Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Kulli on February 19, 2018, 09:46:58 AM
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Always been a fair few mentions of counterbalances on here, and I see from all the bat photos that a fair number of members add them to their bats, but what I have always wondered about is the split over why.
I add 2-3 1-inch strips of grip under the grip on all my bats, but I do so because it sits nicely into the top of my top hand, and possibly because it helps with no grip slippage, especially if I have a bit old mow. I'm pretty sure the weight involved in 2-3 inches of chevron grip is insufficient to have any effect, and I've never really noticed any change in the feel of the bat after doing this.
I do understand that the general consensus though seems to be for a counterbalance (pretty sure that's the wrong word since the weight is still on the same side of any pivot point) where the idea is to add weight high up the bat in order to improve the pickup. This seems to be done by adding lead (other weights are available) to the knob of the bat, whether has lead tape or by hollowing out the top of the handle, etc.
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tried cut grips lead tape lead flashing ball bearing in the top of the handle plus solid lead wrapped around the top of the handle nothing been really effective in improving the pick up.
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tried cut grips lead tape lead flashing ball bearing in the top of the handle plus solid lead wrapped around the top of the handle nothing been really effective in improving the pick up.
I would be interested to heard from someone with some technical knowledge in the area about how much weight would have an effect, and what that effect would be.
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tried cut grips lead tape lead flashing ball bearing in the top of the handle plus solid lead wrapped around the top of the handle nothing been really effective in improving the pick up.
Agreed...tried the same to no effect. Maybe the pros get it done professionally so it works for them. The most notable for me is Kallis. Always seen him with a counter balance on his bats. Even the other day when he was playing in the Ice Cricket matches he had a counter balance on. Maybe its just a comfort thing. Probably has a placebo effect where the batsman feels that the bat is picking lighter.
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Once tried to alter the balance by cutting an inch of the top of the handle and placing a one thick piece of round steel on top of the handle the same diameter of the handle and covering it with a plastic cap of a spray can to hold it in place covered by a cut grip and tape it made no difference to the pick up.
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A counter balance shouldn't work because if you pick a bat up properly the pivot point is off the end of the handle.
If you think the pick up is improved, it is in your head and your mind playing tricks on you.
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A counter balance should work because if you pick a bat up properly the pivot point is off the end of the handle.
If you think the pick up is improved, it is in your head and your mind playing tricks on you.
I'm guessing that first sentence should be shouldn't?
If so then I would be inclined to agree. I don't see how adding more weight to one side of the pivot can do anything but make it harder to pick up. I guess it could affect the position of the middle etc, but that's beyond my technical knowledge.
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I'm the same as kulli I place a good roll of tape on the end of my handle for comfort because that's what I've always had as my set up, I agree it will add a little bit of weight to the handle but I wouldn't really notice the difference pick up wise
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Dan, fine, but the pivot point isn't your top hand. When you pick the bat up you push it back effectively from your shoulders. It isn't until you cock yours wrists that the pivot point moves.
Prior to that it is off the end of the handle.
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I used to do this all the time to my bats, 4 or 5 grip rings at the top of my handle, then tape over the top. I was absolutely convinced it made a difference until about 6 months ago when I just took them off one day to see how it was. Felt a bit weird not having them on there for about a dozen balls, then forgot all about it and have never put them back on.
I'm 99% sure it's a placebo effect, but I'm pretty sure 99% of cricket is just trying to convince yourself that something is working....
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Interesting @DorsetDan, but I would argue that the correct pivot is somewhere we’ll past the end of the bat, it is also arguable the elbow.
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Depends completely on individual technique whether it will help pickup feel I'd say, some do cock the bat up and down around their wrists, some don't. Biggest problem is that if you're adding noticable weight to your bat then regardless of how it helps you feel with pickup you still have to swing that weight when you play a shot. Best pickup in the world doesn't help if your swing is screwed up by the extra weight and you can't time the ball.
