Custom Bats Cricket Forum
General Cricket => Your Cricket => Topic started by: cobweb1510 on April 18, 2021, 12:57:38 PM
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Hi all,
First a disclaimer- I've watched very little village cricket, and have only recently got involved at all as my son has moved up in the youth set up. This means it is a genuine question, and I am happy to have my thoughts/views corrected due to my own ignorance!
So yesterday was our local village team's 1st XI opening match of the season. The weather was lovely, and I managed to persuade my 2 sons to come down to the ground by promising them a crepe- they promptly met a load of friends and disappeared for a few hours. Happy days, I sat and watched the cricket, had a beer, and called it being a parent.
The visitors batted first, and scored 201 in their overs, with their pro scoring 123. Our team had an issue with their pro, so was stuck in America awaiting a work permit (details may be wrong here, but basically we had no pro). Our reply was about 110 from memory. This strikes me as being somewhat silly- a single player has unbalanced the whole game. Without their Pro, our local team would have won as their "locals" scored 80 between them. So we bring in our pro- some local cricketer misses out on a game-and then it becomes the battle of whose pro is best- with 20 local players making up the numbers.
Then there is the issue of paying the pro. I don't know how much they get paid, but there doesn't seem to be a good number. If they are on a good salary, that seems like a lot of money for a village cricket club to have leaving it's coffers every year. If it's not a lot of money, what's the point in these guys flying over here to play in an amateur league?
It seems to me (from a VERY limited amount of knowledge) that simply not having pro players would be advantageous to everyone. Less money leaving the club and games being played by competitive squads developed locally. I can understand once one team has one, they all need one- but from what I saw yesterday none would be better for everyone.
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I think you have it right. Others will say overseas pros contribute to the club through coaching etc. That may be true for some but being so reliant on one player is not good for any team/club.
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Pro gets you promoted, higher standard of cricket attracts better players, club improves and grows. Or so the thinking goes.
Personally I don't have a problem with it, it raises the standard of club cricket and players do improve by being around better players. That said, too many clubs spend beyond their means on a pro which I think is ridiculous and endangers the future of your club.
Ideal scenario, a pro should be a good addition to a thriving, well organised club. Not just a hired gun who comes in and wins you a few games for one season then disappears off without having had a real impact.
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I think it’s a waste of time, other than for the coaching aspect. Have seen some very poor quality “pro” players over the years years, apart from one Justin Langer when he was about 18, who was fairly decent bat.
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It's gone beyond having 'a pro', though. I've heard some clubs teams have more than half their players being
paid. A lot of paid players are nowhere near good enough to be deserving.
It's about teams seeking to win by any means necessary, and individuals being selfish and greedy.
I hope some of you are actually with me on this!
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I know a lad who had head turned by £60 a game and now makes a round trip of 120 miles to play cricket on a Saturday!
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It's gone beyond having 'a pro', though. I've heard some clubs teams have more than half their players being
paid. A lot of paid players are nowhere near good enough to be deserving.
It's about teams seeking to win by any means necessary, and individuals being selfish and greedy.
I hope some of you are actually with me on this!
Feels like this is a very different issue to paying for an overseas player to come across for a summer. Agree though that paying multiple players isn't a good model and long term won't benefit anyone, including the club doing the paying.
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Pro gets you promoted, higher standard of cricket attracts better players, club improves and grows. Or so the thinking goes.
Personally I don't have a problem with it, it raises the standard of club cricket and players do improve by being around better players. That said, too many clubs spend beyond their means on a pro which I think is ridiculous and endangers the future of your club.
Ideal scenario, a pro should be a good addition to a thriving, well organised club. Not just a hired gun who comes in and wins you a few games for one season then disappears off without having had a real impact.
I think your first idea, that the pro gets you promoted is a fallacy (unless you get the best/only pro)- since everyone has a pro. (I appreciate you said this was the thinking, not necessarily your personal opinion)
Thinking about things further, and reading the replies, wouldn't the money be better spent on either training local club coaches better, or perhaps paying a "pro" coach- you get all the benefits of training from the pro but don't distort the games. I wonder what the effect of Brexit will be on this- apparently football clubs have very strict criteria to sign overseas players now.
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Better idea is to have pro coach player, have seen this combination work successfully.
There are leagues where teams can't survive without a pro! Let alone a promotion!
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Feels like this is a very different issue to paying for an overseas player to come across for a summer. Agree though that paying multiple players isn't a good model and long term won't benefit anyone, including the club doing the paying.
Yes, I guess it is. The original post was about a single player making things unfair/unbalanced. Sorry.
I'm against both models, as you'd expect. I think pros should only play in the highest echelons of club cricket.
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With you on that. I don't see how one player being utterly dominant at a level completely below their ability helps anyone.
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The highly romanticised Lancashire League of yesteryear often manifested itself (and was celebrated) as a battle of the overseas pros (plus ten locals). So not exactly a new 'problem'?
