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[400notout]

Would be tempted to have this as a poll, but would prefer backed up answers!

Which is more successful and a greater art across all levels of cricket.

The Variations - Wrong'Un, Doosra, Teesra bowled by Warne, Murali, Kaneria, Ajmal style bowlers.

or

The (lack of a good word) Drift, Arm Ball, Dip, Flight, Pace, Guile used by bowlers such as Panesar, Vettori, Herath, Harris.

[Tumo]

Would be tempted to have this as a poll, but would prefer backed up answers!

Which is more successful and a greater art across all levels of cricket.

The Variations - Wrong'Un, Doosra, Teesra bowled by Warne, Murali, Kaneria, Ajmal style bowlers.

or

The (lack of a good word) Drift, Arm Ball, Dip, Flight, Pace, Guile used by bowlers such as Panesar, Vettori, Herath, Harris.

Firstly I'd group Herath in part of the variations group, he has a carrom ball so he's not really a basic dip/drift/flight sort of bowler. Secondly, I think it depends where you are and what sort of level of control you have over each. I'd prefer Swann (in the 2nd group) over Ashwin (in the first), because of his control. Personally I feel you need 2 spinners, 1 of each skill group (i.e a Leg-spinner and a classical off-spinner, or an Ajmal-esque off-spinner and a Panesar-esque SLA). Unless you are Warne or Murali, I think it is difficult for 1 bowler to cover both areas (and therefore be able to bowl in all conditions in all continents).

[uknsaunders]

Across all levels it would be lack of variation bowlers. Simply because the batsman at a lower level get out to straight bowls. Plonk 6 balls on the spot and you'll get somebody out. This works at a low level, but go up a few levels and flight/pace/arm balls and a little tweak are needed. It's only when you get to FC or higher that all these mystery balls are needed. To be honest Tredwell does a decent job without them.

If you go down the mystery route then control is needed. Warne and Murali were great because they didn't bowl 4 balls very often. Plenty of club cricketers bowling filthy leg breaks all over the shop.

[PedalsMcgrew]

I think the traditional methods of beating a batsman ie traditional turn, drift, arm ball etc if perfected will get you all the way to the top in the game, having the variations is the icing on the cake and might just push you from being a Graeme Swann to becoming a Shane Warne but not having them shouldn't hinder you too much. Guys like Murali and Warne only come along every so often and in the meantime the more traditional spinners keep taking wickets and bowling sides out.

Look at Panesar in India, he probably has the least variations of any international spinner and yet he tied the indian batsmen in knots due to excellent line and length and big drift and spin. Monty has hardly got an arm ball for god's sake!

[dmacwana]

I believe in the longer run classical spin bowlers with Drift, Arm Ball, Dip, Flight, Pace, Guile are more successful at most of the levels. Consider the recent India v England series, who was the most successful spinner , Giles and Panesar (both classic spin bowlers) where as Ashwin with all his variations has least affect in he test matches. Even during the one day matches I think Jadeja and Tredwell , both again classical style bowlers, have been more effective than Ashwin.
Most of the bowlers who bowl doosra teesra and all have to bend their arms , which I don't agree with. I would place Warne in the second group as he is a classic leg spin bowler with 5 variations :
 Leg-spinner
Top-spinner
Googly
Slider
Flipper

[GoldenArm]

Would be tempted to have this as a poll, but would prefer backed up answers!

Which is more successful and a greater art across all levels of cricket.

The Variations - Wrong'Un, Doosra, Teesra bowled by Warne, Murali, Kaneria, Ajmal style bowlers.

or


The (lack of a good word) Drift, Arm Ball, Dip, Flight, Pace, Guile used by bowlers such as Panesar, Vettori, Herath, Harris.

Are we separating orthodox and the unorthodox here? Warne should most definitely not fall solely into a variations group although it is fair to say he mastered the flipper and the slider as well as any leg break bowler in history, he did not bowl the bosie often or at all well and his variations were used sparingly. In fact he is the absolute zenith of orthodoxy, his greatest attributes were drift, pace, turn and his ability to out-think a batsman. he just happened to do them so much better than anyone else it appeared freakish. Michael Atherton wrote a very good article about Warnie here:

http://www.mikeatherton.co.uk/2007/the-mighty-craftsman/

what I would take from this is that often its more about the bloke holding the ball than it is necessarily about what the ball itself is doing. that's the difference between those that become legends and those that never make it regardless of talent. I've heard of a bloke called Craig Howard who was supposedly even more talented than Warne but never made it.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/583036.html

[400notout]

Exactly the kind of debate I wanted to open up, cheers for the replies!

Cant believe I missed Swann off the list there....

I only keep Warne out of both groups as the bottom group tend to not bowl huge variations in the criket I have seen and are more successful using other methods.

I'm with the Traditional - Flight and Guile all the way up to test level, but surprise and variations at club level, because even a rank spinner can pull off a beauty!

Have read a couple of articles on Craig Howard, also there was a very good and down to earth article on Bryce McGain on cricinfo recently.

