Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: SAF Bats on January 11, 2010, 10:09:50 AM
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Todays Question!!!!!!! Oh no, no more please, please enough, I here you cry.....
Anyways I will persist!!!
If you had a bat that had the middle in the right position and picked up how you like, does it make any difference how it is shaped?
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Yes.
I believe that the greater amount of willow behind the middle gives a better return.
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what about the effect the shape has on the pick up?
Yes it does but that is sorted, so hypothetically speaking pickup and middle is all good... Does it matter what shape the bat is?
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As long as it doesnt compromise performance or longevity - then no, it doesnt matter what shape it is......but i cant imagine it is as simple as that.
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......but i cant imagine it is as simple as that.
Why shouldn't it be?
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Because people will sometimes determine how good a bat is using their eyes - meaning, if the bat had a shape like a deformed monster then people may be put off......like comparing a skoda with a ferrari - they will both get you from a to b and both will do the same job, just one is more pleasing on the eye than the other. (Apologies for making such a poor point but im bored at work and therefore more than happy to type any old rubbish)
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not rubbish.... that is exactly why I asked the question
I think people will chose a bat by eye. They may completely ignore the best bat available in the shop because they think it looks a bit funky
I reckon they will consistently go back to the bat they originally liked at the start!
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I quite agree with SS. The first way that people judge the bats is on their shape (and stickers)as that is something they can see and feel immediately (some inputs for the mind to process at once and facilitate the decision making). Performance and is something that is not immediately quantifiable.
However, for a bat to pick-up, feel and have the middle positioned ideally, the shape will have to have some bearing on it as well.
The fact remains, that even if the bat ticks all the boxes in terms of pick-up, middle position etc. etc. most of the general public would end up making a decision based on the brand, stickers and shape (mostly due to comparison with peers in clubs or schools)
I think how the bat looks visually may effect the way someone ends up playing with it as it it is not the best looking bat shape abound it will play on your mind and may affect ur game.
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Have to disagree with you there Yash - if i pay £300 for a bat i expect it to perform superbly day in day out, if i pay £50 and it doesnt perform as well then it's bad luck - however, if this £50 bat performs just as well as a £300 bat with all the flash stickers then i would be far happier (i bought a random one off bat from an aussie who plays league cricket in england, cost me £50 and went like stink from day one - stickers were awful and shape not fantastic, but the grains were nice).
I think it the bat is cheap it may provide a person with more excuses for underperforming - i.e cheap bat = poor middle, hence why i got out.
It would play on mind more if i had £300 worth of willow in my hand and it wasnt going well.
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just took a few profile pic's will post in a second -
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Which one!!
Profile 1
(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2518/profile5.jpg)
Profile 2
(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/8199/profilebb.jpg)
Profile 3
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/736/profile1wt.jpg)
Profile 4
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5011/profile7c.jpg)
Profile 5
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5909/profile3zk.jpg)
Profile 6
(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5783/profile6.jpg)
Profile 7
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5970/profile8q.jpg)
Profile 8
(http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3452/profile4.jpg)
Profile 9
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9531/profile2j.jpg)
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9.
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The Jumbo looks relaitvely small in comparison to many modern bats - like profiles 1, 3 and 8. (predictable)
This is where you tell us that all of these bats have identical rebound qualities...............
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5....
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1, 5, 8 and 9.
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Wow thats some really interesting shapes! 3 is a really nice shape similar to the jumbo, that isn't one made by yourself though?
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It is made by Mr.Norbert - was that the one made for Mike by any chance? Got to love the scoops!
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scoops are 2 & 7 - 3 is a dual scoop [I dont sell them by the way]
so far profile 1, 5 & 8 are popular
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SS, I have seen guys chucking away Newbery and Salix bats for Kookaburra and Adidas bats.... as the latter are more popular brands..... it is not a question of a £300 or £50 bat..... most people (often under 20 yrs in age) would go for stickers and shapes as their first ref for evaluating a bat......