Re. pros - they're not all special cricket scientists calculating the optimum bat balance, mostly they're just better at cricket than you! However, the only public comment I've ever seen from one about counterbalance is McCullum saying his isn't a counterbalance, he just wants something to but his hand up against when swinging hard.
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I would be interested to heard from someone with some technical knowledge in the area about how much weight would have an effect, and what that effect would be.
From experiments that I have been involved in the past and modelling the counter balance, the weight would have to approx 1 foot away from the pivot point to have any effect on reducing the pick up of the bat, and therefore you can add as much lead tape as you wish to the end of the handle but you will never reduce the pick up weight (MOI). That said adding weights / extra grips will increase the difference between scale weight and pick up weight.
Therefore the only logical reason would be for hand location.
Streaky
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From experiments that I have been involved in the past and modelling the counter balance, the weight would have to approx 1 foot away from the pivot point to have any effect on reducing the pick up of the bat, and therefore you can add as much lead tape as you wish to the end of the handle but you will never reduce the pick up weight (MOI). That said adding weights / extra grips will increase the difference between scale weight and pick up weight.
Therefore the only logical reason would be for hand location.
Streaky
Interesting, thanks for the reply.
Next question, have you come up with a way to measure the difference between scale weight and pick up, I'm sick of reading for sale posts where a 3lbs 15oz bat picks up like 2'7.
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Great topic. Keep it going.
I have tried it and it really only is helpful with light bats where it seems to balance the pickup feel slightly. i do cock the wrists on pickup, . I only do it now to get my bats to the my personal goldilocks dead weight for me is (which is 2.8 3/4). It is all in the head for me but I just like bats 2.8-2.9. Too much weight and I lose my shape as i get tired, which incidentally is about the 3rd over these days.
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I put a couple of strips of cut grip on the top of the handle as i like to rest my top hand against it. If the top of the handle is too thin I feel like its going to fly out of my hand
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Always thought if you had old fashioned balance kitchen scales with weights and increased the number of weights on one side it tips the balance point used to think the same with cricket bats
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Interesting, thanks for the reply.
Next question, have you come up with a way to measure the difference between scale weight and pick up, I'm sick of reading for sale posts where a 3lbs 15oz bat picks up like 2'7.
Yes ;-)
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I put a couple of strips of cut grip on the top of the handle as i like to rest my top hand against it. If the top of the handle is too thin I feel like its going to fly out of my hand
Maybe this is part of it, I like the bottom hand to be normal sized and a bit oval, but I like the top hand to be mega skinny.
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just seen these guys on Instagram , no idea if it works but looks a great invention for counterbalance
https://www.instagram.com/probalancecricket/ (https://www.instagram.com/probalancecricket/)
any used this in NZ ?
tempted to order a few
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I have one bat my Newbery Pro that was made by TK for a county pro and it has a large counter balance and picks up very well does feel a few oz lighter than dead weight but I can't say that it's any better than my other bats that don't have a counter balance so would say it's a mental thing personally
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1. I like my bat length to be a size-6 bat (which I hold from the top of the handle). A rolled-up second grip, marks the spot where the SH bat length is size-6.
2. For my top hand, left, I like the handle to be thicker than the bottom. A rolled-up second grip for the top half of the handle achieve that for me. For my bottom hand (near the neck of the bat), right, I just pinch the handle so I prefer it to be thinner than the top part.
3. This setup, adds bat speed for bats that are bottom heavy and have a mid-low sweet spot. Any bat, like Amplus, which has a high sweet, this setup affects my timing. So, I don't use the rolled-up second grip for my high middle bats.
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Overall I think we need a new name for just whacking a grip locator on your bat to avoid confusion.
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I place half a grip donut style at very top. Starting doing this as had a counterbalance style handle and got into habit of resting top hand on it. Previously when I held bat at bottom of handle I used to cut top of handle off as it bruised my arm.
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This conversation is based off of a faulty premise. A counter balance absolutely helps and I am a big fan of them since I started using the Merlin. Have them on all my bats now. It definitely does NOT help the pick up. But have any of you measured your bat speeds with and without a counter balance.
I’ve tried range hitting with one, and without one. The difference is night and day.
