Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => World Cricket => England => Topic started by: Buzz on August 14, 2015, 12:48:42 PM
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Given the churn of openers the England team has had recently how long should Lyth be given - or anyone else for that matter? Lyth has been the leading opening bat for the county championship winning team for two years and really earned his spot.
However - it is clear that may of the most successful openers in the past have started in the lower order and then been pushed up the order - Even Ali Cook started at 3, while Langer and Haydon started in the middle order. Michael Vaughan started in the middle order, whereas Trescothic opened in a few ODI's and off he went.
In recent past Lyth, Compton, Robson and Carberry are all openers who have had to go out and face the new ball from the start of their career, as a batsman this has to be the hardest way to start a test career, especially in England against the Duke ball - I consider Trescothic to be the exception given how well he played.
Where I am going with this is - if Moeen was given the opportunity to open in the winter will he have an advantage because he has played for 2 seasons already. Is that fair on Lyth who has had a test career of facing Trent and Southey followed by Starc, johnson and hazlewood! (as did Carberry!)
I have to be honest, i can't make my mind up as to what the best approach might be.
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I think it depends.
England are quicker to dispose of people who have not been in the system since they were nippers. For this reason I think that Lyth gets a stay of execution.
Compton was picked for England when making all his runs as a no.3 (Trescothick and Suppiah were the opening pair then) and the space was at opener. He probably did not have the psychological profile required by Flower to be given much rope, i.e. he knew his own mind. Carberry looked okay but got stuck, Robson kept getting bowled against a popgun attack, so there were good reasons to move on.
If it's anything to go by, Lyth looked much better at TB. He looked like he was proactively altering his game - he'd tightened up and still played some good punchy shots without chasing outside offstump. He was out early to the swinging ball playing the line. I'd keep going with him to be honest.
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I think Lyth either has to be given more time if they are just plonking him in to open as opposed to playing lower down and moving up.
However, if we were looking for people to move up the order who have already got used to the international game, you could have Ali, Bell or Root. Personally, I like Root where he is, a player to steady the ship so Ali or Bell could open.
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I think it depends.
England are quicker to dispose of people who have not been in the system since they were nippers. For this reason I think that Lyth gets a stay of execution.
Compton was picked for England when making all his runs as a no.3 (Trescothick and Suppiah were the opening pair then) and the space was at opener. He probably did not have the psychological profile required by Flower to be given much rope, i.e. he knew his own mind. Carberry looked okay but got stuck, Robson kept getting bowled against a popgun attack, so there were good reasons to move on.
If it's anything to go by, Lyth looked much better at TB. He looked like he was proactively altering his game - he'd tightened up and still played some good punchy shots without chasing outside offstump. He was out early to the swinging ball playing the line. I'd keep going with him to be honest.
Couldn't agree more, especially the last part, I think Lyth is trying to iron out his flaws outside off stump and I think that will buy him a little bit of extra time to try and find his form, there's no doubting his quality (in my opinion, you can't score that many county runs by being rubbish) but time will tell if he has the discipline and mental strength for test cricket. I also agree with Buzz in that I can't make up my mind as to what the correct was forward is and for that reason I'd be inclined to stick with Lyth a bit longer.
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I'd stick with him and give him time to adjust to Test cricket. I like his attitude and think he will be a longterm success. He's probably had the 2nd most difficult initiation as an English test opener of recent times, only behind Carbs who was well and truly shafted.
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Controversial comments may be controversial.
Robson, lyth, Carberry all struggled to stay in. They tried to hang around but they got out earlier rather than later with not much on the board.
So there anyone better out there? Seems not.
So your resigned to losing a wicket early. Why not get that person to score as many runs until he's got and soften the ball abit.
So you could stick with lyth and tell him to play an attacking game(he seems to have it anyway)
Or.......
Open with hales or Roy and tell them to go out in odi mode.
A run a ball hundred every so often could well win them a test. Even a quick fire 30 to 50 will do some damage to the Bol and bowlers egos.
Less than ten? Well we are where we are now.