GM Icon bats are a good example. GM has had amazing success with the new Icon DMX range .....
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I like the shapes 3, 4 and 5
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SS, I have seen guys chucking away Newbery and Salix bats for Kookaburra and Adidas bats.... as the latter are more popular brands..... it is not a question of a £300 or £50 bat..... most people (often under 20 yrs in age) would go for stickers and shapes as their first ref for evaluating a bat......
GM Icon bats are a good example. GM has had amazing success with the new Icon DMX range .....
Whose using what and what is popular at your club is always going to bias your opinion. We had a big run on Charlie French bats in 2000 when one of the main run makers in the season started using one
By the way based on looks [not used one] the GM bats looks like one of the best balanced bats on the market
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Then you play at a rich club then Yash - people at my club would prefer to stick a ton of tape around it before buying a new one, i dont know many people who would just chuck away a bat.
I dont disagree about the aesthetics, they are extremely important, i just wasnt sure about the psyche of the individual when using the more flash bats compared a more basic looking bat.........cricket psychology would be an interesting area of investigation.
Just like you andy, about 6-7 years ago we had a massive influx of charlie french 2000's (i had two and they were duffers)
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I agree Norb adn that is the point I am trying to make as a very large % of the playing population would go by looks and shape to make their decision.
The GM Icon bats are really very good. I have one and the balance and pick-up is very good. The middle position though is not 100% to my liking.
Norb, how accurately can one predict the position of the sweet spot on a bat but just tapping it with a mallet at the shop? Also is it possible for the sweet spot will vary from one bat to another withing the same range/series?
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SS, I pay for Prestbury and yes it is one of the richer areas in Cheshire..... most of the lads who play with us are from homes with incomes in excess of £100,000 so yes that could be a factory influencing their purchasing behavious........
Most of the older players in the club use a Newbery and Salix (and some have their bats for almost 5 years!!!).
The most popular bats in our league happen to be Puma, Kookaburra, GM. Have seen quite a few Fusion Sports bats too...
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Norb, how accurately can one predict the position of the sweet spot on a bat but just tapping it with a mallet at the shop?
[This is how I do it] You can feel / hear a dead sound on a bat when you tap it [around the middle area and I mean a light tap] - once you find it whack it that is the main sweet spot area of the bat. Go to work on the bat around the area and you'll how big the area is... You may find out shop keepers may take exception to whacking it so go easy :D
You'll need something to compare it against unless you have good muscle memory and therefore can remember how the mallet feels on a good bat
Also is it possible for the sweet spot will vary from one bat to another withing the same range/series?
Yes, you generally find the main sweet spot [out of the screws shots] is about 1 inch-ish away from the main meat of the bat. This sweet spot is related to the pickup and as pickup changes from bat to bat they can't all be same
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You learn something new everyday, (quite literally with this masterclass)
May i be excused for lunch , i need to go to the toiler sir??
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Norb,
Can i ask your opinion on the shape of M&H Distinction bat?? Its unlike any other ive seen.
Have you seen it???
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As in tennis, you can consider there being two sweet spots on a cricket bat. One is a performance, or nodal, sweet spot where the sum of the amplitudes of the three dominant vibration modes is a minimum i.e. absorption of impact energy is minimised. The second is a comfort sweet spot known as the Centre of Percussion, where the forces of rotation and translation cancel out (excluding rotations for off-centre hits). The COP is rarely in the same place as the nodal sweet spot, and usually slightly above. By this reasoning you will get the best batted ball speed from a shot that you will 'feel' a reaction in the hands, and a slightly reduced batted ball speed from a shot out of the COP, which most of call 'middling it'.
Heavy bats absorb less impact energy than light bats, and will likely have a larger nodal sweet spot, but mass distribution will effect size and position.
I have a paper which compares various profiles' performance against impact vibration modes, which I can email to those who are interested.
Talisman, I will respond to some of your questions shortly.
