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General Cricket => World Cricket => England => Topic started by: FattusCattus on October 26, 2023, 10:18:06 PM
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I got to thinking - about recent test cricketers who never really got into their stride / got the chance to shine, and I thought of a couple of examples:-
Toby Roland Jones - Another Fraser / Robinson type. A solid 3rd or 4th seamer who seamed to 'bang it into the right area' and bag a few wickets, could hold a bat too!
James Bracey - never really found out, but i reckon could've done a job with the bat at 6 or 7
Saqib Mahmood - Seems dogged by injury, but could've been a bit of a weapon with his reverse swing
Will Jacks - Well, where does he fit in - a top 5 batter who bowls decent offspin. Must he wait until Root retires?
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Bracey was unfortunate, played out of position against a great team and that was his only chance. Jacks I think will feature for England for years to come when some of the current crop pack it in.
One that springs to mind is Mason Crane. Never a test cricketer but his latter white ball record is solid and he seems to have been jettisoned because of his failed stint in red ball.
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Zafar Ansari. The most peculiar of them all.
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Simon Jones would be the one who stands out for me.
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James Taylor surely in the list having just peaked
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Zafar Ansari. The most peculiar of them all.
Less peculiar when you have a look at the success he's made of his post-cricket career. The article he did about packing in pro cricket is pretty good as well.
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Zafar Ansari. The most peculiar of them all.
I think i would have done exactly what he did.
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This is a good and tough question!
Could we have got a couple of years out of Ian Bell?
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Tymal Mills could have been a much better international player as well
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Tragically Ben Hollioake - think he would have been a superstar
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Simon Jones and Jofra are the 2 big ones i can think of.
Can't help but feel James Taylor was just on the cusp of something remarkable, even if you consider him just as a specialist short leg he had huge value to the team.
Kieswetter. Man of the match in the 2010 T20 World Cup final. The year before he qualified for England he averaged 60 in the county championship and 50 in the one day trophy.
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James Taylor definately. He was next in line for England captain. He was the Lions captain and I think had stood in as England captain in a few ODI's. Fantastic player, such a shame for him.
Dean Headley had is career cut short, just as he'd proved himslef at test level. Plenty of quicks due to breaking down constantly. I think the modern obsession with pumping iron hasn't helped quick bowlers.
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I think Sammit Patel should have had a better England career. Also Rikki Clarke.
Urm also KP and Michael Carberry.
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I think Sammit Patel should have had a better England career. Also Rikki Clarke.
Urm also KP and Michael Carberry.
Carberry could have been selected sooner too. That was frustrating
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Carberry getting axed was pretty brutal, one of the only players to give a good account of himself that tour.
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I’d add Alec Tudor into that mix from memory seemed to by a very talented bowling all rounder before being struck by Brett Lee and don’t think he played again after that at international level
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I played against a good friend of Carberrys a few years ago. He said he certainly felt hard done by after that Ashes tour. He has also been very outspoken about the ECB and the lack of confidence he has regarding dealing with racism in the game. State school educated he made it thru against the normal routes that are private schools.
There would be a few openers around the Strauss Cook era who could of played but that was a very strong opening pair.
As far as players who could of played more games but didn’t you could have Martin Bicknell who was pretty much injury free.
I think bowling wise I would have Steve Finn-not the most talented but had pace and let’s be honest…England handled him exceptionally badly.
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Foakes.
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Carberry was unlucky that his peak years came when England had its most stable opening partnership for a number of generations in Strauss and Cook. He was a late developer having failed at Surrey and Kent, there wasn't an opening when he was playing at his best, then when an opportunity finally arose, he was 34 and past his best. In any other period he could have had a good international career
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Carberry getting axed was pretty brutal, one of the only players to give a good account of himself that tour.
His face never seemed to fit - good, quality batsman, could bat anywhere, gun fielder...
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I think maybe Malan could've had a better run in the test side.
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So, I did an "if only" side at work today. This is what I came up with:
Martyn Moxon
Michael Carberry
David Sales
Jim Love/Roland Butcher
Ben Foakes
Craig White
James Foster
Liam Dawson
Toby Roland-Jones
Dean Headley
Paul Hutchison
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And yes, I did just posit Ben Foakes as a specialist bat.
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I can't find out the answer to the question which English pmayer has scored the most first class runs without playing a test match but I can't imagine that anyone has surpassed James Hildrith's 18,000 first class runs.
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This could be a little bit of a rogue shout because he achieved so much. But I think Liam Plunkett was given the chop from the England side far too early.
He used to have so much control from what I remember, scored some handy runs at the back end and then was all of a sudden not selected, not even in squads.
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And yes, I did just posit Ben Foakes as a specialist bat.
Hildreth and Glenn Chapple should/could be in that team too.
To be fair Craig White played loads and had a decent career under Duncan Fletcher, I don't think he qualifies for this list...
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I remember that Swann felt like he missed out on a few years of playing for England because he upset a coach or selectors. He was quite scathing about who was playing for England ahead of him - maybe Udal? I can't really remember.