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There was a Cricinfo article a few weeks ago about this. http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/901641.html (http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/901641.html)
The problem England have is that they don't really have anyone who looks comfortable opening with Cook so the next bright young opener has a chance to bed in down the order. Root could do the job but he is in the form of his life in the middle-order so they won't move him up. Ballance or Bell? Maybe but unlikely especially with Ballance's run of form being no better than Lyth. The Oval test is an opportunity for Lyth to bat without as much pressure. He's been lucky that England have been winning while he has struggled but if he can get 1 decent score this test then he has the chance to stay in the team in South Africa.
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Lyth should be England's opener for the next year or so. Firstly he has proved himself for 2 years at the top of the order in Div 1 of county championship. Secondly look at the new ball bowlers he has faced Boult, southern and Johnson are world class and staff and Hazelwood are class bowlers early in careers. He has 100 already and ok he is getting out in a similar way but that will be worked on behind the scenes. Leave the lad alone for 12 months give him 3/4 series and go from there.
The only other option should be Ali leave Bell and root alone at there current positions.
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Controversial comments may be controversial.
Robson, lyth, Carberry all struggled to stay in. They tried to hang around but they got out earlier rather than later with not much on the board.
So there anyone better out there? Seems not.
So your resigned to losing a wicket early. Why not get that person to score as many runs until he's got and soften the ball abit.
So you could stick with lyth and tell him to play an attacking game(he seems to have it anyway)
Or.......
Open with hales or Roy and tell them to go out in odi mode.
A run a ball hundred every so often could well win them a test. Even a quick fire 30 to 50 will do some damage to the Bol and bowlers egos.
Less than ten? Well we are where we are now.
This would've seemed like wishful thinking, armchair selection that'd never be picked up by the people in charge, except - Murali Vijay, David Warner, Martin Guptill - why aren't England doing it?
I'd love a return to the belief that your openers go out there with the mindset that there's no reason they shouldn't acumulate for a session or two and get your number 3 in with 150+ on the board, but since England haven't done that against decent opposition since, I'm guessing - 2011? I think it needs doing. Hales.
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I am Commonwealth Nation Citizen, one captain in my club seem to send me as a opener. I played one game as a opener while second one is tomorrow.
I can not guarantee runs but I can guarantee that the bat I bring in middle would be one which can score hundreds of runs in a day. Oh another thing, do not sponsor me for equipment as they can invest that money elsewhere, instead I will sponsor my opening partner...if I have a choice I vouch for @FattusCattus so I can get few biscuits before every ball (because after the delivery, I might be en route to pavilion).
Can I be utilized? ;)
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Don't think there's much point in not sticking with him certainly would nt move Ali he's found his spot second only to Joe this series for ashes runs scored with an ave of 38.
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Don't think there's much point in not sticking with him certainly would nt move Ali he's found his spot second only to Joe this series for ashes runs scored with an ave of 38.
so you would put in hales to open? , because lyth , hales , ali and possibly bell are the only options i know of.
also would that mean either moeen spins in the UAE or rashid replaces finn/wood and both have won tests in the ashes.
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Hales is undoubtably a good player but I fear if he were to play-opening the batting- his position would soon come under fire by those complaining when England were very quickly not a lot for 1.
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I think give Lyth a half decent run! He did look a little better in the last Test, even though he got out quite early!
But he has hit an International ton already and he has earned his place by showing his class. Is there anyone better at the moment?
If it doesn't work out, then I have thought that Hales could be a half decent option for a while now. But failing that just find the best ODI opening in the County circuit and see how they do - Warner has always been seen as an ODI batsman and he has managed to adapt quite well. So worth a try as there seems to be a shortage of Test openers who can step up!
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Yes that what I meant stick with him as who else apart from Hales is there like Hales a lot but is he a pinch hitter and there's the problem he fails and England find themselves 3 for not many.
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I'd stick with him as he has been the class bat in the Championship for three years now and has got a disproportionate number of decent balls.
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There is a school of thought that says Joe Root may yet be an opening bat. I really can't see Moeen Ali in that position.
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Stick with Lyth, he's only 6 matches into his test career for heavens sake. At this point we should be giving Lyth a guarantee that the openers berth is his through to the end of the series in India in 2016.
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I hope they persevere with Lyth. I'm not quite sure what Compton's done to warrant being mentioned so often this summer.
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Bring back Compton - dropped after being an early success, on the basis of two very bad games when he played with a broken rib!
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Bring back Compton - dropped after being an early success, on the basis of two very bad games when he played with a broken rib!
I agree he was quite harshly treated. But bring him back now? Nah!
