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General Cricket => Players => Topic started by: FattusCattus on January 22, 2016, 12:52:28 PM

Title: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: FattusCattus on January 22, 2016, 12:52:28 PM
Now I know I'll get shouted down for this, but I am beginning to wonder about Jimmy.

From the bits I've seen in SA (since I got Sky back), he looks laboured - lacking a little bit of 'nip'. He doesn't seem to be much of a threat on a flat deck and is short on wickets. Before you all say, 'but look how good he was in UAE', that's kind of my point. They were flat decks too, and he found ways to bowl well out there that he is not necessarily replicated in SA.

Whisper it, but is he reaching the end of his shelf-life? It's a bit like Hoggy - he was superb and an absolute legend, but he seemed to go a bit flat at the end of his career.

I'm sure Jimmy will take bucketloads against the Asian teams visiting us this, but would this mask the longterm decline?
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: uknsaunders on January 22, 2016, 12:54:41 PM
How dare you Bruce lol

Difficult to say. I imagine he'll take a load of wickets next year and his speeds look fine. I don't think the kook ball is his (or anybodies) friend. India might well be the test.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: FattusCattus on January 22, 2016, 12:58:53 PM
Doesn't look himself to me. He looks stiffer than a w*nkers hanky at times.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: liscon12 on January 22, 2016, 01:03:10 PM
I'd like to know how many wickets he takes in SA over the years as I suspect it isn't somewhere he likes bowling in. We'll see how he goes in the UK this year but I suspect he'll be in the team for at least another year.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: jamielsn15 on January 22, 2016, 01:07:51 PM
IN addition to the ball and being in SA, I also don't think he's match fit.  Missed the back end of summer, not playing in ODIs and missed on in this series.  he's not fit.  Convinced of it...
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: rickjames on January 22, 2016, 01:08:19 PM
Dukes vs Kooks
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: edge on January 22, 2016, 01:10:06 PM
I've said it before, think he'll be done by the end of the year. Deserves a bit of time after his success, but he's not looked up to it this tour. Not sure if he's cooked or just not fully fit.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: ppccopener on January 22, 2016, 01:16:47 PM
that's it, send him off to Switzerland to the knackers yard for old bowlers to jump off a cliff !!!

nah.....he's got a bit left, he don't like the kook ball and who can blame him it's rubbish,loads the game in favour of the batsmen

but cherish him now cos he's is on the slide a bit, it's irreversible and he's bowled a lot of overs. Last year for the first time he got a side injury after playing thou every other test match with niggles and to be honest I thought....hang on....that would not of stopped him 6 months ago.

Wait till he get's a creak in the knee just watching telly like us old uns.
 :)
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Buzz on January 22, 2016, 01:17:59 PM
Before the game AB said that he felt Jimmy had lost his nip...
once that happens the wolves will start hounding at the door.

Oh he is hero worshipped by the media in the UK so that wont happen.

I definitely don't think he is fully fit, I don't know whether he will get it back.
Still go a chance to pick up some wickets on some early season wickets against Sri Lanka and then possibly against Pakistan and could well have a rest at that point.

I can't imagine him going quickly though, i think he will string it out for as long as possible. He certainly wont get dropped.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: iand123 on January 22, 2016, 03:04:39 PM
Agree with those who have said he doesn't look fit. Suspect he'll do well in the English summer in conditions that suit but could see him jacking it in before India. I know he's not one to back down from a challenge but a good summer gives him the opportunity to go out on a high
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: ppccopener on January 22, 2016, 03:11:13 PM
with the Duke ball I still think he is the most skilful bowler we have produced for yonks, even now he's miles ahead of other English bowlers.

He is class, I suspect yes England will put him in cotton wool. Tests only.Broad should do the same, cant work out why he wants to play one dayers(and has just got in the squad)
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 03:29:33 PM
Please don't retire before the Ashes Anderson, we want to see you get ready for a broken ducking arm one more time 😉
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: ppccopener on January 22, 2016, 03:35:19 PM
Please don't retire before the Ashes Anderson, we want to see you get ready for a broken ducking arm one more time 😉

yes with the Aussie selection policy no-one wants to see Jimmy A being attacked with a zimmer frame and a set of false teeth

 :)
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 03:41:09 PM
yes with the Aussie selection policy no-one wants to see Jimmy A being attacked with a zimmer frame and a set of false teeth

 :)
Touché  :o
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 22, 2016, 04:47:51 PM
Reckon a fit  Jimmy will be  back at Nottingham this summer moving the ball both ways late then  SA won't be a concern
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Riddy on January 22, 2016, 04:52:45 PM
Certainly into a decline. But like the others said, he will get a lot of time to wind down his career because he is one of Cooks buddies.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: HuwMawr on January 22, 2016, 07:54:13 PM

Doesn't look himself to me. He looks stiffer than a w*nkers hanky at times.
Brilliant - not heard that one for ages!
Hmm something not right - not sure he is completely trusting his fitness to bowl flat out. Kook ball doesn't help him but think it may be a little similar to what we r seeing with Dale Steyn.