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Oh, and Jofra Archer.
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A lot of these players had/ have had lengthy, fulfilled careers that wete not cut short at all. Perhaps the title of the thread should be "Ought to have played for England more"?
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I remember that Swann felt like he missed out on a few years of playing for England because he upset a coach or selectors. He was quite scathing about who was playing for England ahead of him - maybe Udal? I can't really remember.
You’re right except he also said he was right not to be picked before because by his own admission he was a colossal bell end when he first started getting success.
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I remember that Swann felt like he missed out on a few years of playing for England because he upset a coach or selectors. He was quite scathing about who was playing for England ahead of him - maybe Udal? I can't really remember.
Swann made his ODI debut in 2000 in South Africa but had to wait until 2008 to play a test match. His attitude and professionalism in the South Africa tour where by all account appalling.
England gave debuts to a few spinners - Richard Dawson, Gareth Batty, Shaun Udal, Ian Blackwell and Monty Panesar - whist Swann waited to play test cricket. Panesar was the only one of that group with real talent but Swann only had himself to blame.
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Swann made his ODI debut in 2000 in South Africa but had to wait until 2008 to play a test match. His attitude and professionalism in the South Africa tour where by all account appalling.
England gave debuts to a few spinners - Richard Dawson, Gareth Batty, Shaun Udal, Ian Blackwell and Monty Panesar - whist Swann waited to play test cricket. Panesar was the only one of that group with real talent but Swann only had himself to blame.
I think if they could have handled KP, they could have handled Swann. He needed to change but I'm sure he could have changed with the right guidance. England seems to run away from, and not like, difficult or unusual characters (perhaps like Malan) to their loss - management, support, and guidance might not answer everything but it can certainly go a long way. Would an Andrew Symonds have made it in the English game? I doubt it. Got to be nice, right schools, speak right, right class so on and so on.
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I think if they could have handled KP, they could have handled Swann. He needed to change but I'm sure he could have changed with the right guidance. England seems to run away from, and not like, difficult or unusual characters (perhaps like Malan) to their loss - management, support, and guidance might not answer everything but it can certainly go a long way. Would an Andrew Symonds have made it in the English game? I doubt it. Got to be nice, right schools, speak right, right class so on and so on.
The point with KP was that whilst the expectations he set for those around him made him a difficult person to share a dressing room with, there was no questioning the demands he set for himself. His attitude in training and preparation was part of a complete step change in the professionalism of the England set up that Vaughan and Fletcher were looking to instill.
Swann's behaviour on the 2000 tour to South Africa on the otherhand spoke to a lack of desire to make the best of himself as a professional. The lateness, lack of effort in training and particularly his drinking on that tour spoke very poorly of his approach to professional cricket. Swann has said himself that he was a young man with a tour fee in his pocket enjoying himself at that point in his life.
Had he been born a generation before, that sort of thing probably wouldn't have been that much of a problem but playing when he did, his earlier behaviour did restrict his career in its early years
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I think if they could have handled KP, they could have handled Swann. He needed to change but I'm sure he could have changed with the right guidance. England seems to run away from, and not like, difficult or unusual characters (perhaps like Malan) to their loss - management, support, and guidance might not answer everything but it can certainly go a long way. Would an Andrew Symonds have made it in the English game? I doubt it. Got to be nice, right schools, speak right, right class so on and so on.
England handled KP but only up to a point. There’s been some good debate on here actually :) about whether the ECB and the Captain could of handled a high maintenance player differently. I think the upshot was regret and mistakes on both sides.
Symonds I think had an English parent or was actually born here….he chose Australia but to answer your question he probably would not of made it to tests or a long term one day career because he was too much trouble…or depending how you see it would need too much man management in our structure-yes very much old school class system.
Swann…very very good bowler and a pain in the backside.
Not so different to KP in personality. KP was however a great trainer and dedicated to improving himself
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Carberry getting axed was pretty brutal, one of the only players to give a good account of himself that tour.
Controversial take - I thought Carberry looked out of his depth and have never understood why consensus seems to be that he was hard done by to get dropped. Yes he applied himself well but averaging in the twenties and passing 50 once in a five test series is not good.
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Controversial take - I thought Carberry looked out of his depth and have never understood why consensus seems to be that he was hard done by to get dropped. Yes he applied himself well but averaging in the twenties and passing 50 once in a five test series is not good.
Normally I'd agree, but you look at the averages for that series and when you frame it as 'he averaged better than Cook, Root, Bell, Bairstow, Trott and Prior, and a fraction worse than Pietersen", it sounds a bit unfair that he never really got another go.
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Normally I'd agree, but you look at the averages for that series and when you frame it as 'he averaged better than Cook, Root, Bell, Bairstow, Trott and Prior, and a fraction worse than Pietersen", it sounds a bit unfair that he never really got another go.
I get the logic, but I think where all those players had a shocking series (and still mostly played more significant innings than Carberry) he looked to be fighting very hard just to do as well as he did. Add in the fact that he was a lot older and it's hardly surprising the selectors looked elsewhere.
