw - our bowlers need some help!
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I can't see a backroom team of Gillespie, Ponting, Warne and Brett Lee. Jesus christ, this is England we are talking about. Can you imagine rocking up to an Ashes series with that lot on the England balcony? I know it doesn't matter where they are from on paper but get real!
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I can't see a backroom team of Gillespie, Ponting, Warne and Brett Lee. Jesus christ, this is England we are talking about. Can you imagine rocking up to an Ashes series with that lot on the England balcony? I know it doesn't matter where they are from on paper but get real!
Your right, best sticking with the best coach of his generation and losing meekly because he's english.
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http://dennisdoescricket.com/david-saker-joins-the-renegades/ (http://dennisdoescricket.com/david-saker-joins-the-renegades/)
:D
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Put Martin Moxon in charge of the whole bloody shower
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Your right, best sticking with the best coach of his generation and losing meekly because he's english.
I'm not saying no to one or two of them, but can you honestly see the whole England back room staff being Australian? I think Dizzy would be a great choice, I just can't see the Home balcony at Lords being manned by 5 aussies.
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I can't see a backroom team of Gillespie, Ponting, Warne and Brett Lee. Jesus christ, this is England we are talking about. Can you imagine rocking up to an Ashes series with that lot on the England balcony? I know it doesn't matter where they are from on paper but get real!
Fully agree, I've argued this point too! We might as well put up the white flag, can you imagine the Aussies having an English coach and staff for the Ashes.....it would never ever happen. There are plenty of homebased coaches/ Ex pros to choose from, we don't need to sell our soul to the Aussies.
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I'm not saying no to one or two of them, but can you honestly see the whole England back room staff being Australian? I think Dizzy would be a great choice, I just can't see the Home balcony at Lords being manned by 5 aussies.
why?
surely you want the best possible person doing each discipline ?? given the age group of likely coaches and the fact that they come from a time when aus were by far the best... stands to reason most will be australian. it's coaching, not representing your country.
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why?
surely you want the best possible person doing each discipline ?? given the age group of likely coaches and the fact that they come from a time when aus were by far the best... stands to reason most will be australian. it's coaching, not representing your country.
It is representing your country, it's preparing and sending your team out to do battle (in a sporting sense) against another countries best. It's pitting your country's cricketing prowess against your opponents prowess, its England v Australia, it's not a business. It's about pride, getting the most out of the ability you have. If all we do is give up and ask our biggest cricketing rivals to manage our national team for us, we might as well crawl back under our rock and be done with it. My best mates Australian, I've lived and played in Australia, if we hand them the keys to our national team we will be a laughing stock forevermore and god help the next touring side in Aus, they will be ripped to shreds. It's akin to asking Napoleon to take charge of our Navy!
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it's not a business.
and in one four word sentence you miss the whole point now of sport, Team England, ECB :)
It's all about business!!
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Fully agree, I've argued this point too! We might as well put up the white flag, can you imagine the Aussies having an English coach and staff for the Ashes.....it would never ever happen. There are plenty of homebased coaches/ Ex pros to choose from, we don't need to sell our soul to the Aussies.
There is more to cricket than just Ashes, seems like a point lost and hence the performance of England in WC and other events. Its doesn't matter where 1 or 2 or all of the staff are from, no one will care if you make a team that is world beater in all formats and consistently over time.
If you do well in Ashes but lose everything else, well you are there already. Just my 2 cents.
All the argument about English coach: Feels like India trying to pick a coach 10 years ago
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There is more to cricket than just Ashes, seems like a point lost and hence the performance of England in WC and other events. Its doesn't matter where 1 or 2 or all of the staff are from, no one will care if you make a team that is world beater in all formats and consistently over time.
If you do well in Ashes but lose everything else, well you are there already. Just my 2 cents.
