Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Cover_Drive on February 01, 2016, 03:45:41 PM
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Hello Guys,
Hope you all are doing well.
To be clear first and foremost, this is not intended towards anyone rather a general thought which has been buzzing in my mind for past few months.
Isn't it strange to see how much of the term "pro-bats, players bat" etc is used nowadays? How come players bats became readily accessible to general public? I thought they were scarce? I see a lot of retailers flogging bats by citing them as a "players bat.'' Are they deceiving the public to make maximum amount of money or they are legitimate? I have bought 2-3 bats from retailers which were "players reject" but I am skeptical on them. Apart from that I have 5-8 which I actually got from player's kit bags.
By the way, I believe in sharpie to an extent as I have seen Canadian players bat (who is sponsored by SS) and they had sharpie writing.
Your thoughts?
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Firstly, if a player rejects a bat it was never a players bat to start with. If he uses it and then rejects it or gives it away, then it obviously didn't cut the mustard. Players keep the bats that work for them, it's tools of the trade and we do the same. They will I imagine reject bats that don't feel right, wrong weight, pickup and there may be nothing wrong with them performance wise.
What am I getting at? Simply, unless the player has told you why they rejected it treat any claim with a pinch of salt.
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If i remember rightly a piece Ben Stokes did during the ashes, something like 5 bats out of every set of 12 he recieves are rejected as theyre not up to his standards.
Plenty of his pro bats floating around then!!
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I would bear in mind as well all the sponsor cares about is their branding on the bat so nowadays, unlike back-in-the-day, anyone can make a bat for a Pro,and they use what they like-just sticker them up.
So unless the pro physically handed me his bat and said 'you need it more than I do it's yours' I wouldn't personally believe anyone when it comes to pro-bats
If your also referring to some manufacturers-they all do it it's not one in particular-starting to sell higher grade bats to the general public I've said it before or here and i'll say it again.... marketing...
and it almost certainly works, so from that point of view-successful selling.
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I concur with thoughts here
the term "pro" or "players" is generally used by retailors or manufacturers to help sell the bat for more
As soon as a bat is labelled it was for X player the price goes up 15%
For me unless its match used by the player its not one of their bats as they may have just looked at it or it was a failed attempt by a maker
Its all spin but loads on here fall for "it was made for x player so its better than Joe Public can get, but I can so I can sell it for a special price just for you"
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Here is how I categorize them.
Pro Bats - Bats made for Pro's and actually used by them, very rare to come across as the Pros are using them, if they give it away then it is either in bad shape (broken, falling apart) or you are a very good friend or does not fully meet their specs - These are the only pro bats that I want to get.
Pro rejects - bats made by brands for Pros they pick x out of total and rest are left behind. Probably very good bats and designed in accordance to the Pro's, they are not pro bats as he/she never used it but was meant for them. No way of validating unless you were the one who drove down with bats and he/she picked a few and left the rest. So could be true or could be just a way to make more money.
everything else is a branding/marketing exercise, to some extent so are pro rejects.
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They reject because it is deemed not pro enough for the pro maybe !!!!
But each to there own I have a few "pro bats" and my bats are just as good as so will many of yours
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It doesn't matter how we name it, whether pro or players, for me in the past one year there has been a spike with some incredibly big bats for the weights available not only for pro players but also to the end users.
50 mm edge with weight around 2.10 was unheard of. Now 40 - 45 mm is getting common that too without concaving for a decent weight bat.
Would love to know from forum experts/ bat manufacturers like B3 what exactly changed which has led to such big bats. Is this a sudden spurge of light weight clefts available in this period or there has been a change in the technology.
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^ The lumber sellers are (probably) cutting the clefts differently resulting in bigger clefts /fewer clefts per tree. Smaller clefts meant more clefts per tree hence more bats for the bat manufacturers.