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Stick with Lyth. It's his first six test match and he's got out to the best bowler in the world. We know he can perform like he did in New Zealand so stay with him. The last test match he got out to a 95mph ball... no one in the England setup would have layed a bat to that
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Bring back Compton - dropped after being an early success, on the basis of two very bad games when he played with a broken rib!
Without doubt Compton was harshly treated could it be he didn't fit in ?.
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I was always disappointed that he didn't go back to county cricket, make a shed load of runs and force a rethink.
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Compton made a few cheap runs in easy conditions then clogged the place up - displaying hat was described by his teammates as a selfish attitude in so doing.
Lyth has not scored much but has been dismissed (one awful shot apart) by good balls all series, got a superb ton against a world class attack earlier in the Summer, catches flies in the slips and is clearly liked by his team mates.
Would I think it harsh if he were replaced? Not massively - but I hope they stick with him.
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I've been thinking that, from an England perspective, it's a shame Steve Davies doesn't open the batting for Surrey in four-day cricket. One of the classiest batsmen in the country for sure, and still only 29.
Now I mention it, I'm surprised none of the more 'progressive' (clueless?) amongst us pointed out that Zafar Ansari was a regular opening bat, in the "Who spins?" thread.
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Possibly because I said it in the other thread and not in here as I am not sure it is an option that is likely to happen for many sensible reasons.
I also still believe we need an attacking opening batsman with cook at the top of the order. Zafar is not that. Lyth is having a go at it. Hales is now at 3 for notts, Davies is class and arguably could pinch Roy's opening place for the odi stuff but has never opened the batting for the championship side.
Plus the demands for the UAE is very different to those of the SA tour straight afterwards. Lyth may just keep his spot as much by default than anything else. Which may be a good thing.
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Possibly because I said it in the other thread and not in here as I am not sure it is an option that is likely to happen for many sensible reasons.
I agree it is not a realistic option. And missed that you'd mentioned it in the other thread. But people have suggested more ridiculous things.
Davies has not been spoken of as an England player since he came out. Perhaps it's simply because he no longer keeps wicket?
England will not, and should not, drop Jason Roy from the one-day team.
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I think there are more issues than just the opening position. So far in this ashes series England really has only had one decent batsman in Root.. If they face a team who bowls well they will struggle...
It's hard to say as an Aussie but we bowled absolutely terrible. England won the ashes on the back of their bowlers and were only marginally better with the bat than Australia.
I'd be leaving the openers as they are and searching elsewhere for runs...
Just my opinion of course
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Cook has batted well, in a traditional way. In most games he has left something of a platform - his freak dismissal at Edgbaston was a shame. Omen has looked good, Bairstow did himself out of a hundred and Ian Bell, despite being terminally rubbish (copyright CBF) still has three half centuries. Buttler is the only one who hasn't contributed with the bat, but his keeping has stood up well to the bye factories behind the Aussie stumps.
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Bairstow hard to judge on 2 innings, but one of them was a well constructed 74. Can't remember a decent innings from buttler yet?
Who is the better glove men? If it's Bairstow and buttler continues to fail. What about dropping buttler giving the gloves to Bairstow and bringing in a left field player who can bat and bowl.
Say david Willey at 7... Or even mo to 7 and Willey at 8. Will add an extra dimension to bowling(left arm quick) and allow us to play two spinners and still have a 4 prong pace attack, and maintain the odi style 6 7 8 they seem to be aiming for.
Or is stokes, Ali, Willey too many all rounders in one side?
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Willey is a bit Stokes lite for Tests. Really like hiis case for the ODIs though.
Buttler will come good. He's just got to get in line a bit more, I think.
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I think we've got plenty of batting talent. Ballance (he'll be back) and Bell have been out of form, but we won the Ashes nevertheless.
I did think Bell's career may be coming to the end, but I'm glad to have been at least partially proven wrong.
Exciting times, I think. But we still do need to find a spinner (or two) and a convincing opening partner for Cook.
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Willey is a bit Stokes lite for Tests. Really like hiis case for the ODIs though.
Buttler will come good. He's just got to get in line a bit more, I think.
Stokes-like is a bad thing?
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When do you actually need two spinners? Maybe India, but England and SA have had success with just the one, and definitely Sri Lanka, who'll barely play England in Tests.