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I have a paper which compares various profiles' performance against impact vibration modes, which I can email to those who are interested.
I would be interested in a copy of this paper. PMed you my email id.
Thank you.
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http://www.globesports.net/acatalog/Millichamp___Hall_Distinction_Cricket_Bats.html
I saw one of these in Romida in Leatherhead a couple of weeks ago, they are some bat - and the profile is pretty unique.
I suspect that the volume of wood on the bat will have an impact on whether it is more desirable or not, hence the love of the SS Jumbo.
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if you get the chance, kerbdog@hotmail.com.
Thanks.
I wont claim to understand what you have written fully.....but i have tried to intepret the main points.
Would the two sweet spots, the nodal and comfort, be smaller on the mongoose as you cannot expect the ball to fly off the bat when you hit with the toe or the near the shoulder of the bat? The decreased lenght of the blade would surely mean that you have a smaller but more concentrated sweetspot with the chance of the sweetspots being closer together?
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Wouldnt have said that the bat was that unique - it's a brave shape from the bat maker as he leaves the edges small, but the reward is a bat that look huge and is pleasing on the eye. Had a chat with rob at m&h about it - he said it was one of the more difficult shapes to reprduce.
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I would like to have a look at it as well mate. alridd@hotmail.co.uk
Cheers
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As in tennis, you can consider there being two sweet spots on a cricket bat. One is a performance, or nodal, sweet spot where the sum of the amplitudes of the three dominant vibration modes is a minimum i.e. absorption of impact energy is minimised. The second is a comfort sweet spot known as the Centre of Percussion, where the forces of rotation and translation cancel out (excluding rotations for off-centre hits). The COP is rarely in the same place as the nodal sweet spot, and usually slightly above. By this reasoning you will get the best batted ball speed from a shot that you will 'feel' a reaction in the hands, and a slightly reduced batted ball speed from a shot out of the COP, which most of call 'middling it'.
Heavy bats absorb less impact energy than light bats, and will likely have a larger nodal sweet spot, but mass distribution will effect size and position.
I have a paper which compares various profiles' performance against impact vibration modes, which I can email to those who are interested.
Talisman, I will respond to some of your questions shortly.
Hand loads and the centre of precussion of a cricket bat?
edit: Actually it could be "The influence of impact vibration nodes and frequencies on cicket bat performance"
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Would the two sweet spots, the nodal and comfort, be smaller on the mongoose as you cannot expect the ball to fly off the bat when you hit with the toe or the near the shoulder of the bat? The decreased length of the blade would surely mean that you have a smaller but more concentrated sweetspot with the chance of the sweetspots being closer together?
Without doing the tests to verify, I can only put up this quote from the Mongoose Paper written by researcher at Imperial College:
"The Mongoose bats have vibration frequencies that are similar to the Woodworm. This is likely due to the consistency of materials and manufacture methods employed; the bats were all manufactured by the same manufacturer. The vibration energies were equivalent between the two bat designs up to 26 cm from the toe and
demonstrated that they had equivalent ‘sweet spots’. When the ball strikes above this point, the traditional design has a lower vibrational energy than the Mongoose. This is clearly due to the longer blade."
Looking at the vibration energy graphs in that paper and comparing with the Brooks paper I have, and assuming you consider the tested Woodworm bat as relatively standard, the sweet spot is slightly bigger on the Mongoose. However, the top section of the Mongoose should not play as well as the equivalent position on a standard bat as the graphs show higher impact energy absorbed. This may be countered to a degree by the higher mass behind the ball in the Mongoose at this point. Not played or netted with one yet, so perhaps some feedback from those who have may corroborate or oppose this.
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I have performed an unscientific study with nearly every bat I've tried which consists of netting with it for 2 hours so give it a fair chance, no use of other bats while netting to help get used to it, then swap back to match bat as a comparison. I also have balls hand fed to me to hit baseball style to find distance possible from the bat and then use it for catching practice which gives me a good chance to hit balls along the length of the blade and replicate the sort of power you get hand hammering with a wooden mallet.