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I have bats that came from the player's kit bag and autographed but unused (no ball marks). These bats have amazing ping. Some of the high end bats purchased from retailers perform extremely well after the break-in period but my players bats are still my match bats, they have incredible rebound and handles feel great too.
I also think it depends on the bat manufacturer and their method of selecting what they consider are "player" bats. I have seen bats picked for the national sides and, again, they perform like trampolines!
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^ The lumber sellers are (probably) cutting the clefts differently resulting in bigger clefts /fewer clefts per tree. Smaller clefts meant more clefts per tree hence more bats for the bat manufacturers.
In addition to price relationship, bigger the cleft means lower quantity with higher demand, thus, higher price.
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I agree with everyone, however, don't you notice that the number of pro-reject/bats/gift has drastically increased?
I can understand dryer bats lead to more breakage which means more replacement bats. As a manufacturer would make few bats for a player at time while he can only take X number of bats excess being reject.
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I have bats that came from the player's kit bag and autographed but unused (no ball marks). These bats have amazing ping. Some of the high end bats purchased from retailers perform extremely well after the break-in period but my players bats are still my match bats, they have incredible rebound and handles feel great too.
I also think it depends on the bat manufacturer and their method of selecting what they consider are "player" bats. I have seen bats picked for the national sides and, again, they perform like trampolines!
I have noticed that too. Not just they are big, they ping much better right out of the box.
But whether its used by a pro or rejected doesnt matter becasue the cleft used is different in my opinion. Even if its rejected by a pro you are still getting a better bat and might suit you more than the pro. I lost the pic showing Rahane's bat, was ugly as hell but was massive and ball flying off the bat.
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I have bats that came from the player's kit bag and autographed but unused (no ball marks). These bats have amazing ping. Some of the high end bats purchased from retailers perform extremely well after the break-in period but my players bats are still my match bats, they have incredible rebound and handles feel great too.
I also think it depends on the bat manufacturer and their method of selecting what they consider are "player" bats. I have seen bats picked for the national sides and, again, they perform like trampolines!
I have noticed this too! I have received bats which were used by them and then gifted to me while some which were in their kit-bag until I got them. So, they do perform better than standard bat(s) but latter bats do reach to that point at one stage.
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It doesn't take a rocket scientist...most of the over sized bats are either over dried or under pressed or a combination of both.
IMO, people just forgot about the longevity factor lately. Most of us are more than happy if a bat lasts just one season.
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It doesn't matter how we name it, whether pro or players, for me in the past one year there has been a spike with some incredibly big bats for the weights available not only for pro players but also to the end users.
50 mm edge with weight around 2.10 was unheard of. Now 40 - 45 mm is getting common that too without concaving for a decent weight bat.
Would love to know from forum experts/ bat manufacturers like B3 what exactly changed which has led to such big bats. Is this a sudden spurge of light weight clefts available in this period or there has been a change in the technology.
Somewhere i read the drying technique has changed. older drying method used to leave lot of moisture in center which is not the case with newer method.
I have not seen it nor i am expert but makes sense somewhat.
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Somewhere i read the drying technique has changed. older drying method used to leave lot of moisture in center which is not the case with newer method.
I have not seen it nor i am expert but makes sense somewhat.
the expectation also about how long you expect your bat to last also has changed, think about your own bat, what do you realistically expect?
and let's be totally honest....much as I personally don't like the massive over dried bats today for £500, if I was offered a bit of extra performance but I would only get 2 years out of it........I'd be tempted....because you want every advantage you can get.... :)
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^ The lumber sellers are (probably) cutting the clefts differently resulting in bigger clefts /fewer clefts per tree. Smaller clefts meant more clefts per tree hence more bats for the bat manufacturers.
Incorrect the size are the same from the biggest sellers Js Wrights remains the same and oversized from a few others also have always been around just maybe the forum sees a few more.
I did a experiment the other day many people in this forum lie about edge size of there bats too.