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This conversation is based off of a faulty premise. A counter balance absolutely helps and I am a big fan of them since I started using the Merlin. Have them on all my bats now. It definitely does NOT help the pick up. But have any of you measured your bat speeds with and without a counter balance.
I’ve tried range hitting with one, and without one. The difference is night and day.
I have had the same experience but with only certain types of bats - mid-low/duck bill shaped bats. With high middle bats, XP80 or Amplus, it messes up my timing completely. I suspect, the high-middle bats are moving too fast since the added weight moves the balance-point of a bat further up (towards the handle).
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This conversation is based off of a faulty premise. A counter balance absolutely helps and I am a big fan of them since I started using the Merlin. Have them on all my bats now. It definitely does NOT help the pick up. But have any of you measured your bat speeds with and without a counter balance.
I’ve tried range hitting with one, and without one. The difference is night and day.
And the explanation for this is?
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This conversation is based off of a faulty premise. A counter balance absolutely helps and I am a big fan of them since I started using the Merlin. Have them on all my bats now. It definitely does NOT help the pick up. But have any of you measured your bat speeds with and without a counter balance.
I’ve tried range hitting with one, and without one. The difference is night and day.
If the counter balance doesn't assist the pickup what are you saying it helps with ?
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I have had the same experience but with only certain types of bats - mid-low/duck bill shaped bats. With high middle bats, XP80 or Amplus, it messes up my timing completely. I suspect, the high-middle bats are moving too fast since the added weight moves the balance-point of a bat further up (towards the handle).
The wonders of the Placebo effect!
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Sorry, but to me, it’s not in the mind. I’ve tried hundreds of shots on the ground with and without a counter balance. I get considerably more distance with a counterbalance, on the same bat. My guess is that the downswing is significantly larger on drives and full blown hoicks than it is in a stationary pick up situation i.e. the effects generated accumulate over a longer downswing.
Anyway, we seem to be basing this entire question on hypotheticals - my question is simple, has anyone actually measured thier bat speed with one. It’d be a very easy way of proving the theory.
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@Silver Bullet if what you say is true, why dont golf clubs have an equivalent to a counter balance. And why don't baseball bats?
Both those sports have significantly more computer based testing than cricket and dont use them...
(Sorry if this is aggressive, it isn't meant to be :) )
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has anyone actually measured thier bat speed with one. It’d be a very easy way of proving the theory.
Too many variables to be able to draw a meaningful conclusion, given the need for a human to swing the bat.
There is honestly no scientific reason why adding a counterbalance would increase bat speed, it just doesn't make sense. It might be able to make it pickup lighter (if you believe that school of thought), but to make a meaningful difference to the distance a ball travels? I really can't see it myself.
But hey, whatever works for you, works for you. There needn't be any logic behind it if it makes you feel as though you hit the ball further, cricket is 100% played in the mind.
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The wonders of the Placebo effect!
That is just cynicism!
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Sorry, but to me, it’s not in the mind. I’ve tried hundreds of shots on the ground with and without a counter balance. I get considerably more distance with a counterbalance, on the same bat. My guess is that the downswing is significantly larger on drives and full blown hoicks than it is in a stationary pick up situation i.e. the effects generated accumulate over a longer downswing.
Anyway, we seem to be basing this entire question on hypotheticals - my question is simple, has anyone actually measured thier bat speed with one. It’d be a very easy way of proving the theory.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of conjecture in the cricket world wrt to bats and equipment. User experience is pooh pooh'ed and non-conventional views/thinking is discouraged. I don't think we are likely to see any real research or study done to measure bat speed. Mob/crowd is just not interested. "Feel". "Grains". "Fish scale grips". That's all they want to see. Cricket users are not technology crazy. They want bats stinking with linseed oil smell, pads made from steel bars, and gloves they could use for boxing and self-protecting!
Give it time, somebody will write about hitting huge sixes with W. G. Grace's toothpick bat. :D
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Adding more weight to your bat = quite unlikely to make it easier to swing fast.