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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: HuwMawr on January 22, 2016, 08:03:45 PM
Would it be wrong just to play Jimmy A at home? It's like India playing the second and sometimes third spinner on home tracks? Hey another 3 years out of him??


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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: MD2812 on January 22, 2016, 09:07:06 PM
Can see him having a good summer,
But the winter tour to India? Not so much....
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Number4 on January 22, 2016, 09:16:57 PM
Dukes vs Kooks

with the Duke ball I still think he is the most skilful bowler we have produced for yonks, even now he's miles ahead of other English bowlers.

He is class, I suspect yes England will put him in cotton wool. Tests only.Broad should do the same, cant work out why he wants to play one dayers(and has just got in the squad)

Guess these statements just goes to show how much better Australian bowlers have been over the years being able to bowl with any old ball where English rely on a Duke to be skillful   :) ;) :D
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 09:34:17 PM
Except in India... Jimmy owns the SG
Doesn't own it as much as Steyn though  ;)
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: ppccopener on January 22, 2016, 10:10:50 PM
Guess these statements just goes to show how much better Australian bowlers have been over the years being able to bowl with any old ball where English rely on a Duke to be skillful   :) ;) :D
Hmmmmm  :) that would be one angle to look at it from...certainly for a long period it didn't matter whose makers name was on the ball,all Ricky had to do was throw it to McGrath or Warne...and two greats they were-not sure your current ones are really up to it.When Johnson blew hot yes it was devastating,but your guys seem to get injured a lot.Correct me if I'm wrong,please, but is there not a proposal now to use the duke ball in state cricket on Oz? Why are they even looking at it?
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 10:15:40 PM
Hmmmmm  :) that would be one angle to look at it from...certainly for a long period it didn't matter whose makers name was on the ball,all Ricky had to do was throw it to McGrath or Warne...and two greats they were-not sure your current ones are really up to it.When Johnson blew hot yes it was devastating,but your guys seem to get injured a lot.Correct me if I'm wrong,please, but is there not a proposal now to use the duke ball in state cricket on Oz? Why are they even looking at it?
Kooka ball is considered to favour batsmen on Australian pitches. Throw in the Kooka has a shallower seam and stops swinging after 10-12 overs plus it gets soft after about 30 overs.

Duke ball might add more balance to domestic cricket and teach the younger bowlers how the Duke swings/reverses before they get to England.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: northernboy1987 on January 22, 2016, 10:29:18 PM
I don't think I've seen anyone as skillful with the Duke ball as Anderson, think Steyn definitely has the edge overall though.

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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Number4 on January 22, 2016, 10:38:23 PM
I don't think I've seen anyone as skillful with the Duke ball as Anderson, think Steyn definitely has the edge overall though.

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You obviously never seen a Terry Alderman bowl in England... 83 wickets in 2 ashes series in England
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 10:42:08 PM
I don't think I've seen anyone as skillful with the Duke ball as Anderson, think Steyn definitely has the edge overall though.

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Not meaning to be funny, but statements like this really grate my goat. Steyn is universally recognized as the best bowler of this generation, so he's not got 'the edge' on Anderson, but he's considerably better. Rant over  ;)
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: ppccopener on January 22, 2016, 10:44:57 PM
You obviously never seen a Terry Alderman bowl in England... 83 wickets in 2 ashes series in England

Alderman was a superb bowler over here in our conditions.Very very good indeed.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: smilley792 on January 22, 2016, 10:45:18 PM
Not meaning to be funny, but statements like this really grate my goat. Steyn is universally recognized as the best bowler of this generation, so he's not got 'the edge' on Anderson, but he's considerably better. Rant over  ;)

That's the South African coming out in you there Gerry.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 10:51:08 PM
That's the South African coming out in you there Gerry.
1. Unsure who's Gerry
2. Not many South Africans(zero) from where I was brought up
3. Facts are facts

 ;)
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: northernboy1987 on January 22, 2016, 10:51:58 PM
Not meaning to be funny, but statements like this really grate my goat. Steyn is universally recognized as the best bowler of this generation, so he's not got 'the edge' on Anderson, but he's considerably better. Rant over  ;)
Just my opinion mate, if I was writing a current team sheet for a test in England, using the Dukes ball, Anderson would be the first bowler on the sheet for me. Anywhere else in the world and it would be Steyn. In fact anywhere else in the world I'd take Broad or maybe even Finn before Anderson out of the current England set up.