I agree about the opening bat, but Lyth looks alright.
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When do you actually need two spinners? Maybe India, but England and SA have had success with just the one, and definitely Sri Lanka, who'll barely play England in Tests.
I agree about the opening bat, but Lyth looks alright.
You certainly need one when the other is injured. And Test cricket is evolving. The days of four-man attacks are gone.
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True, but swing and cut is getting more valuable in a time of poor spin options.
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English cricket ought to have plenty of decent spinners, regardless of how many play in the England team.
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Willey is a bit Stokes lite for Tests.
Haha, you said Stokes-lite! Not Stokes-like! I am reading on my phone earlier.
David Willey is certainly not anything lite. He's heavy!
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Bairstow hard to judge on 2 innings, but one of them was a well constructed 74. Can't remember a decent innings from buttler yet?
Who is the better glove men? If it's Bairstow and buttler continues to fail. What about dropping buttler giving the gloves to Bairstow and bringing in a left field player who can bat and bowl.
Say david Willey at 7... Or even mo to 7 and Willey at 8. Will add an extra dimension to bowling(left arm quick) and allow us to play two spinners and still have a 4 prong pace attack, and maintain the odi style 6 7 8 they seem to be aiming for.
Or is stokes, Ali, Willey too many all rounders in one side?
Leave it alone, please.
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Leave it alone, please.
No
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Buttler is going to be a superstar he should be untouched.
Also his keeping is vastly improved and is better than Bairstow now
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Buttler is going to be a superstar he should be untouched.
Also his keeping is vastly improved and is better than Bairstow now
Buttler is a One Day player in my opinion. He's great at the limited overs stuff, but has not done anything at test level to prove he's capable of building an innings.
He may've made a few decent scores in whites, but they've all been in a situation where he can go out and swing. If he goes out and grinds out a score then fair play to him, but I honestly haven't seen any evidence Buttler is the man for test cricket.
As for keeping, Buttler may have improved but I still believe Bairstow is the superior glove man, I'd be more confident with him behind the sticks that snicks would stick.
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Buttler is a One Day player in my opinion. He's great at the limited overs stuff, but has not done anything at test level to prove he's capable of building an innings.
He may've made a few decent scores in whites, but they've all been in a situation where he can go out and swing. If he goes out and grinds out a score then fair play to him, but I honestly haven't seen any evidence Buttler is the man for test cricket.
As for keeping, Buttler may have improved but I still believe Bairstow is the superior glove man, I'd be more confident with him behind the sticks that snicks would stick.
Didn't Buttler take a blinder in the last test.
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Guys i can play for you if you want :) :D
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Didn't Buttler take a blinder in the last test.
One swallow doesn't make a summer (but it's an enjoyable evening) and all that...
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Guys i can play for you if you want :) :D
Have you tried the Aussies
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Buttler's here to stay. Coming in at no.7, we want him to do exactly what he does in one-day cricket.
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Buttler's here to stay. Coming in at no.7, we want him to do exactly what he does in one-day cricket.
No we don't!
If it's a backs against the wall dig in job I don't want to see a hit and giggle specialist go out there and throw their wicket away!
What England need from their number 7 is someone who can play the situation, and so far Buttler has only shown he can go out and smack it.
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Technically Bairstow has come on leaps and bounds in his wicket keeping since working with French. He could really challenge Buttler for his spot over the next 12-18months.
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Have you tried the Aussies
Do you want to Lose the Final Test or what ? :D
If i play for Aussies you are going down boyy :)
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I prefer the term 'counter-attacking'.
Can't believe this is even being discussed.
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Nor can I. Buttler is the most talented batsman in the team. At the moment he has been focused on becoming a test match quality keeper, but his batting will arrive.
Seriously leaving him out is such a daft suggestion.
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Buttler deserves the same run at the job that Lyth does.
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Not suggesting leaving him out merely observing that with Bairstow's undoubted improvement in the quality of his wicket keeping it is nice to be in the position of having two keeper/batsmen pushing each other without the obvious gulf in ability.
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In some ways that quirk exposes an anomaly in England's selction - that arguably the better keeper and certainly the better batsman doesn't get the gloves - but England have improved massively over recent years because of consistent selection. Buttler has never deserved being dropped and therefore Bairstow came in when a different vacancy arose.
