Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Bat Making => Topic started by: Kulli on February 28, 2018, 09:02:39 AM
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Hi was reading through some old threads on the train last night where @Ryan had experimented a bit with making different types of laminates, drilling a hole done the cleft Hunt style etc.
While it might not sell bets, I'd argue that it would on here, it makes for fascinating reading/viewing.
Anyone got any ideas for other possibilities that could be tried, and even better any budding batmakers keep to give some of the better ones a go?
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When I was a nipper playing cricket in the garden I always found that holding the bat backwards (spine forwards) always made for some interesting play. Neither I nor the fielders had a clue where the tennis ball would go. :)
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Hi was reading through some old threads on the train last night where @Ryan had experimented a bit with making different types of laminates, drilling a hole done the cleft Hunt style etc.
While it might not sell bets, I'd argue that it would on here, it makes for fascinating reading/viewing.
Anyone got any ideas for other possibilities that could be tried, and even better any budding batmakers keep to give some of the better ones a go?
I've been wondering about marking out a regular pattern (maybe 20mm gaps) on the back of an oversized cleft, and drilling out holes with a 4mm / 5mm drill bit. Drill out a lot of wood, but to a set depth, leaving around 25mm of thickness right across the face of the blade. My theory is that I could remove a considerable amount of weight, but leave enough structure to be able to cope with a hard ball. End up with a 'big' bat - full profile, no concaving, shaped to the limit of the new regs - but weighing maybe around 2lb 5 or 6, something like that.
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I've been wondering about marking out a regular pattern (maybe 20mm gaps) on the back of an oversized cleft, and drilling out holes with a 4mm / 5mm drill bit. Drill out a lot of wood, but to a set depth, leaving around 25mm of thickness right across the face of the blade. My theory is that I could remove a considerable amount of weight, but leave enough structure to be able to cope with a hard ball. End up with a 'big' bat - full profile, no concaving, shaped to the limit of the new regs - but weighing maybe around 2lb 5 or 6, something like that.
@JK Lewis , I have an idea for you and it could make you money: invent a mechanical system for measuring and grading bat ping. You can collect royalties off your invention from the bat makers who will use it to measure and grade bat ping. This invention will standardize the ever elusive and subjective bat "ping"! It will also help bring the prices down for, us, consumers. You can name the unit of measurement of the ping as you deem fit. Imagine the possibilities.
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@JK Lewis , I have an idea for you and it could make you money: invent a mechanical system for measuring and grading bat ping. You can collect royalties off your invention from the bat makers who will use it to measure and grade bat ping. This invention will standardize the ever elusive and subjective bat "ping"! It will also help bring the prices down for, us, consumers. You can name the unit of measurement of the ping as you deem fit. Imagine the possibilities.
Plot twist: what if I told you this already exists...
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@JK Lewis , I have an idea for you and it could make you money: invent a mechanical system for measuring and grading bat ping. You can collect royalties off your invention from the bat makers who will use it to measure and grade bat ping. This invention will standardize the ever elusive and subjective bat "ping"! It will also help bring the prices down for, us, consumers. You can name the unit of measurement of the ping as you deem fit. Imagine the possibilities.
Ah, the mystery of 'ping'! How sad it would be if there was a tool available that negated all the arguments that we so enjoy! :)
I'm pretty sure it could be done though, with a machine that mimics the action of knocking a ball up off a bat face. Rather like one of those tester machines for chairs or drawers that IKEA have on display. One would just need to remove the variables, so that the 'knock' was completely standardised, and each result could be measured. I like the idea of a special unit of measurement very much. How about 'pongs'?
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I've been wondering about marking out a regular pattern (maybe 20mm gaps) on the back of an oversized cleft, and drilling out holes with a 4mm / 5mm drill bit. Drill out a lot of wood, but to a set depth, leaving around 25mm of thickness right across the face of the blade. My theory is that I could remove a considerable amount of weight, but leave enough structure to be able to cope with a hard ball. End up with a 'big' bat - full profile, no concaving, shaped to the limit of the new regs - but weighing maybe around 2lb 5 or 6, something like that.