To be fair, I never saw Alderman play as he was just before my time so apart from the odd Youtube clip etc. I haven't seen much of him so can't really pass much judgement.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 10:56:06 PM
If Alderman wasn't banned in 1985, he'd probably have had 100+ wickets in England alone.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: northernboy1987 on January 22, 2016, 10:57:58 PM
If Alderman wasn't banned in 1985, he'd probably have had 100+ wickets in England alone.
Rebel tour I'm presuming?

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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: ProCricketer1982 on January 22, 2016, 10:58:57 PM
Steyn is the best of the generation. Anderson is a highly skilled swing bowler. In England you'd still choose steyn first (assume both at peaks) but Anderson for England conditions would come an easy second.

As people have said, Anderson doesn't look fully fit so missing those slightly quicker balls he has/had. He'll take loads in England as they'll prepare green tops but I suspect he'll retire after India
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 10:59:56 PM
Rebel tour I'm presuming?

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Yeah mate...lost 4 years of his career, plus another 14 months when he rugby tackled an English fan a Perth and screwed his shoulder up  :(
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: northernboy1987 on January 22, 2016, 11:01:26 PM
Shame to see good players have their careers ended early, always felt for Simon Jones after the '05 Ashes, he was a fine bowler.

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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 11:01:46 PM
Steyn is the best of the generation. Anderson is a highly skilled swing bowler. In England you'd still choose steyn first (assume both at peaks) but Anderson for England conditions would come an easy second.

As people have said, Anderson doesn't look fully fit so missing those slightly quicker balls he has/had. He'll take loads in England as they'll prepare green tops but I suspect he'll retire after India
TBH will England need him in India?

Broad and Finn, plus Stokes. Then Ali and Rashid/Panesar? You won't need 4 seam up bowlers on the pitches the Indians are currently serving up!
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Aussie In England on January 22, 2016, 11:03:00 PM
Shame to see good players have their careers ended early, always felt for Simon Jones after the '05 Ashes, he was a fine bowler.

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My favourite England bowler in recent times...don't tell anyone I said that  :o
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: FattusCattus on January 22, 2016, 11:07:36 PM
Alderman - what a genius, swung it late and just enough. Actually formed a lovely partnership with Lawson.

Imagine an attack with the Dukes ball of:

Alderman
Steyn
Anderson
Flintoff
Swann

mmmm lovely!
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: northernboy1987 on January 22, 2016, 11:07:51 PM
Was an important part of a very good pace attack, people remember him for the prodigious reverse swing but he was capable of bowling with real wheels too. Mighty fine bowler.

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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: ppccopener on January 22, 2016, 11:11:14 PM
To be fair to us England fans,well a lot of us on here anyway, we are putting Steyn at the top of the best list, his strike rate is phenomenal, he's done it all over the world,moves it at genuine pace.But what we saying is Jimmy and broad are world class and in English conditions with a duke ball Steyn and Jimmy there's a fag paper between them.Id have Anderson under THOSE conditions as the best.
Overall...yes Steyn is the best of his generation-we are not really arguing the point
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Number4 on January 22, 2016, 11:14:59 PM
I just don't see why a brand of ball should decide who is a better bowler.... You either are or you aren't in my opinion
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: northernboy1987 on January 22, 2016, 11:15:47 PM
Steyn shouldn't be allowed in the running in the same way AB shouldn't for white ball batsmen, they're freaks, once in a lifetime players who do things that are right at the limit of what is possible.

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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: uknsaunders on January 22, 2016, 11:42:24 PM
How many of you actually remember Alderman bowling? For gods sake!

1981 - apart from the oval there was 5 seamers decks. Even Woakes could of got wickets on those.

1989 - the wickets were better but England weren't. Alderman just bowled straight and they all played across the line.

He got 80 odd wickets because he got Gooch lbw 20 odd times falling over his bloody front foot!.

Alderman was a fine bowler but he  wasn't as quick as Anderson or as good through the air.

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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Number4 on January 22, 2016, 11:48:07 PM
Maybe you watched a different ashes series than me in '81 as Alderman only got Gooch out  twice and only once which was lbw.

The '89 series he got him lbw 3 times... Lawson was more of a problem for Gooch..