Long term, its one they'll have to look at. If Bairstow isn't quite making it as a btsman but scoring more heavily than Buttler, say...
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Dont wanna put a dampener on lyth currently. Hope he gets a good score today.
But
Notts were put into bat and hales promoted back to opener.
He's currently on 144*
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im sure there are loads of us hoping Lyth gets a score today, he's looked alright, just keeps getting out. To be fair whoever Notts are playing it won't be the same bowling as he has faced all summer.
Hales is def one for the one dayers, not convinced about the Tests myself, lots on this forum are thou! :)
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Hales 174th run today takes him past 1000 runs for the season!
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Has bell ever opened in tests?
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Hales 174th run today takes him past 1000 runs for the season!
Top trolling from Hales!
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Has bell ever opened in tests?
Not sure but presume your thinking if Lyth was dropping, Bell moves up(again) and someone else slots in to the middle(it's getting packed in that middle order!!)
Hales is giving it a right hammering for Notts today.England might look at Bell opening with Cook and slotting Hales in at 3 or 4 maybe........
Hales hasn't scored massive runs this year in the Championship but as has been pointed out on the forum, Warner was a one day player now a very good test player.
Personally speaking, and this won't be popular on here I don't think(!), if Lyth gets dropped I would move Bell up and bring back Balance.
As I said I don't expect that to be a popular view :) :)
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Top trolling from Hales!
alright Buzz alright we are hearing ya!!! :)
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Not sure but presume your thinking if Lyth was dropping, Bell moves up(again) and someone else slots in to the middle(it's getting packed in that middle order!!)
Hales is giving it a right hammering for Notts today.England might look at Bell opening with Cook and slotting Hales in at 3 or 4 maybe........
Hales hasn't scored massive runs this year in the Championship but as has been pointed out on the forum, Warner was a one day player now a very good test player.
Personally speaking, and this won't be popular on here I don't think(!), if Lyth gets dropped I would move Bell up and bring back Balance.
As I said I don't expect that to be a popular view :) :)
I was thinking bell up to open, hales in at 3, or bell opening, root and bairstow 3 and 4, Ali 5, and Rashid or a.n. other spinner in.
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You must be joking. balance should never be allowed near the England team again. Talentless plodder!
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Well, can't think of another opener ive wanted to do better than Lyth...but......I don't think he is going to make it so youre right, we could well have another option for the UAE tour.
If Bell moves up yes we could play 2 spinners, which we probably need against Pakistan on those wickets.
Hales has done his cause no harm, much to the joy of Buzz!
he is currently 186 no.... he can certainly bat and does go big when he is in.
We are playing a more aggressive and adventurous type of cricket, maybe Hales slots into the current style.....
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You must be joking. balance should never be allowed near the England team again. Talentless plodder!
I did say it wouldn't be popular!! :)
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Hales hasn't scored massive runs this year in the Championship but as has been pointed out on the forum, Warner was a one day player now a very good test player.
He's only the 4th highest runscorer and currently on track for his second double ton... Not bad, particularly when your home ground is Trent Bridge.
I'd try and give Lyth the time to find his feet a little more, suspect Hales is in with a very good chance of making the winter test tour squads though.
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Ballance currently 54*
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It wasn't long ago that people were calling for Bell's head. Now they talk about moving him up to the top of the order to accommodate Hales. I love the fickle observer.
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He's only the 4th highest runscorer and currently on track for his second double ton... Not bad, particularly when your home ground is Trent Bridge.
I'd try and give Lyth the time to find his feet a little more, suspect Hales is in with a very good chance of making the winter test tour squads though.
fair point, Hales has more runs than I thought... I think will make the squad too,he is a shoe in for the one dayers
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It wasn't long ago that people were calling for Bell's head. Now they talk about moving him up to the top of the order to accommodate Hales. I love the fickle observer.
some were yes, not from me thou, Bell has 7500 test runs you don't get those in the sweetie shop as someone once said.
How much more time would you give Lyth? lots of us on here really hoping he did something.. do England keep going with him for the UAE tour?
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Not aimed at you specifically but the more general state of affairs; the problem of choosing the least worst option. Player selection is always going to be a contentious point and where players consistently under perform we, as fans, demand change.
For much of the summer I was like you of the opinion of retaining Bell in the hope that he would once again recover some kind of form. To a certain extent he has-showing glimpses of his undoubted class-but not convincingly or consistently so.