@JK Lewis I like the theory, reminds me of the Hunts County Modulus with the cutouts and honeycomb insert in the back of the blade. Maybe even try and work some extra rigidity in with the way you take the wood out, that's an idea that's got me ticking!
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@JK Lewis I like the theory, reminds me of the Hunts County Modulus with the cutouts and honeycomb insert in the back of the blade. Maybe even try and work some extra rigidity in with the way you take the wood out, that's an idea that's got me ticking!
I've never seen a Modulus, I might have to go to see Steve at Hunts and ask if he has one. Probably somewhat superior to my efforts with a Bosch hammer drill tbh! It's too damn cold to hang out in the garage right now, so this project will have to wait for a few months yet.
Tell us more about the ping machine.
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Ah, the mystery of 'ping'! How sad it would be if there was a tool available that negated all the arguments that we so enjoy! :)
I'm pretty sure it could be done though, with a machine that mimics the action of knocking a ball up off a bat face. Rather like one of those tester machines for chairs or drawers that IKEA have on display. One would just need to remove the variables, so that the 'knock' was completely standardised, and each result could be measured. I like the idea of a special unit of measurement very much. How about 'pongs'?
Call the "special unit of measurement" JKL-Unit or JKL-Balls. "This bat is rated 4 out of 5 JKL-Balls". :D
The machine should be small and easy to carry, like the vernier (sp?) callipers. How about a spring loaded gizmo whose frame sits flush on the bats and the spring loaded prong strikes off the face of the bat? The trick would be to measure the deflection and correlate to a 5.5 oz ball going a certain distance.
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@JK Lewis liking your idea a lot but why worry about the new Regs that will not affect 98% of your Customers for at least another 3 Years . Any light oversized Clefts that are not going to be used to make big bats by any manufacturers because they want to stick to the Regs Please Please call me I will gladly take them off your hands
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Plot twist: what if I told you this already exists...
That would be sweet like a twizzer effing twist!
https://www.hersheys.com/twizzlers/en_us/home.html (https://www.hersheys.com/twizzlers/en_us/home.html)
Why is it that the current grading system that is in place is ripping off consumers?
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Call the "special unit of measurement" JKL-Unit or JKL-Balls. "This bat is rated 4 out of 5 JKL-Balls". :D
The machine should be small and easy to carry, like the vernier (sp?) callipers. How about a spring loaded gizmo whose frame sits flush on the bats and the spring loaded prong strikes off the face of the bat? The trick would be to measure the deflection and correlate to a 5.5 oz ball going a certain distance.
Gotcha, a pocket sized 'ping-ometer' as it were. Much better than my big contraption. I don't think that the size or weight of the 'ball' really matters, as each bat will be tested with the same device, and the results will be comparable. But yes, a spring loaded device, that measures the rebound, would probably be effective.
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I've never seen a Modulus, I might have to go to see Steve at Hunts and ask if he has one. Probably somewhat superior to my efforts with a Bosch hammer drill tbh! It's too damn cold to hang out in the garage right now, so this project will have to wait for a few months yet.
Tell us more about the ping machine.
Best photo of a Modulus I could find, basically channels cut in the back of the bat and then filled with a honeycomb insert to keep the stiffness of the blade while losing weight. Worked well iirc but obviously the ICC ban hammer came down.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg306/kenbriooo2007/bat6.jpg)
Regards ping testing - all you need is a machine or arm that will swing the bat at a set speed and a method of measuring the resulting ball speed; high speed camera plus a graduated background or similar. It's then reasonably simple maths to convert that speed result into a value of coefficient of restitution for the bat (i.e. ping). Plenty of research labs have this setup in some form or other for sports testing, in baseball there's even a testing standard for non-wooden bats.
Problems with cricket - wood's a natural product so even if one example of a bat model produces a certain result, another may not. How much do you knock it in pre-test, etc etc. Balls are also not very heavily regulated so you'd get very different results due to variations in balls. In a potential future where we ditch willow and bats are made from composites COR would be very useful indeed but probably isn't now. Also, the middle position on cricket bats varies - to have a standardised test you'd need a set impact point, which would potentially discriminate against bats that had different middles. To be honest, the effect of middle position on cor would be far more interesting than just looking at ping!