Going back to the shape if the pick up and dead weight are ideal I have had first hand experience of this very problem. I had ordered 2 Lavers and they turned up 7 weeks late on the morning of the very last match of the year. I opened the box to find them sent loose in the box all the way from New Zealand and when I took them out I found the shape was nothing like the one ordered. I was in a rage at getting very late bats with big dents in the spine and not as ordered. Having a temper I vowed to take the Firefly with me and smash it to pieces at the game, very grown up....
The pick up and dead weigh were spot on and so when it was my turn to bat which came quickly as we had the top order knocked over I took it out without even bouncing a ball on it, let alone knocking it in. I hit a couple of big drives/slogs and noticed it had no feel to it but it really did go, I finished with 158no and the bat did not have a dent in it as unbeknown to me it had been knocked in by James. I then promised to be a bit more opened minded to shapes as it was not something I would have gone for but ended up loving.
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Looking at the vibration energy graphs in that paper and comparing with the Brooks paper I have, and assuming you consider the tested Woodworm bat as relatively standard, the sweet spot is slightly bigger on the Mongoose. However, the top section of the Mongoose should not play as well as the equivalent position on a standard bat as the graphs show higher impact energy absorbed. This may be countered to a degree by the higher mass behind the ball in the Mongoose at this point. Not played or netted with one yet, so perhaps some feedback from those who have may corroborate or oppose this.
Agreed but is it not always the case with testing you can only assume the bat or bats you are comparing against are fairly consistent in there performance. It does however give you an insight into what you could potentially achieve but it effectively tells you this is better then this one in this test. Another bat pressed differently, slightly different willow etc etc may have been better.
I think, as you alluded to, that the mongoose is all about swing speed more then anything else and it just so happened that it had a slightly better sweet spot on the day.
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I have performed an unscientific study with nearly every bat I've tried which consists of netting with it for 2 hours so give it a fair chance, no use of other bats while netting to help get used to it, then swap back to match bat as a comparison. I also have balls hand fed to me to hit baseball style to find distance possible from the bat and then use it for catching practice which gives me a good chance to hit balls along the length of the blade and replicate the sort of power you get hand hammering with a wooden mallet.
Going back to the shape if the pick up and dead weight are ideal I have had first hand experience of this very problem. I had ordered 2 Lavers and they turned up 7 weeks late on the morning of the very last match of the year. I opened the box to find them sent loose in the box all the way from New Zealand and when I took them out I found the shape was nothing like the one ordered. I was in a rage at getting very late bats with big dents in the spine and not as ordered. Having a temper I vowed to take the Firefly with me and smash it to pieces at the game, very grown up....
The pick up and dead weigh were spot on and so when it was my turn to bat which came quickly as we had the top order knocked over I took it out without even bouncing a ball on it, let alone knocking it in. I hit a couple of big drives/slogs and noticed it had no feel to it but it really did go, I finished with 158no and the bat did not have a dent in it as unbeknown to me it had been knocked in by James. I then promised to be a bit more opened minded to shapes as it was not something I would have gone for but ended up loving.
I think you hit that nail on the head with that post. A properly pressed and prepared bat will go no matter what shape it is. That said there are gains to be had elsewhere but the most significant thing I am beginning to realise is the willow, the preparation and the confidence of the player
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Hand loads and the centre of precussion of a cricket bat?
Norbair, assuming you are asking whether the hands/gloves affect the COP?
Current thinking on COP in relation to bat/ball sports is a slight can-of-worms, due to a paper by Hatze. However, there is a COP on the bat when impacted in a freely suspended set-up. When you add a human to the equation the location of the true fulcrum becomes tricky to pin down without the assistance of biomechanics lab with a motion capture system (something we may well be doing soon with some T20 bats to investigate kinematic differences against standard bats). Without knowing where your fulcrum is, you can't pin-point the true COP because it's about balancing the acting forces around a fulcrum.