You can map any bat from the side I did a experiment the other day and low and behold plus 40mm edge bat turned out to be sub 40.
Drying has not changed either content is mositure is the same it ever been from us I can't speak for others though.
GN cut there own trees so get what they want
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Quite apart from the drying techniques, big bats = fashion. Normal size bats at 2.7 have been around for years and used to be the height of cool as I remember! Makes sense to me that if you can make a 35mm edge/60mm spine bat at 2.7 then a massive edge 2.11 bat of the current trend type isn't much different, just the trends have changed - if consumers want massive edges instead of super light bats now then that's going to be what the manufacturers will use those clefts for.
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Quite apart from the drying techniques, big bats = fashion. Normal size bats at 2.7 have been around for years and used to be the height of cool as I remember! Makes sense to me that if you can make a 35mm edge/60mm spine bat at 2.7 then a massive edge 2.11 bat of the current trend type isn't much different, just the trends have changed - if consumers want massive edges instead of super light bats now then that's going to be what the manufacturers will use those clefts for.
bingo
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umm.. still not convinced.. earlier bigger edges were a compromise with amount of concaving / spine height. Recent bats I have seen are with a decent spine height/ massive edges and virtually no concaving.
There is only a difference of 113 gms between a 2.7 and 2.11 bat but here we are talking about almost double the edge size with a good spine height and no concaving. All these bats are standard SH and normal width so I am really curious to know how can a 2.11 bat can be made with 50 mm edge and 60 mm spine from a standard cleft. It doesn't matter how the cleft is cut as bigger the cleft means bigger the weight.
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umm.. still not convinced.. earlier bigger edges were a compromise with amount of concaving / spine height. Recent bats I have seen are with a decent spine height/ massive edges and virtually no concaving.
There is only a difference of 113 gms between a 2.7 and 2.11 bat but here we are talking about almost double the edge size with a good spine height and no concaving. All these bats are standard SH and normal width so I am really curious to know how can a 2.11 bat can be made with 50 mm edge and 60 mm spine from a standard cleft. It doesn't matter how the cleft is cut as bigger the cleft means bigger the weight.
You can't get 50mm out of a standard cleft not possible with pressing you struggle to get above 42mm from a standard.
Where are all these bats with 50mm edges at 2-11 I don't see many on sale at all if any
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umm.. still not convinced.. earlier bigger edges were a compromise with amount of concaving / spine height. Recent bats I have seen are with a decent spine height/ massive edges and virtually no concaving.
There is only a difference of 113 gms between a 2.7 and 2.11 bat but here we are talking about almost double the edge size with a good spine height and no concaving. All these bats are standard SH and normal width so I am really curious to know how can a 2.11 bat can be made with 50 mm edge and 60 mm spine from a standard cleft. It doesn't matter how the cleft is cut as bigger the cleft means bigger the weight.
Well there's at least two of us then! I don't get this either...previously I've been told you occasionally get a very light cleft naturally and so a small amount of bats could be made with very large profiles but without the huge concaving of a couple of years ago...
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You can't get 50mm out of a standard cleft not possible with pressing you struggle to get above 42mm from a standard.
Where are all these bats with 50mm edges at 2-11 I don't see many on sale at all if any
Edge size has changed at lot thou hasn't it? 25 or 30 MM. edges was considered fairly big and now it's being pushed to 40mm -still at a reasonable weight... Is this right? :)
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I agree with everyone, however, don't you notice that the number of pro-reject/bats/gift has drastically increased?
Could this be because pros are consuming more bats than they used to leading to more rejects? Older bats used to last longer so pros needed less bats per year??
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So show me where I can buy a 2-11 full profile bat at 50mm edge and 60mm spine
I have taken a 350 standard cleft and can tell you most you can get is 40mm with a 67mm full profile you could if plained and very lightly pressed get edge I think to 42mm but reduce spine that is for 2-8 bat
So potentially with oversized I could move the extra 7mm on the spine and move to the edge so I could potentially get a 45-47mm edge with around 60mm spine.