Failing memory with age I guess Nick ;)
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: uknsaunders on January 22, 2016, 11:57:17 PM
Maybe you watched a different ashes series than me in '81 as Alderman only got Gooch out  twice and only once which was lbw.

The '89 series he got him lbw 3 times... Lawson was more of a problem for Gooch..

Failing memory with age I guess Nick ;)
I think you must be right about 81 and 89 but it was a running joke at the time. In 81 Gooch got lbw to Lawson and lillee as well. In fact he wasn't even good enough to get his pad in the way to Alderman on one occasion. How on earth he got out to ray bright twice in a test I don't know.

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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: mcgill123 on January 23, 2016, 12:16:27 AM
Most points have already been made re kook ball, unfavourable conditions, fitness etc but in Jimmy's defence, and I've watched every ball of all four tests so far, he's beat the bat on countless occasions without finding an edge and is due a bit of luck in my opinion.
Variance can make the best look ordinary sometimes.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Woodyspin on January 23, 2016, 08:42:37 AM
Fair to say if Simon Jones' career wasnt ruined he would have given both Anderson and Steyn a run for their money!
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: uknsaunders on January 23, 2016, 09:42:29 AM
Alderman - what a genius, swung it late and just enough. Actually formed a lovely partnership with Lawson.

Imagine an attack with the Dukes ball of:

Alderman
Steyn
Anderson
Flintoff
Swann

mmmm lovely!
Alderman bowled with a readers in 81/89 I believe. Until the late 90s they use to toss for the ball, England famously got done in part by Pakistan in 1992 because pakistan won the toss for the entire series and chose readers for reverse swing. England picked an attack of dukes specialists!

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Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Seniorplayer on January 23, 2016, 10:08:23 AM
Seen Alderman many times including the match when he hurt his shoulder which ended his career he wasn't that great.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: FattusCattus on January 23, 2016, 10:39:32 AM
All of which debate masks the fact that Jimmy continues to be average in this series - sadly he's also paired with the similarly ineffective Woakes.

Assuming Broad, Finn and Stokes are all fit, the other options to consider are Wood (if fit), Plunko (if fit), Footit, Jimmy, so the cupboard is hardly bare.

Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Woodyspin on January 23, 2016, 12:26:21 PM
Plunkett is another Onions... Just a squad filler
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: MD2812 on January 27, 2016, 11:35:13 AM
Anderson average third innings speed: 82.30 mph
Anderson average third innings speed to de Villiers: 86.49 mph
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Neon Cricket on January 27, 2016, 11:51:16 AM
Anderson average third innings speed: 82.30 mph
Anderson average third innings speed to de Villiers: 86.49 mph

That's a great stat - old Jimmy can still push it through when he wants then!
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: uknsaunders on January 27, 2016, 12:12:42 PM
I think Jimmy still can, when he needs to. Plenty of bowlers have and do operate in the 80-85mph bracket. It's only when you are bowling with a kook on a flat deck that it becomes a problem. I didn't watch all his spells but from memory he beat the bat and was unlucky in some spells. I think he bowled a pacey unlucky spell on the 3rd evening at Cape Town to Amla and Faff.
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: Thesmiff on January 27, 2016, 12:18:13 PM

I think Jimmy still can, when he needs to. Plenty of bowlers have and do operate in the 80-85mph bracket. It's only when you are bowling with a kook on a flat deck that it becomes a problem. I didn't watch all his spells but from memory he beat the bat and was unlucky in some spells. I think he bowled a pacey unlucky spell on the 3rd evening at Cape Town to Amla and Faff.
agree with that, had a couple of catches spilt too ( didn't all the bowlers though) it's seemed to be at times he was struggling a little for rhythm. Probably due to his lay off, and this is where the age thing maybe an issue. Just as it tends to take longer to recover as you get older it can take longer for the body to get back up to match readiness or find that 'rhythm'. He's still some time left in him yet me thinks
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: ppccopener on January 27, 2016, 12:40:30 PM
really hope he carries on for a couple of years yet if nothing else for the priceless look when anyone misfields or drops a catch only topped by the refusal to field sometimes when he thinks someone could of stopped a single and let's the return just hit him in the leg.

English - legend

any other country - moody prima donna

sums up us fans  !! :)
Title: Re: Jimmy......the end?
Post by: TangoWhiskey on January 27, 2016, 01:16:03 PM
I have no worries about Jimmy. He beat the bat a million times and just didn't catch the edge. When Broad was running through them in Joburg Jimmy was doing the same thing at the other end but not getting the chop on's or the nicks. On another day he would have taken 6 or 7 wickets. He'll be fine when we get back to England.