Pro-tennis players always try to hit on the nodal sweet spot to get maximum performance and minimum discomfort from vibration, and are less bothered by translation/rotation movements from the impact as they are conditioned to control these. This should be same for cricket.
So, I suppose in conclusion, while COP is one type of sweet spot, it isn't part of the consideration in designing bats since it is heavily dependent on the person using it. The interest rightly focuses on the nodal sweet spot. That said, if you can find a bat whose nodal sweet spot is aligned to a COP, it should in theory 'feel' almost perfect. In reality you will also need the best willow and the best pressing.
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Nope I was thinking it might have been the article about the profiles you were talking about...
S Fisher, J Vogwell and M P Ansell - Hand loads and the centre of precussion of a cricket bat?
It is more to do with Scoops mind you and "The influence of impact vibration nodes and frequencies on cicket bat performance" does have a few more profiles in it
That said, if you can find a bat whose nodal sweet spot is aligned to a COP, it should in theory 'feel' almost perfect. In reality you will also need the best willow and the best pressing.
Always good to have the best willow and the best pressing :-) For a custom made bat - you can get a good idea on how to shape a bat from the players grip on the handle
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Doesnt this also highlight the importance of a good shaped handle - oval handles being linked to reducing rotation compared to round handles.
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Yes technically it will reduce twist and therefore energy loss
We've digressed a bit [well a lot] here though :-D
Also I think it is slightly unfair we talk about the mongoose more often then not
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This thread is hurting my tiny little mind. Me want cricket bat, hit ball far.
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This thread is hurting my tiny little mind. Me want cricket bat, hit ball far.
Go to page 1 scroll down and choose a Profile :-)
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I think 1,3 and 6 appeal the most.
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Agreed - when you started the topic you obviusoly had something in mind you wanted to get across - have you had the chance to do this yet, or was it purely to stimulate discussion?
I expect you found that people gravitated towards the larger and chunkier profiles. If you think back to the early 80's - the bat profiles are wafer thin compared to nowadays, yet still people would clear the boundary with ease - suggesting that timing the ball right in the nodal/comfort sweetspot is the most important aspect of batting, not necessarily the size of the sweetspot or depth of the bat.
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Agreed - when you started the topic you obviusoly had something in mind you wanted to get across - have you had the chance to do this yet, or was it purely to stimulate discussion?
I expect you found that people gravitated towards the larger and chunkier profiles. If you think back to the early 80's - the bat profiles are wafer thin compared to nowadays, yet still people would clear the boundary with ease - suggesting that timing the ball right in the nodal/comfort sweetspot is the most important aspect of batting, not necessarily the size of the sweetspot or depth of the bat.
I won't tell you just yet why I started the thread but it isn't for techie reasons. Bit of research, a bit of a discussion and a bit educational stuff for everyone who cares to read and join in. A bit like the others I started recently it is working well at the moment
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I have been thinking about your questions and contrary to the views I expressed from the customer point of view, my view is that as long as the bat goes well and feels good, I am not overly bothered about the shape or stickers on the bat.
In most cases I pick my bats based on the pick-up and feel and then tap them to see how the middle responds. The shape or the would obviously determine the pick-up and the position of the middle but is not that important.
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If you had a bat that had the middle in the right position and picked up how you like, does it make any difference how it is shaped?
Bat aesthetics can be very important because the player plays best when psychologically 'in the zone'. He may not find this place if he looks down and is worrying about the size of his edges. This is why we have custom bat makers, because hopefully you will get top performance from the bat and man because he loves his personalised bat. Hey presto.
For me, I'm not good enough to worry about my bat shape, I've got other issues - they're called bowlers, fielders, and not watching the ball.
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The Jumbo looks relaitvely small in comparison to many modern bats - like profiles 1, 3 and 8. (predictable)
Yep the Jumbo [or not so Jumbo] is about 2.6 ish I think!!!!!!