On a more mundane note, a ruler and a camera would do the job - drop a ball on a bat from a set height and measure how high it bounces.
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The original/prototype Modulous lives next door to me with the man who co designed it alongside Hunts.
Also the original Modulous had honeycomb in the blade also then covered with a laminate.
I did post some pictures somewhere on here.
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Gotcha, a pocket sized 'ping-ometer' as it were. Much better than my big contraption. I don't think that the size or weight of the 'ball' really matters, as each bat will be tested with the same device, and the results will be comparable. But yes, a spring loaded device, that measures the rebound, would probably be effective.
Attach this to a small LCD display with a chip inside that calculates the JKL-B unit (:D) would be great!
PS (Edit): Thanks to @JK Lewis for reminding that this is my 3000 th. post! :) So, I have to mark it. #3000_th_post
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Attach this to a small LCD display with a chip inside that calculates the JKL-B unit (:D) would be great!
Nice idea! Very proud to be part of your 3,000th comment old boy.
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Best photo of a Modulus I could find, basically channels cut in the back of the bat and then filled with a honeycomb insert to keep the stiffness of the blade while losing weight. Worked well iirc but obviously the ICC ban hammer came down.
([url]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg306/kenbriooo2007/bat6.jpg[/url])
Regards ping testing - all you need is a machine or arm that will swing the bat at a set speed and a method of measuring the resulting ball speed; high speed camera plus a graduated background or similar. It's then reasonably simple maths to convert that speed result into a value of coefficient of restitution for the bat (i.e. ping). Plenty of research labs have this setup in some form or other for sports testing, in baseball there's even a testing standard for non-wooden bats.
Problems with cricket - wood's a natural product so even if one example of a bat model produces a certain result, another may not. How much do you knock it in pre-test, etc etc. Balls are also not very heavily regulated so you'd get very different results due to variations in balls. In a potential future where we ditch willow and bats are made from composites COR would be very useful indeed but probably isn't now. Also, the middle position on cricket bats varies - to have a standardised test you'd need a set impact point, which would potentially discriminate against bats that had different middles. To be honest, the effect of middle position on cor would be far more interesting than just looking at ping!
On a more mundane note, a ruler and a camera would do the job - drop a ball on a bat from a set height and measure how high it bounces.
Very interesting thoughts, thanks. I agree that standardising would be very important. Honestly, I doubt that a ball being dropped onto a flat bat bounces very much, and it would be a pretty boring test. I like the spring loaded idea better, to measure the rebound.
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Depends how high you drop it from ha! In either case, the trouble with just testing the surface properties of the bat is that it's a big simplification of a fairly complicated dynamic problem. Finding the right bat for you is considerably more important than how it pings, I'd argue, and that really is hard to test for.
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^ I think you are overcomplicating a solution to a not so simple problem.
What other factors, other than JKL-Balls units, do we need to help the bat selection process easier for the consumer?
- Mid-point/Balance-point?
- Swing weight?
- Dead weight?
- Node of percussion?
What else? What can we do to standardize these factors so that bat selection becomes a science not an art?
Did you every buy a car by test driving it and sticking your head out of the window to "feel" how wind feels against your face like your old Yugo? :D
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^ I think you are overcomplicating a solution to a not so simple problem.
What other factors, other than JKL-Balls units, do we need to help the bat selection process easier for the consumer?
- Mid-point/Balance-point?
- Swing weight?
- Dead weight?
- Node of percussion?
What else? What can we do to standardize these factors so that bat selection becomes a science not an art?
Did you every buy a car by test driving it and sticking your head out of the window to "feel" how wind feels against your face like your old Yugo? :D
What happens to all the bats that don’t sell
What happens after knocking in and after storage (heat issue)
I understand what your saying but realistically people well most do not care and in truth pick up a bag and go
It like any industry standard in bats will never happen.”would you take a punt on a bat that’s not currently a goer”
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^ I think you are overcomplicating a solution to a not so simple problem.