Only other way is over drying as 350 is nearly as low as it goes
Or if you wanted around 2-14 just cut the handle in and use it as a cleft but a pressed normal cleft from js wrights will not produce much more than 42mm edge
Could not care if your convinced or not that's the truth behind it.
Yes oversized clefts can produce bigger bats as you can get bigger spine/edged or both but standard clefts can not produce the big bats
Now over drying bats is not something b3 or I suspect any uk maker will do as in the past I have ran experiments and got my bats down to around 6 per cent and the longevity is massively changed
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Everyone is producing bats with fuller profile, 35-40 mm edges, ~60 mm spine, not just the asian brands...
Something has definitely changed. Either the batmaking technology, drying or the clefts itself. the bats were never so big just around 10 years ago. Even SRT's 3lb bat he used in early 90s was half the size.
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Incorrect the size are the same from the biggest sellers Js Wrights remains the same and oversized from a few others also have always been around just maybe the forum sees a few more.
I did a experiment the other day many people in this forum lie about edge size of there bats too.
You can map any bat from the side I did a experiment the other day and low and behold plus 40mm edge bat turned out to be sub 40.
Drying has not changed either content is mositure is the same it ever been from us I can't speak for others though.
GN cut there own trees so get what they want
So what is the source of the larger clefts? Larger than usual/normal tree trunks?
Regarding GN, my Gray-Nicolls Warner bat has a 53mm edge. It is also "pressed". How is their cleft (other than size) different than JS Wright?
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So what is the source of the larger clefts? Larger than usual/normal tree trunks?
Regarding GN, my Gray-Nicolls Warner bat has a 53mm edge. It is also "pressed". How is their cleft (other than size) different than JS Wright?
Js wright sell clefts only. That's there business.
They cut a tree and cleft it into say 6 pieces down the tree. Get as many clefts as they can to sell.
Gray nicolls grow and cut there own tree, selling bats is there business. Majority will be cut into 6 pieces, but the odd tree cut into 4 pieces to give a larger cleft to work with to give larger edges and spine on those bats certain bats.
Some bats designs and kids designs don't need a larger cleft, hence all not being oversized.
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Js wright sell clefts only. That's there business.
They cut a tree and cleft it into say 6 pieces down the tree. Get as many clefts as they can to sell.
Gray nicolls grow and cut there own tree, selling bats is there business. Majority will be cut into 6 pieces, but the odd tree cut into 4 pieces to give a larger cleft to work with to give larger edges and spine on those bats certain bats.
Some bats designs and kids designs don't need a larger cleft, hence all not being oversized.
That was my original point as well - larger clefts are a result of fewer slices of the wood and that the lumberers like JSWright just produce standard sized clefts that maximize their numbers and hence profits. Big sized clefts result in fewer clefts of the same tree.
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So, if you want a big cleft, go to Kippax or GN.
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Or somebody who gets clefts from kippax !!!!!
Ps GN get very limited as you and Smiley can attest to !!!
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I have had a Warner bat match used by him in my hands it was 2-11 and biggest bat I have seen must have been overdried but still right up there in mental terms in everyway
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I have two bats with 43-45mm edges at 2'11.
One is a light cleft that only comes along once a year and is 43mm edge,70mm spine with no concaving. The other has a 45mm spine and 60mm edge, 400 density and only a little concaving on the hitting area, its made by b3 ;-)
However, both are harrow length!
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Folks, I am just curious about the process, bats, and clefts hence the questions and (hopefully) a lively discussion. Not taking a swipe at anyone or being negative. Not my intention. :)
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It's fashion. Physics says F=mass x A
So edge size is irrelevant - as long as mass (weight) is the same.
That said, I still want these big pieces of timber...cuz it's fun!