All the argument about English coach: Feels like India trying to pick a coach 10 years ago
I dunno, I'd take winning the ashes every time and losing the rest :)
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There is more to cricket than just Ashes, seems like a point lost and hence the performance of England in WC and other events. Its doesn't matter where 1 or 2 or all of the staff are from, no one will care if you make a team that is world beater in all formats and consistently over time.
If you do well in Ashes but lose everything else, well you are there already. Just my 2 cents.
All the argument about English coach: Feels like India trying to pick a coach 10 years ago
Would India appoint a Pakistan coach?
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Would India appoint a Pakistan coach?
I would like to see them do so, Consider Wasim Akram as bowling coach? Yes, and he has been employed with Indian Broadcasters as well as IPL even when the players were banned. Do they have any world classes coaches at the moment that could be considered? No. If they had someone of Gary Kirsten or similar calibre then I don't see why me as general public would object to that. If all of them were Pakistani and India's bowling was the best in the world because of them then yes why not, big picture we still beat Pakistan and took their best talent from them, Win Win
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and in one four word sentence you miss the whole point now of sport, Team England, ECB :)
It's all about business!!
I'm fully aware of the economics behind professional sport, but that doesn't mean we have to completely sell our soul. Lets keep some pride, the ECB just need to find the right English/Welsh coach, which they haven't done so far.
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I'm fully aware of the economics behind professional sport, but that doesn't mean we have to completely sell our soul. Lets keep some pride, the ECB just need to find the right English/Welsh coach, which they haven't done so far.
Then you will realise that they will always do what is best for the bank balance, not for the sport. IF the best person to lead/coach is australian, pink, black, asian, irish then who gives a crap. put the best man/woman in the job based on their ability not quals or if they are yes men.
and pro sport has no soul now. That has long gone.
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I would like to see them do so, Consider Wasim Akram as bowling coach? Yes, and he has been employed with Indian Broadcasters as well as IPL even when the players were banned. Do they have any world classes coaches at the moment that could be considered? No. If they had someone of Gary Kirsten or similar calibre then I don't see why me as general public would object to that. If all of them were Pakistani and India's bowling was the best in the world because of them then yes why not, big picture we still beat Pakistan and took their best talent from them, Win Win
Because we may as well pack up international sport and just play County/State/IPL cricket, where we can pick which ever nationality we want. Surely the whole original point of International sport is to pit one nation against another, not a group of people because it suits and can be financially afforded.
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Because we may as well pack up international sport and just play County/State/IPL cricket, where we can pick which ever nationality we want. Surely the whole original point of International sport is to pit one nation against another, not a group of people because it suits and can be financially afforded.
remind me where duncan fletcher came from? Remind me where Saker or Otis Gibson came from?
I actually would love to see each county ONLY EVER employ it's own nationality as that would be country vs country BUT that's not how it works. Employ the best person for the job, in this case.. Giles vs Gillespie..... Ponting vs Ramprekash.... Lee vs harmisson... Warne vs Such
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Because we may as well pack up international sport and just play County/State/IPL cricket, where we can pick which ever nationality we want. Surely the whole original point of International sport is to pit one nation against another, not a group of people because it suits and can be financially afforded.
IPL was an example to show that yes someone from Pakistan can get work in India as a coach.
Players play the sport, coaches coach. From bottom up majority of your coaches are local (nation wise), in India almost all of the coaches below the national team are Indians but when it comes to a team that is going to represent your country on the world stage you want the best players, best staff & best coaches. At least all our players are Indian since you bring up country vs country. You seem to stuck on english coaches, if you had a coach that was that good he would already have been snapped up by ECB, then either his career ruined or moved so he could be working for some other country.
Get the best Wo/Man to do the job so he could take players from your country and make them winners, doesn't matter where that Wo/Man comes from because its your country winning by getting more fans, people playing and getting interested in the sport.
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No body seems to have taken into consideration that maybe Gillespie, Lee, Ponting & Warne may not want these jobs, it's a lot of ball-ache compared to a bit of commentary and some IPL Coaching, plus chances are, they feel the same and wouldn't want to help out the old enemy. Heaven Forbid they may actually be enjoying watching Australia shaft us at every oppurtunity and not want to change that!