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Used to see this many years ago now when I lived I kent and played league cricket on a Saturday and then turned out most weekends for the club I started at that played friendly Sunday cricket and we used to play against sides that at the time were in the kent prem on a Sat and I can honestly some were great and others just awful.
By great I mean the pro would bat 11 and that was it and would be a help to the younger players occasionally on bit sides and try and help and oversaw a friendly Sunday game. Others would open the batting and score 100 quickly and retire or just bat through for 150, 200 even a few 250+ from memory and then also bowl a full allocation.
Don’t remember people being to bothered at you just knew which teams would do what
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Paid overseas/retired pro's is fairly common at our mid level league cricket and more common as you go up the leagues where you find a lot of Middlesex players after the 2 year qualification (last played FC cricket), the rules on second team County cricketers is a bit less defined, so they play as well at the higher level.
So far my old club has resisted any form of payment to anyone despite numerous offers and recommendations.
You can't stop clubs doing what they want if they have the funds available, all we have done is ask 2 questions how we should move forward.
1. Is it morally right one player is paid when others pay every game and yearly to represent the club.
2. Would having a paid player artificially raise the level the club can sustain long term, and would that harm younger players development.
Yes you can be at too high a level in the ameteur game, and that can have a negative effect.
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Clubs can have pros, not much to say.
When I played on a Sunday the pro either bats with the tail or not and plays for being out there to coach.
Certainly not to bat top 3 and bowl.
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Personally I think clubs rely too much on paying players or pros and it artificially raises their club. Sadly, as with football at amateur level it’s endemic and on the rise .
Sure, In the very top league (aka the premier premier league) do it but below that.. zero benefit other than taking resources away from the club.
Sunday wise, as buzz says.. a pro should do no batting or bowling and be there to make up the numbers.. sadly, I rarely see that as they usually smash a load of runs or skittle a side when required
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Personally I think clubs rely too much on paying players or pros and it artificially raises their club. Sadly, as with football at amateur level it’s endemic and on the rise .
Sure, In the very top league (aka the premier premier league) do it but below that.. zero benefit other than taking resources away from the club.
Sunday wise, as buzz says.. a pro should do no batting or bowling and be there to make up the numbers.. sadly, I rarely see that as they usually smash a load of runs or skittle a side when required
Up North Pro are standard in senior leagues and are designated and in some cases bring lots of money into the club because more people watch club cricket in some leagues than turn up to county games.
Now I have only played in the WEPL and SEPL down south and cricket was not a spectator sport it is in some Northern Leagues big time.
All year round international cricket has changed the standard but most Pro bring something to the table and clubs in some leagues have to have one or they employ a good English player.
Funny down south I found instead of pro you had designated county players who come and play when not involved.
The Northern Leagues I have played with did have limits to overseas pro in the fact they had to have played so many first class matches over a period of time ..
End of the day I agree you only get a cup... 10-15k is the going rate for a player with first class experience....
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A few know me on here from other paid player threads and that I stick up for it....
I play ecb prem cricket, played this level for a number of years and for a number of clubs the team I am at pay 1-11 in the first team with a Sri Lankan coming over (currently in quarantine) almost every team in our prem league does the same, loads of pros dotted about and a lot of county second 11 players plus minor county lads.
Our league is very strong, played against an overseas on Saturday who has scored 3 first class triple century’s! And the week before got my front pad blown off by a Pakistani international bowler!
Up north in premier leagues it is very common for teams of paid players and pros dotted about as I have said...a team in Huddersfield are rumoured to spend upwards of 50k on players and was rumoured to be paying Alex Lee’s £1k a game the other season!
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If you are ever down in cambridge and want a game Aaron we would find a space for you. We can only pay in sausage rolls and beer though ;)
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If you are ever down in cambridge and want a game Aaron we would find a space for you. We can only pay in sausage rolls and beer though ;)
The best type of payment! Hopefully the sausage rolls are hot and the beer strong 😂 have a good season mate!
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rumoured to be paying Alex Lee’s £1k a game the other season!
When he couldn't get a game for Yorkshire in the supposedly low-quality County Championship!
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Used to see this many years ago now when I lived I kent and played league cricket on a Saturday and then turned out most weekends for the club I started at that played friendly Sunday cricket and we used to play against sides that at the time were in the kent prem on a Sat and I can honestly some were great and others just awful.
By great I mean the pro would bat 11 and that was it and would be a help to the younger players occasionally on bit sides and try and help and oversaw a friendly Sunday game. Others would open the batting and score 100 quickly and retire or just bat through for 150, 200 even a few 250+ from memory and then also bowl a full allocation.
Don’t remember people being to bothered at you just knew which teams would do what
Soulman, you may have or may not have noticed that a club from the isle of sheppey have rocketed up through the leagues in Kent - they will claim that they don't/didn't pay Fabian Cowdrey, Sean Irvine now Dave Masters, his brother, a former Kent staff player, one of the best Premier league all rounders over the last 10 years plus an overseas - but I very much doubt they are choosing to play there because it's a lovely ground....