What other factors, other than JKL-Balls units, do we need to help the bat selection process easier for the consumer?
- Mid-point/Balance-point?
- Swing weight?
- Dead weight?
- Node of percussion?
What else? What can we do to standardize these factors so that bat selection becomes a science not an art?
Did you every buy a car by test driving it and sticking your head out of the window to "feel" how wind feels against your face like your old Yugo? :D
What happens to all the bats that don’t sell
What happens to bats that don't sell now? What's the connection to the factors I outlined above?
What happens after knocking in and after storage (heat issue)
Does a bat's swing weight change after knocking and "in/after storage"? How are the factors outlined above change due to knocking or storage?
I understand what your saying but realistically people well most do not care and in truth pick up a bag and go
This is my point as well, we are in such a state because people don't care. It is a dying sport. How do we make people care about their gear and its quality?
It like any industry standard in bats will never happen.”would you take a punt on a bat that’s not currently a goer”
There are lot of commercial items that have standards that people don't even think about anymore. Anti-lock brakes. Car's horse power. 1080P Resolution. Retina display. I can go on and on. To me, it seems cricket bat industry is happy to provide a sub-standard service and consumers (lazy) are happy to eat it up. What excites today's cricket bat consumers? Stickers and endorsements!
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There are lot of commercial items that have standards that people don't even think about anymore. Anti-lock brakes. Car's horse power. 1080P Resolution. Retina display. I can go on and on. To me, it seems cricket bat industry is happy to provide a sub-standard service and consumers (lazy) are happy to eat it up. What excites today's cricket bat consumers? Stickers and endorsements!
I should have learnt not to engage by now but... literally none of those is a standard? I mean, retina display is a brand name for goodness' sake.
The cricket bat industry provides what the consumers want, which it can hardly be blamed for.
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I should have learnt not to engage by now but... literally none of those is a standard? I mean, retina display is a brand name for goodness' sake.
Not yet but will be.
1080P is a standard.
The cricket bat industry provides what the consumers want, which it can hardly be blamed for.
And that is a big mistake. Industry should be forward thinking. The reason they don’t innovate is because they can sell old style crap marketed to romantics (primarily in England and Australia) yearning for glorious old days of WG Grace and his toothpick sized bats.
When Henry Ford asked farmers what they wanted, they told him they wanted a faster horse. He built model-T.
Don’t defend the current industry. Think big for a change. Sheesh.
I sometimes wonder if the reason that there hasn’t been any innovation in the cricket bats is because the rules are made by England and Australia, two of the most traditionalist (romantic ie backward thinking ) markets when it comes to cricket gear.
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The earth is flat and the government has bugged all of our phones.
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What happens to all the bats that don’t sell
What happens to bats that don't sell now? What's the connection to the factors I outlined above? Does a bat's swing weight change after knocking and "in/after storage"? How are the factors outlined above change due to knocking or storage?
This is my point as well, we are in such a state because people don't care. It is a dying sport. How do we make people care about their gear and its quality?There are lot of commercial items that have standards that people don't even think about anymore. Anti-lock brakes. Car's horse power. 1080P Resolution. Retina display. I can go on and on. To me, it seems cricket bat industry is happy to provide a sub-standard service and consumers (lazy) are happy to eat it up. What excites today's cricket bat consumers? Stickers and endorsements!
Of course a bats swing and pick up will change through time you may not notice but it does no bat will stay the same over time.
It is a bit like handpicked by a shop which I will grant may give you a fussy feeling but in truth is not great because everybody is different and will look for different things because like bats we are all different. One mans crap is another gold.
Cars are standard by there mechanical nature -bats are not.
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Could someone have started a new thread for this instead of ruining mines! :(
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The earth is flat and the government has bugged all of our phones.
You are critical because that's your bread and butter. You sell bats by talking about subjective factors in your videos. Makes sense.
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Of course a bats swing and pick up will change through time you may not notice but it does no bat will stay the same over time.
Change by how much? We won't know until we start measuring and make that process and its results standards.
It is a bit like handpicked by a shop which I will grant may give you a fussy feeling but in truth is not great because everybody is different and will look for different things because like bats we are all different. One mans crap is another gold.