As for Lyth I am loath to give him anymore time but without pressure from below I am left scratching my head. Calls to bring Ali up the order to open or bat three seem, to me, premature while I feel that calls to move Bell up the order to open would not be conducive to stability or scores.
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Not aimed at you specifically but the more general state of affairs; the problem of choosing the least worst option. Player selection is always going to be a contentious point and where players consistently under perform we, as fans, demand change.
For much of the summer I was like you of the opinion of retaining Bell in the hope that he would once again recover some kind of form. To a certain extent he has-showing glimpses of his undoubted class-but not convincingly or consistently so.
As for Lyth I am loath to give him anymore time but without pressure from below I am left scratching my head. Calls to bring Ali up the order to open or bat three seem, to me, premature while I feel that calls to move Bell up the order to open would not be conducive to stability or scores.
fair points....in fact if you read BBC text they are talking about Ali moving up, he bats 3 for Worcestershire...
It's a tricky one, I don't think myself Lyth is test class, as much as us fans want him to be...and i'm definatley in that camp.
Bell I reckon has a couple of years left, but I can understand those who think he goes missing when it's tough
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Wouldn't even contemplate Ali batting higher tbh, not good enough to bat that high in tests. Doesn't even have that great a record there in 1st class, remember he was picked as a spinner not a batsman.
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Wouldn't even contemplate Ali batting higher tbh, not good enough to bat that high in tests. Doesn't even have that great a record there in 1st class, remember he was picked as a spinner not a batsman.
Agreed. However, I do think he should be batting higher, even if it was only 1 or 2 places.
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I don't like saying it, but this is enough chances for Lyth now- New England cannot go with someone so fallible at the top of the order, a replacement must be found.
I vote Mo up to open in the UAE, or Hales given a series out there to counteract Cooks steadyness.
Still need a proper spinner though?
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According to the BBC, Bayliss wants Rashid to play tests...
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So why isn't he? Plenty of murmurs about attitude problems.
A young guy should be giving his eye-teeth to play for England
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So why isn't he? Plenty of murmurs about attitude problems.
A young guy should be giving his eye-teeth to play for England
Regarding The England Lions side that Flower had, it wasn't just a murmuring...
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You could play one or other of buttler and bairstow, giving:
Cook
Hales
Bell
Root
Bairstow (wk)
Ali
Stokes
Rashid/Ansari
Broad
Wood/Footitt
Finn
Anderson
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You could play one or other of buttler and bairstow, giving:
Cook
Hales
Bell
Root
Bairstow (wk)
Ali
Stokes
Rashid/Ansari
Broad
Wood/Footitt
Finn
Anderson
So you're gonna go into a Test series on turning pitches with 4/5 players whom are hapless against spin?
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Buttlers glove work is far better then bairstows
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Is taylor in the running?
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You either believe in your 'system', ie LVCC or you don't. If you do, you stick with lyth etc due to weight of runs and the fact there is no one else out there anyway. Bairstow, not good enough for int cricket but scoring runs for fun.. Balance, not good enough but scoring runs for fun..
Common theme is the LVCC isn't up to it for whatever reason you want to choose and needs sorting. Hales is not the answer guys, he's a one day player and his 'weight of runs' come from a small few of his LVCC games anyway so he's not consistent and very technically flawed
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Anybody who is saying Hales to open needs to open their eyes!! He's a front foot bully! 200 at the start of the summer a big ton this week, where has he been the rest of the summer?!
Stick with lyth... About time England gave an opener a decent enough in the team instead of chopping and changing! The last 2 English openers to perform this badly in a 5 test series and early in their career were Gooch and Atherton, they went on to have decent test match careers
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As was said on Cricket Writers on TV this morning he started the season with Notts then played for England then came back when the counties were getting into 50 overs so he's not really had many 4 day knocks in between.
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He started the county season like a train. But then went to join Mumbai in India for a few weeks.
On his return he was in the England odi squad.
By the time he went back to notts it was
T20-4day-t20-4day-t20-4day-t20-50over-t20-4day etc etc.
He even had a massive rant on Twitter (which the ecb apparently had a quiet word with him regarding) with which he moaned how on earth did anyone expect to get into form with the dodgy schedule of swapping formats constantly.