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Up North Pro are standard in senior leagues and are designated and in some cases bring lots of money into the club because more people watch club cricket in some leagues than turn up to county games.
Now I have only played in the WEPL and SEPL down south and cricket was not a spectator sport it is in some Northern Leagues big time.
All year round international cricket has changed the standard but most Pro bring something to the table and clubs in some leagues have to have one or they employ a good English player.
Funny down south I found instead of pro you had designated county players who come and play when not involved.
The Northern Leagues I have played with did have limits to overseas pro in the fact they had to have played so many first class matches over a period of time ..
End of the day I agree you only get a cup... 10-15k is the going rate for a player with first class experience....
mate, WEPL is dire standard really. I've only played a few teams from Up't North for MCC and the standard is soooooo different. Northant's Prem for example would blow WEPL prem 1 teams out the water
I am 5050 on pro's though. A genuine Pro who is just there to help the club is one thing and a GOOD thing. A Pro who is there to dominate games and win leagues on his own (or save a team from relegation) is for me anyway, the issue. If your club can't survive at the level without paying then the club IS playing above it's level and players are being carried. That isn't helping anyone other than the Paid players
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Like many things if done well and with the right intentions the benefits can be worthwhile. I've experienced first hand the opposite, which led my club to being a laughing stock, throwing money away which could have greatly helped where we needed it, and only inflating our position temporarily. Hindsight is always wonderful, I wish i had the ability to ask this question when i started!
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Soulman, you may have or may not have noticed that a club from the isle of sheppey have rocketed up through the leagues in Kent - they will claim that they don't/didn't pay Fabian Cowdrey, Sean Irvine now Dave Masters, his brother, a former Kent staff player, one of the best Premier league all rounders over the last 10 years plus an overseas - but I very much doubt they are choosing to play there because it's a lovely ground....
Was talking to someone sunday watching our sunday team, their teams now paying many players. Despite having 3 MCCU lads, two lads who have very good county stats and also got Michael Atherton's son playing for them!
Sounds like they aren't spending a lot doesn't it haha :o :o
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Just can't see how that kind of spending can be sustainable without outside funding. And if outside funding is involved, what's the contingency plan when that backing is removed? More than one club up in Scotland has fallen to bits when the 'alleged' money dried up.
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Just can't see how that kind of spending can be sustainable without outside funding. And if outside funding is involved, what's the contingency plan when that backing is removed? More than one club up in Scotland has fallen to bits when the 'alleged' money dried up.
Another Kent club made their first appearance in the Kent Prem in 2008, went on to win 5 Prem titles, got relegated 2017, promoted back first attempt then majority of players left for varying reasons (apparently) and the club asked to be demoted and were put in Div 5. They always claimed not to pay, not sure many believed them. Thankfully the club is still going.
My club has an overseas, always does. Back in the day they were employed as assistant groundsman, played midweek and Sundays - so we got a lot from them and the overseas enjoyed (for the most part) playing lots of cricket, playing with people outside of the 1st team and really got involved in the club.
Unless those being paid are giving something back - i.e. coaching, i just don't see the point in spending £000's on players for club cricket - the club doesn't win money for winning the league.
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Think that's a sensible model. Essentially the overseas is paid to be a first team player who is available every Saturday, to help facilitate Sunday games where kids or less experienced players can get game time, to help with the grounds every week and to coach every week.
Yes, volunteers and paying members do some of those tasks but with a paid overseas it does have the benefit that they are required, not asked, to be there to do these things week in, week out for the full season.
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We had a great experience of an overseas player at our club a few years back;
Ran up a huge bar tab at local pub
Ran up huge phone bill calling Australia overnight whilst staying at Captain's house
Rumored to have become too "friendly" with some female members of the village
Got "injured" after the first game when he bowled badly
Abandoned an old car as he left to go back to Australia
Never tried one since :D
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Sounds worth his weight in stories though 😂
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Another Kent club made their first appearance in the Kent Prem in 2008, went on to win 5 Prem titles, got relegated 2017, promoted back first attempt then majority of players left for varying reasons (apparently) and the club asked to be demoted and were put in Div 5. They always claimed not to pay, not sure many believed them. Thankfully the club is still going.
My club has an overseas, always does. Back in the day they were employed as assistant groundsman, played midweek and Sundays - so we got a lot from them and the overseas enjoyed (for the most part) playing lots of cricket, playing with people outside of the 1st team and really got involved in the club.
Unless those being paid are giving something back - i.e. coaching, i just don't see the point in spending £000's on players for club cricket - the club doesn't win money for winning the league.
Exactly my thoughts, been paid for a number of years and moved clubs due to it, but every club I’m at I take over an age group and do the all stars and before all stars was around the infant cricket.
Will play on sundays when needed and I will go up to the club and use it as a social hub throughout the week. So I feel like I’m giving a decent amount back into the team. I play with people who train Wednesdays and Thursdays. Play Saturday then go off the face of the earth the rest of the week
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Sounds worth his weight in stories though 😂
He was actually very good company!