That is EXACTLY why standardization will help! Get 5 or 6 factors standardized and remove this subjective, fussy feeling nonsense. On top of that, it will easy to replicate "the feel" with custom bat makers when there are standards for bats.
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Change by how much? We won't know until we start measuring and make that process and its results standards.
That is EXACTLY why standardization will help! Get 5 or 6 factors standardized and remove this subjective, fussy feeling nonsense. On top of that, it will easy to replicate "the feel" with custom bat makers when there are standards for bats.
Sorry but no simply no.
Have you ever been in a workshop??
Willow is too varible. Ask the batamkers themself they if there honest will tell you. Most people pay for stickers and straight lines.
You can not standardize williow.
even machine made bats have varients no matter how much you think.
Most of the things you want to standardise are peronal opinion.
Mate i too at times when i was younger would love standardization.
To put your point in to question anybody go to a cricket shop and pick a bat up. Remember the first bat you picked up then go around the shop take over 5 minutes then come back to that bat. I almost guarentee you it will feel different. Your idea of a number here may work but people even have difference of thoughts on pick up(what picks up well for player a may be different to player b). Then add gloves or no gloves as you know bats feel different with gloves on.
Inital Ping test then retest after a year i guarentee you this there will be no pattern of results.
In my theory is 90 per cent of all bats are equal and there no difference in rebound quality after a period of use.
The difference is the person holdding the bat ability feel and pick up and shape which is all personal.
We love a good yarn but in truth a bats a bat all mostly end up the same to most users.
Us on here though love to talk about mythical things, grains wide narrow who pressed and the mythical Pro bats.
I will admit when i did a little bit for a company i did do the marketing nine yards but in truth over the 10 years on here and 100 of bats most have been the same no matter what the grade-i just liked the pick up and shape at the time.
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I would like handle tech to be looked and and do like a good drilled bat.
I like the idea of the cut of Dhoni style toes to save weight too.
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Willow is too varible. Ask the batamkers themself they if there honest will tell you. Most people pay for stickers and straight lines.
I am talking about finished bats. Put a stickers that labels 5 factors I mentioned earlier. Swing weight, dead weight, balance point, node of percussion, and JKL-Balls unit. How are these going to change after a bat is finished? Anybody who wants a copy made of their bat could use this information to have a custom bat maker recreate the old bat.
You can not standardize williow.
You can standardize a finished bat.
even machine made bats have varients no matter how much you think.
We are measuring certain factors after a bat is made and putting it on a label.
To put your point in to question anybody go to a cricket shop and pick a bat up. Remember the first bat you picked up then go around the shop take over 5 minutes then come back to that bat. I almost guarentee you it will feel different. Your idea of a number here may work but people even have difference of thoughts on pick up(what picks up well for player a may be different to player b). Then add gloves or no gloves as you know bats feel different with gloves on.
So what? With our without gloves, consumers will associate a certain based on the factors labelled.
Inital Ping test then retest after a year i guarentee you this there will be no pattern of results.
Don't understand what you mean? Ping will only get better, I say. :)
In my theory is 90 per cent of all bats are equal and there no difference in rebound quality after a period of use.
You have to explain this as it makes no sense to me.
The difference is the person holdding the bat ability feel and pick up and shape which is all personal.
This is getting old. I am paying good money and I want a certain type of bat because it works for my body. 5 years later, I also want a bat close to what I had before, maybe something slightly different based on what I HAD in the past. I don't want to go by "feel". That'd be silly.
We love a good yarn but in truth a bats a bat all mostly end up the same to most users.
I will admit when i did a little bit for a company i did do the marketing nine yards but in truth over the 10 years on here and 100 of bats most have been the same no matter what the grade-i just liked the pick up and shape at the time.
Unpack this please. THey are not all the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01bhRXF6bxw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01bhRXF6bxw)
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You know what good luck.
I can see you just want to go on and on.
The best bit your wrote is You can standardise the finished bat mate.
I guess we must accept our "poo" stands till you get it sorted then.
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^ How can you say it won't work unless people try it.
Currently what we have is crap - it does not work!