I wasn't aware Herath had a carrom ball? Is there any footage of it? On youtube for example, wouldnt mind a look out of curiosity.

[dmacwana]

I wasn't aware Herath had a carrom ball? Is there any footage of it? On youtube for example, wouldnt mind a look out of curiosity.

Couldn't find a video but here's a pic. Not the best but hopefully you'll be able to see his grip.

[LDifa]

I am two thirds of the way through Twirlymen, it's a brilliant read, especially for a spin fanatic, I'm now practising both off and leg spin.

I think the best tools are a solid stock delivery, with drift, dip and turn.

With plenty of oohs and aaahs:)

[GoldenArm]

I am two thirds of the way through Twirlymen, it's a brilliant read, especially for a spin fanatic, I'm now practising both off and leg spin.

I think the best tools are a solid stock delivery, with drift, dip and turn.

With plenty of oohs and aaahs:)

Pick one or the other mate! no point in trying to bowl both, just be warned the road to leg spin consistency is a long and hard one, you've got to really love it. I was about to say Amol Rajan mentions Herath's carrom ball quite a bit in Twirlymen, as well as a lot of other good stuff. If anyone else is interested in the history of leg spin and the physics/methods of spin I can recommend quite a lot of good books (eg. the art of wrist spin bowling by Peter Philpott, the bowlers art by Brian Wilkins or The Slow Men by David Frith and that really is the tip of the iceberg) and if you want to discuss spin specifically an online acquaintance of mine known as someblokecalleddave started a forum born out of the big cricket forum:

http://spin-bowling.boards.net/index.cgi

He actually managed to get Stuart MacGill to join us on there, though he is yet to post much, its still in its early stages, but MacGilla has a youtube account and converses freely with those that contact him on there and has even offered his assistance in a coaching capacity to those that send him videos of their actions and want a bit of feedback. He's a fantastic bloke!

[LDifa]

Thanks Golden Arm, I am sticking with off spin, but it's nice to be able to do the other, I was getting nothing from the matting during Sundays first winter net, so tried a legger and it turned quite a bit and hit the stumps.

Will definitely have a read of those books as well.

Thanks

[Tumo]

Pick one or the other mate! no point in trying to bowl both, just be warned the road to leg spin consistency is a long and hard one, you've got to really love it. I was about to say Amol Rajan mentions Herath's carrom ball quite a bit in Twirlymen, as well as a lot of other good stuff. If anyone else is interested in the history of leg spin and the physics/methods of spin I can recommend quite a lot of good books (eg. the art of wrist spin bowling by Peter Philpott, the bowlers art by Brian Wilkins or The Slow Men by David Frith and that really is the tip of the iceberg) and if you want to discuss spin specifically an online acquaintance of mine known as someblokecalleddave started a forum born out of the big cricket forum:

http://spin-bowling.boards.net/index.cgi

He actually managed to get Stuart MacGill to join us on there, though he is yet to post much, its still in its early stages, but MacGilla has a youtube account and converses freely with those that contact him on there and has even offered his assistance in a coaching capacity to those that send him videos of their actions and want a bit of feedback. He's a fantastic bloke!

I knew I recognised the username from somewhere, you were on BigCricket as well I believe GA? Haven't been on Dave's forum too much recently but there is a man who is passionate about spin bowling!

[GoldenArm]

I knew I recognised the username from somewhere, you were on BigCricket as well I believe GA? Haven't been on Dave's forum too much recently but there is a man who is passionate about spin bowling!

Ah of course I'm putting two and two together now! Pleasure to meet you once again Sir, yeah Dave is a legend, I thought I knew a fair bit about leggers (hadn't met anyone who even vaguely knew anything about Grum or Tiger) but after meeting him and Macca I had to hit the books! its a bit quiet on the spin boards which is a shame because it has huge potential, the idea of spin bowlers getting their heads together collectively and sharing experience, tips, technique, history, whatever just seems to me a great idea, and a natural, modern progression of the traditional familial nature of spinners passing on advice and deliveries etc...We've seen how useful it can be on bigcricket, and not to downplay any other area of the game but spin is so rich and diverse and difficult, we need all the help we can get! If only it could get the same sort of following there is on here I just know it would take off...

[Gelds]

Great topic this!!
I believe, like most, that drift, pace, guile etc is more effective than the bowlers who bowl maybe 4/5 deliveries but with minimal control.

[pablomarmite]

Great to see a few spin topics recently. I did a review of twirlymen on the forum a while a go and no-one replied. I played about with a carrom a few years before it came to prominence. Bowl it well at 18 yards but difficult to be accurate beyond that, it's just a bit floaty. Variations are great but you need to bowl it was well as your stock ball. At lower levels you don't need the same level of disguise so variations in pace, grip etc won't be picked as well. The higher you go the more tricks you need coupled with the accuracy. If you aspire to be a spinner at the highest level learn to rip it young and get the accuracy later. If not you are just a slow/medium pace bowler or to be ruder pie chucker!