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Without getting too far into it, i dont think f=ma covers it. As with bats and their "ping" youd have to look at the coefficient of restitution, or the way a ball responds off the surface, between smaller/older bats and newer bigger bats?
Atleast for the way a ball behaves off the bat, eg the way/ speed it pings off
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You need to speak to streaky it about weight all about weight.
All things equal a heavier bat hits the ball further simple as that I'm not going into it it been covered many times.
look at the 81 ashes watch Botham with a heavy toothpick smack it out o the park
Weight weight weight maybe another blog for @The Doctor
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I thought 'Player bats' sold on the shelves were of the same spec of the pro player being sponsored by the Brand. GM sells 'Ross Taylor' editions and these are suppose to the replica of Ross Taylor's actual bat in regards to profile, pick-up and weight. Well, this was my impression.
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It was pressed more those bats of the 80s but still had decent edges and no concaving. Pressing and drying I would of thought explains most of the difference in size. From then and now. How we have got to 50mm edges from 40mm, I think is more to do with heavier bats and possibly better drying processes. What's the average moisture level in a bat now?
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I thought 'Player bats' sold on the shelves were of the same spec of the pro player being sponsored by the Brand. GM sells 'Ross Taylor' editions and these are suppose to the replica of Ross Taylor's actual bat in regards to profile, pick-up and weight. Well, this was my impression.
Replica size and profile, it doesn't mention weight anywhere, the weights of these bats vary
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We are at 12 nick as most are in the uk
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In my limited experience a pro bat means nothing. When working with Andrew Kember we had a few pro players and MCC players that would visit to have there bats made and some would take bats that were G2 others wanted 12 straight grains etc. A pro bat is how is feels to the player and how it performs. A pro is good enough to find the middle on any bat regardless of grade so it's how it feels.
The term pro bat is in my view now a marketing term the same is G1++ it's a non existent grade until the shop or bat maker or brand receive it and grade it themselves.
I could buy clefts tomorrow and label them pro grade, players etc.
Pro's do not all use or want the same in a bat so the term pro bat is a gimmick in the main unless you get a bat that was generally made for and used by a pro.
That's my view anyway.
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Isn't there the story regarding Shane Watson and gunn and Moore.
He gave them a description of the sort of bat he was after(flare shape it turned into)
They made him one out of a 404 cleft as they didn't want to waste a ole cleft if they got it wrong.
He loved the thing pick up and weight was superb as was the ping. Gunn and Moore said right we'll make some out of ole clefts, and Watson said don't bother, stickered up the 404 and used that for some time.
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I would guess the placebo effect has a great deal to do with the feel of some "pro-bats".
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Some of the "players" bats on shelves here in Aus for the 2015/16 were laughable. I won't mention the brand but they were just woeful and sported enormous price tags. I'm not sure who, exactly, falls for this rubbish.
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Some of the "players" bats on shelves here in Aus for the 2015/16 were laughable. I won't mention the brand but they were just woeful and sported enormous price tags. I'm not sure who, exactly, falls for this rubbish.
Let me guess ... Puma ??
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Some of the "players" bats on shelves here in Aus for the 2015/16 were laughable. I won't mention the brand but they were just woeful and sported enormous price tags. I'm not sure who, exactly, falls for this rubbish.
Most of the bats this season has been looking woeful, however one of the prettier bats I've seen this summer was at A-Mart of all places
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You can't get 50mm out of a standard cleft not possible with pressing you struggle to get above 42mm from a standard.
Where are all these bats with 50mm edges at 2-11 I don't see many on sale at all if any
Yes true but 50 mm edge bat even with a rare light weight cleft was unheard of some time back. If I look around the threads in last few months most SS bats are coming with 42-44 mm edge and more importantly with no concaving at a decent spine! There shape hasn't changed much but their bats used to be concaved for such weights. Same goes with other big companies recently. A year back edge size was 35 -38mm to be called massive (without concaving) now it is around 5 to10 mm more with out concaving and with the same spine height. At least this is what I feel.