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I do like profile 1 and 4.
But i'm with mdl on this, too much info for my puny brain to take!
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Pretty amazing though if you look back at bats years and years ago as to how much wood and edge size there is in the bats compared with your huge bats nowadays....
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Profile 5
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I think that people like and its far more pleasing on the eye the way a laver is shaped than most other bats, I want to look down and see a lovely shaped piece of wood when im a the crease
Profile 1 btw.
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I love all the science but the truth is that despite the studies so far I can guarantee to produce a better bat by using experience in the making. I have had bats handmade for me by many, Millichamp, Laver, Keeley, Sains, Miller and many more but the first time I got told to have something other than my request was by David Banks at Stac. I told him what I wanted and even though he does not machine his bats and simply shapes and sands them like many of the custom bat makers here on the forum he taught me a lesson. He told me that with my size and the way I play my shots I was having the wrong shape and proceeded to make something else shape and weight wise. I was disgusted as I stood there watching my chosen cleft being hacked up but the resulting bat scored me more runs as I was hitting the ball better and further. I'm sure that the heavier weight and lower middle was the reason and the shape was much like the M&H Solution about 10+ years ago.
For all the shapes I've got my preferred ones for my style of batting.
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4,5 & 6!
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Norb,
Can i ask your opinion on the shape of M&H Distinction bat?? Its unlike any other ive seen.
Have you seen it???
Low Toe'd bat, made for our low bounce pitches nowadays. Small edges to allow for more meat in spine area and should have good swing speed. Looks like pick up would be good-ish as the spine is quite high all the way up to the splice[maybe needs another grip for balance but who knows I never picked on up] Great bat for a front foot player or a slogger
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Todays Question!!!!!!! Oh no, no more please, please enough, I here you cry.....
Anyways I will persist!!!
If you had a bat that had the middle in the right position and picked up how you like, does it make any difference how it is shaped?
If i pick it up and the weight and pick up and balance are spot on and had a few hits with a mallet and all is well then I'm not that concerned with shape and edge size ? however id like the above in an Asian type profile with a bow and large profile and i would have everything i want ! in a cricket bat that is I'm more fussy with other things.
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If i pick it up and the weight and pick up and balance are spot on and had a few hits with a mallet and all is well then I'm not that concerned with shape and edge size ? however id like the above in an Asian type profile with a bow and large profile and i would have everything i want ! in a cricket bat that is I'm more fussy with other things.
Sound sensible getting a bat that picks up well, has a good middle, and is in your prefered shape :-)
edit: no love for the single scoop!!!! :-( 2 & 7
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7 is my bat and should not be shown on a public forum......
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Lost me ?!?
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Profile 5 :)
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I see now 1 or 5 for me.
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7 is my bat and should not be shown on a public forum......
without your patented picture chair?
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
nice bit of willow that I must find out who the supplier was!
5 is getting a few votes and so is the Laver I see [I should have removed the stickers 1st, maybe] - both are very different
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nice bit of willow that I must find out who the supplier was!
5 is getting a few votes and so is the Laver I see [I should have removed the stickers 1st, maybe] - both are very different
Like the overall size and shape of no 1 and the concave back is also what i like and the shape seems to flow nice all the way down the bat ? don't like fussy shapes which are either too thin at the shoulder or too thin at the toe if that makes any sense at all.
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yep it does and one of the reasons I still own it
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Are profile 7 and 2 nearly flat on the back? How do they play?
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got no idea I've not used either of them. But that is how the scoop was shaped
7 taps up really well though, 2 is a just one for my collection
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Profile 3 for me! Reminds me of my old dyna-drive, which I loved, but could just be my eysight!
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Ok let me tell you why I asked the question
The most important thing, I believe, is what you are happy with and believe in. If you are convinced that you have the best bat in world, then you have the best bat in the world. If some told you they were selling the best shaped bat in the world and you were a bit dubious about it. You may net it get yourself out a few times then you have no confidence in the bat