It's not like we get to Cherry-pick whoever we want to come and coach England, we have to pick the best from whatever / whoever may be available or even want the job(s)
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No body seems to have taken into consideration that maybe Gillespie, Lee, Ponting & Warne may not want these jobs, it's a lot of ball-ache compared to a bit of commentary and some IPL Coaching, plus chances are, they feel the same and wouldn't want to help out the old enemy. Heaven Forbid they may actually be enjoying watching Australia shaft us at every oppurtunity and not want to change that!
It's not like we get to Cherry-pick whoever we want to come and coach England, we have to pick the best from whatever / whoever may be available or even want the job(s)
nobody is saying they would want it, just that people of their ilk should be asked. I have no doubt none/many of them would be interested for various reasons but that shouldn't stop the ECB from pursuing the best and finding out why they don't want the job.. Is it because of the schedule?? (if so, take away the ODI/T20 roles).. is it because they won't have real control over things (ie, their team is picked for them by random selectors?? (if so, get rid of them, make a scouting network reporting to the head coach and let them make all the decisions) etc etc
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remind me where duncan fletcher came from? Remind me where Saker or Otis Gibson came from?
I actually would love to see each county ONLY EVER employ it's own nationality as that would be country vs country BUT that's not how it works. Employ the best person for the job, in this case.. Giles vs Gillespie..... Ponting vs Ramprekash.... Lee vs harmisson... Warne vs Such
We agree, so would I :)
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The other thing about the bowling/batting coaches jobs is do we need a permanent coach in each role?. By this I mean that after an initial transfer of knowledge, how useful is that coach 2/3/4 years down the line. Would England be better served by putting coaches on maybe a 2 year contract at most and bringing in new faces on a regular basis to stop the players going stale? ie. long enough to avoid getting conflicting advice but short enough to bring fresh ideas into the setup and continue the players education.
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The other thing about the bowling/batting coaches jobs is do we need a permanent coach in each role?. By this I mean that after an initial transfer of knowledge, how useful is that coach 2/3/4 years down the line. Would England be better served by putting coaches on maybe a 2 year contract at most and bringing in new faces on a regular basis to stop the players going stale? ie. long enough to avoid getting conflicting advice but short enough to bring fresh ideas into the setup and continue the players education.
this goes back to what I said earlier in the piece.. Do England really need coaches at all? Shouldn't players get coaching from their counties and if picked for england they mainly just need managing more than actual coaching? As you say, maybe getting people in short term if a player needs something specific would work more than having a single dedicated year round coach?
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this goes back to what I said earlier in the piece.. Do England really need coaches at all? Shouldn't players get coaching from their counties and if picked for england they mainly just need managing more than actual coaching? As you say, maybe getting people in short term if a player needs something specific would work more than having a single dedicated year round coach?
I think you need somebody to do some of the thinking for them and to be a sounding board for issues. Bowlers should be the finished article when they play for England but I don't think it means they can just rock up and get on with it. Bowling plans need to be hatched for the oppo batters, if they play abroad somebody has to research the conditions, players do develop technical flaws and develop specific issues ie. drop in pace. This does need management and coaching. Whether it needs coaching from the same person for 4 years and does it get less helpful over time, is my question.
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I think you need somebody to do some of the thinking for them and to be a sounding board for issues. Bowlers should be the finished article when they play for England but I don't think it means they can just rock up and get on with it. Bowling plans need to be hatched for the oppo batters, if they play abroad somebody has to research the conditions, players do develop technical flaws and develop specific issues ie. drop in pace. This does need management and coaching. Whether it needs coaching from the same person for 4 years and does it get less helpful over time, is my question.
isn't this what analysts are for?
also, if they develop a flaw.. let's say like finn... send them back to their county for the coaching that is required?? if it's a flaw then they probably shouldn't be playing for England anyway until it's sorted?