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I get the logic, but I think where all those players had a shocking series (and still mostly played more significant innings than Carberry) he looked to be fighting very hard just to do as well as he did. Add in the fact that he was a lot older and it's hardly surprising the selectors looked elsewhere.
Most of those players had plenty test experience behind them at that point though, Carberry had played one test in his career before that series.
I wouldn't expect many to look comfortable being put into an away Ashes series for their second test ever.
Age factor is a fair point, although when you look at how long Rogers did a job for the Aussies you do wonder, especially given some of the openers England picked post-Carberry.
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To be fair Craig White played loads and had a decent career under Duncan Fletcher, I don't think he qualifies for this list...
My rationale is that he was just starting to experience serious success when his shoulder went, so he played the last last 4 years of his career as a specialist bat in the county game.
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Most of those players had plenty test experience behind them at that point though, Carberry had played one test in his career before that series.
I wouldn't expect many to look comfortable being put into an away Ashes series for their second test ever.
Especially when the Aussies fielded Ryan Harris and the best version of Mitchell Johnson.
Looked at another way, in the years afterward England tried an assortment of Robson, Lyth, Hales, Duckett, Hameed, Jennings and Stoneman over the next four year cycle. With the exception of the duration of Lyth's ton against the Kiwis, I would argue none of those looked any better than Carberry and most rather worse.
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The issue with Carberry in that series was that he battled like hell to get 'in', but having done so was never good enough to go on and make a significant score, and that is a cardinal sin in top level cricket - any high level cricketer will agree that if you get 'in' you have to make it count, and he never did - alas, he wasn't quite good enough.
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Re Swann, had england stuck with him earlier he may never have developed into the bowler he became, so swings and roundabouts.
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The issue with Carberry in that series was that he battled like hell to get 'in', but having done so was never good enough to go on and make a significant score, and that is a cardinal sin in top level cricket - any high level cricketer will agree that if you get 'in' you have to make it count, and he never did - alas, he wasn't quite good enough.
Quite hard to go on when everyone else is panicking and getting out...
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Quite hard to go on when everyone else is panicking and getting out...
Exactly. No one was good enough in that series.
Plus, Carbs batted with arguably a storm damaged bat that snapped, so as members of the forum, we should be on his side! 🤣
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The issue with Carberry in that series was that he battled like hell to get 'in', but having done so was never good enough to go on and make a significant score, and that is a cardinal sin in top level cricket - any high level cricketer will agree that if you get 'in' you have to make it count, and he never did - alas, he wasn't quite good enough.
Did you miss the bit where we all explained he was playing his first major test series in challenging circumstances?
Nobody is arguing that he proved himself as a Test player in that series. The consensus does appear to be that he deserved further chances to establish one way or the other.
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Quite hard to go on when everyone else is panicking and getting out...
In ten innings he was 4th, 1st, 4th, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 4th out - maybe he was contributing to the panic?
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In ten innings he was 4th, 1st, 4th, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st and 4th out - maybe he was contributing to the panic?
I think I'd expect the experienced test cricketers to set the tone for the man with one test cap, not the other way round.
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What might he have been had he had the chance to bed in in a couple of series against the likes of Bangla, Sri Lanka, a weak Windies or an underperforming NZ - who knows, that's the beauty of this thread.
One may feel we never saw the best of Malan, Roland-Jones, Jennings, Crane, Carberry, etc through the vagaries of selection or talent.
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And here's a few chaps to consider -
Anthony McGrath
James Tredwell
Nick Compton
James Taylor* (bit unfair)
Ajmal Shazad
Min Patel
Liam Dawson
Martin Bicknell
Darren Maddy
should any of these played more - or was it a mercy-killing?
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I think I'd expect the experienced test cricketers to set the tone for the man with one test cap, not the other way round.
Brilliant! If you're (apparently) that good, why does it matter what anyone else does? You're either good enough, or you aren't. Cook, Prior, Trott, et al seem to have managed at the start of their career
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I have my doubts that Carberry would have been a top class test opener but I feel he deserved another series to prove it. He was one of the better post cook/strauss openers - considering who he was playing against. 'Older' players get let go too early, after getting picked late, as people are always looking for the next big thing. I dont really disagree here as I would be looking for the next great too, but if there is obviously no-one of that class then there is no reason you cant get 3-5 years out of a fit 32 year old.
I know he is younger but suspect Sam Hain may go the route of this thread. I am sure he will get some tests at some point but unless he hits the runs early he will be 30 and selectors will be looking 'for the future'
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And here's a few chaps to consider -
Anthony McGrath
James Tredwell
Nick Compton
James Taylor* (bit unfair)
Ajmal Shazad
Min Patel
Liam Dawson
Martin Bicknell
Darren Maddy
should any of these played more - or was it a mercy-killing?
I suspect Dawson will get five more tests very soon when we tour India.
Rest of your list...unconvinced. McGrath could have played more ODIs maybe, Bicknell might have got a few games as a horses/courses selection.