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Players bats or pro bats sounds really good to ears but to be honest if it comes directly from a player himself then you can rely on the overall performance but you just can't rely on what retailers comment to sell their stuff. Some bats look great but what's the point of classifying a bat a pro bat just for its facial looks? For example I have Virat Kohli personal profile made from two makers in India and they look and priced entirely different and I can claim them as a an international pro bats but I know they are not made for him that's for me so may be a custom/customise bat term sounds reliable and more practical to me.
Pics for reference.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160202/0245cb59f266d0e59743e01623bcfe55.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160202/8d5473e0dba9eabc2ae286431f9fd3ae.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160202/8bba6d9cbe349983f57656af1a32e61a.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160202/a1dbcc53fd66c5d56ab3aff13172eef0.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160202/df44a62cfa960403d85212ea0a55f5fd.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160202/c12b739f2a13cbd06982e4ab6b1d2b1c.jpg)
So my point is if it comes from the players bag or a very reliable source yes it is a pro bat else everything is business as usual.
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Players bats or pro bats sounds really good to ears but to be honest if it comes directly from a player himself then you can rely on the overall performance but you just can't rely on what retailers comment to sell their stuff. Some bats look great but what's the point of classifying a bat a pro bat just for its facial looks? For example I have Virat Kohli personal profile made from two makers in India and they look and priced entirely different and I can claim them as a an international pro bats but I know they are not made for him that's for me so may be a custom/customise bat term sounds reliable and more practical to me.
So my point is if it comes from the players bag or a very reliable source yes it is a pro bat else everything is business as usual.
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Nice bats. Who are the two makers ;) ?
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That's SS and SM mate.
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(http://i68.tinypic.com/169keae.jpg)
direct from SS
Not a pro bat a pro shape though in that grade of willow....
Not mine either but great bats from SS
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direct from SS
Not a pro bat a pro shape though in that grade of willow....
Not mine either but great bats from SS
Do u know how to contact SS directly ??
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No
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Do u know how to contact SS directly ??
info@sscricket.com
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info@sscricket.com
Thanks will check it out.
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Do u know how to contact SS directly ??
cricmart.in have direct contact to SS in india. i have been able to get good custom orders through them :)
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cricmart.in have direct contact to SS in india. i have been able to get good custom orders through them :)
Curious, what kind of customization have you done ??
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cricmart.in have direct contact to SS in india. i have been able to get good custom orders through them :)
What is the price?
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What is the price?
I emailed sales@sscricket.com and got a quote. Duck bill profile, 40mm edge size, 2lb10oz with double grip. Price with shipping to USA - 365 USD. They mentioned willow quality would be equivalent to SS Maximus or TON player edition.
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I emailed sales@sscricket.com and got a quote. Duck bill profile, 40mm edge size, 2lb10oz with double grip. Price with shipping to USA - 365 USD. They mentioned willow quality would be equivalent to SS Maximus or TON player edition.
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Wow..that seems expensive in my opinion. Especially when I know I can get a Maximus for pretty decent price conpared to this.
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I emailed sales@sscricket.com and got a quote. Duck bill profile, 40mm edge size, 2lb10oz with double grip. Price with shipping to USA - 365 USD. They mentioned willow quality would be equivalent to SS Maximus or TON player edition.
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There is a member on this forum who paid 500usd for a Kohli replica bat and the weight was 2.9 from SS directly..
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Wow..that seems expensive in my opinion. Especially when I know I can get a Maximus for pretty decent price conpared to this.
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I just contacted them for a quote. Was quite stunned when i heard the price ! Better off getting it elsewhere with the Maximus or Player edition stickers on it !
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I just contacted them for a quote. Was quite stunned when i heard the price ! Better off getting it elsewhere with the Maximus or Player edition stickers on it !
Couldn't agree more with you...[emoji1]
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