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isn't this what analysts are for?
also, if they develop a flaw.. let's say like finn... send them back to their county for the coaching that is required?? if it's a flaw then they probably shouldn't be playing for England anyway until it's sorted?
Don't think Stuart Broad will be taking advice on bowling from his Sister anytime soon lol
Going back to the counties assumes the county coach knows anything about bowling. Even if he does, he may not have the experience of the England Bowling Coach or the knowledge of what's required at International level.
The only way having no coach would work is if the FC setup was a much higher standard ie. 6-8 teams . Then the standard would be similar to test match level and the coaches would be better (hopefully) at FC level, by this I mean more use to working with international players on a daily basis.
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Also, just using your specific county coach doesn't really help if you delevop a slight technical flaw half way through a long overseas tour which needs rectifying.
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Broads Sister is no longer with the ECB.
Analysts are information providers, coaches and players dictate strategy and tactics.
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IPL was an example to show that yes someone from Pakistan can get work in India as a coach.
Players play the sport, coaches coach. From bottom up majority of your coaches are local (nation wise), in India almost all of the coaches below the national team are Indians but when it comes to a team that is going to represent your country on the world stage you want the best players, best staff & best coaches. At least all our players are Indian since you bring up country vs country. You seem to stuck on english coaches, if you had a coach that was that good he would already have been snapped up by ECB, then either his career ruined or moved so he could be working for some other country.
Get the best Wo/Man to do the job so he could take players from your country and make them winners, doesn't matter where that Wo/Man comes from because its your country winning by getting more fans, people playing and getting interested in the sport.
You seems to miss my point it's not about working in another country, this isn't a race or equality debate.
It's purely looking at the whole point of national sport which is to pit one nation against another with participants representing his /her country (by however thats ruled). By buying in participants from your rivals, for me it's lessening the competition, taking the Ashes as an example I want to so England & Wales taking on Australia, not England with an Australian head coach taking on the Aussies. Yes this is ideological, but why not.
I agree with you on Indian players, I would like the residency qualification rule scrapped (another debate), but at least those players do have to go through a qualification period as opposed to dropping in a foreign head coach in.
If Indian coaches are being overlooked for the national job, the coaching structure should be investigated same here in England.
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Means Saker won't be playing in our league next year!!! Get in
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You seems to miss my point it's not about working in another country, this isn't a race or equality debate.
It's purely looking at the whole point of national sport which is to pit one nation against another with participants representing his /her country (by however thats ruled). By buying in participants from your rivals, for me it's lessening the competition, taking the Ashes as an example I want to so England & Wales taking on Australia, not England with an Australian head coach taking on the Aussies. Yes this is ideological, but why not.
I agree with you on Indian players, I would like the residency qualification rule scrapped (another debate), but at least those players do have to go through a qualification period as opposed to dropping in a foreign head coach in.
If Indian coaches are being overlooked for the national job, the coaching structure should be investigated same here in England.
You speak of an ideal nation vs nation scenario, it would be nice to see that but even olympics don't fall under that category as coaches are not necessarily from the same nation....would be an interesting thing to see though.
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It's interesting when you look at the other test nations coaching -
Aus - Lehman
SA - Domingo
SL - Atapattu
India - Fletcher (Zim)
Pak - Younis
WI - Richardson
NZ - Hesson
Bang - Hathurusingha (SL)
So only India and Bangladesh have Head Coaches that aren't from their own countries.
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Don't think Stuart Broad will be taking advice on bowling from his Sister anytime soon lol
Going back to the counties assumes the county coach knows anything about bowling. Even if he does, he may not have the experience of the England Bowling Coach or the knowledge of what's required at International level.
The only way having no coach would work is if the FC setup was a much higher standard ie. 6-8 teams . Then the standard would be similar to test match level and the coaches would be better (hopefully) at FC level, by this I mean more use to working with international players on a daily basis.
if we are looking to make the FC stuff top standard etc then surely all the best coaches would work in the county structure. It's all inter linked and dependant on every cog doing it's job properly.
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It's interesting when you look at the other test nations coaching -
Aus - Lehman
SA - Domingo
SL - Atapattu
India - Fletcher (Zim)
Pak - Younis
WI - Richardson
NZ - Hesson
Bang - Hathurusingha (SL)
So only India and Bangladesh have Head Coaches that aren't from their own countries.
That's a very small sample size, try taking the last 10 years for each country.
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It's interesting when you look at the other test nations coaching -
Aus - Lehman
SA - Domingo
SL - Atapattu
India - Fletcher (Zim)
Pak - Younis
WI - Richardson
NZ - Hesson
Bang - Hathurusingha (SL)
So only India and Bangladesh have Head Coaches that aren't from their own countries.
do the last ten years of head coaches, batting, bowling, fielding etc
then look at how teams are performing.. eng are crap and minted so should be able to employ the best.. not like say bang, WI who have to take who they can get. The fact the ECB can't get the best says more about them and England than anything else.
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Well Dimi Mascarenhas has been snapped up by NZ.
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Good move by them even if it's only for their tour over here. Hope he does well. I always liked him as a player
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It is representing your country, it's preparing and sending your team out to do battle (in a sporting sense) against another countries best. It's pitting your country's cricketing prowess against your opponents prowess, its England v Australia, it's not a business. It's about pride, getting the most out of the ability you have. If all we do is give up and ask our biggest cricketing rivals to manage our national team for us, we might as well crawl back under our rock and be done with it. My best mates Australian, I've lived and played in Australia, if we hand them the keys to our national team we will be a laughing stock forevermore and god help the next touring side in Aus, they will be ripped to shreds. It's akin to asking Napoleon to take charge of our Navy!
Happy to poach SA/AUS players to be competitive on the field but not a coach, seems valid.
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I am more than happy for the best man to do the job regardless of his nationality. What I was getting at earlier was a reply to someone saying they would have Gillespie, Ponting, Warne and Lee as our back room staff. I'm all for the best man getting the job but to have all those Aussies in the management would be a bit too much to take.
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I am more than happy for the best man to do the job regardless of his nationality. What I was getting at earlier was a reply to someone saying they would have Gillespie, Ponting, Warne and Lee as our back room staff. I'm all for the best man getting the job but to have all those Aussies in the management would be a bit too much to take.
but they are possibly the best?? you can't be happy to have the best and then say 'but not if they all happen to be australian'. You either want the best or you are happy to have idiots like Moores in charge just because they are English.
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Happy to poach SA/AUS players to be competitive on the field but not a coach, seems valid.
Who's happy about SA/AUS players or Irish for that matter playing for England/Wales? Not me, the residency rules stink, I mentioned that previously. It's just papering over England/Wales inability to develop a pool of very good International standard players and coaches.
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but they are possibly the best?? you can't be happy to have the best and then say 'but not if they all happen to be australian'. You either want the best or you are happy to have idiots like Moores in charge just because they are English.
Problem is, there are not many non-English coaches interested int eh job. Elite coaches from elsewhere see the practically 12 month round schedule and press attention and say no thanks. Its easier for them to earn a quick buck in the IPL then do a job they care naturally about.
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but they are possibly the best?? you can't be happy to have the best and then say 'but not if they all happen to be australian'. You either want the best or you are happy to have idiots like Moores in charge just because they are English.
I draw the line at 2 of them.
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Who's happy about SA/AUS players or Irish for that matter playing for England/Wales? Not me, the residency rules stink, I mentioned that previously. It's just papering over England/Wales inability to develop a pool of very good International standard players and coaches.
agree with you on this.
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Back to the Future - Gibson it is
http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-indies-v-england-2015/content/story/856137.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-indies-v-england-2015/content/story/856137.html)