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[Manormanic]

Especially against Australia, who have to ability to play mainly left-handed batsmen and we all know Monty sometimes struggle against left-handers. That's why I think Borthwick should get a serious shout, being an English leg spinner who's fairly good is very rare.

'cept he isn't really all that good - he's a decent bat, great fielder, but his spin is a work in progress still.  Its well known that I rate Adil Rashid in this regard, but I wouldn't call him up right now without some first class form, and its probably a year soon for Azeem Rafiq and Simon Kerrigan...so if Swann is out, I suspect it'll be Tredwell.  Now Tredders is a bit of a plodder, but he's miles better than Lyon...

[The 22nd Yard]

'cept he isn't really all that good - he's a decent bat, great fielder, but his spin is a work in progress still.  Its well known that I rate Adil Rashid in this regard, but I wouldn't call him up right now without some first class form, and its probably a year soon for Azeem Rafiq and Simon Kerrigan...so if Swann is out, I suspect it'll be Tredwell.  Now Tredders is a bit of a plodder, but he's miles better than Lyon...

He's still a fair bowler I think, leg-spin does take time.

If Tredwell can maintain his form he currently has in One-Dayers he will be miles ahead of Lyon. It's strange with Aussie spinners, because I'd have thought the generation Warne had inspired would be coming through about now...

[procricket]

'cept he isn't really all that good - he's a decent bat, great fielder, but his spin is a work in progress still.  Its well known that I rate Adil Rashid in this regard, but I wouldn't call him up right now without some first class form, and its probably a year soon for Azeem Rafiq and Simon Kerrigan...so if Swann is out, I suspect it'll be Tredwell.  Now Tredders is a bit of a plodder, but he's miles better than Lyon...

Borthwick has more control and takes wickets the cent he isn't very good he the best leg spinner in the country if you ask me..

Rashid is very average with the ball yes he can bat but he not a great or even a half decent leg spinner.

Take your Yorkshire tinted glasses off he took 16 wickets last season all season.

[joeljonno]

To say he's not half-decent is a bit harsh, but he's definitely gone backwards since being in the England setup. Rafiq is a much better prospect as a player and a captain.

[The 22nd Yard]

To say he's not half-decent is a bit harsh, but he's definitely gone backwards since being in the England setup. Rafiq is a much better prospect as a player and a captain.

Just hope Rafiq doesn't progress as Rashid did... or didn't

[joeljonno]

Just hope Rafiq doesn't progress as Rashid did... or didn't

Rafiq is T20 captain I think, so he's already surpassed him in that regard.

[The 22nd Yard]

Rafiq is T20 captain I think, so he's already surpassed him in that regard.

True, but just because they trust him with the captaincy doesn't necessarily mean his potential will be fulfilled. I hope for England's sake it is!

[Manormanic]

Borthwick has more control and takes wickets the cent he isn't very good he the best leg spinner in the country if you ask me..

Rashid is very average with the ball yes he can bat but he not a great or even a half decent leg spinner.

Take your Yorkshire tinted glasses off he took 16 wickets last season all season.

Shame that the facts don't back up your pithy attempted put downs....if you'd bothered to check, you might have noted that Borthwick only took 15!!!!!

Borthwick's career record shows 76 wickets at 30 but the fact that he has taken them over 42 games with only a solitary five wicket haul; compare that to Rashid's 296 wickets in 99 (eight of which were as a specialist batsman due to a shoulder injury) and 16 five wicket hauls, along with the fact that he has been the highest wicket taking spinner in the country twice in the past few years (indeed, he has taken more wickets in a single season that Borthwick has in his entire career).  You believe Borthwick to have more control, yet Rashid is consistently more economical throughout his career - indeed, he was also used as an opening bowler during the Big Bash, which is hardly a sign of a kid who can't land 'em.    On top of that, Rashid averages almost 8 higher with the bat and is one of the best fielders in the country. 

Yes, he had a bad year last year - though better than Borthwick - but the evidence so far suggests that it would be a criminal waste of talent to sideline him on that basis.

[procricket]

Shame that the facts don't back up your pithy attempted put downs....if you'd bothered to check, you might have noted that Borthwick only took 15!!!!!

Borthwick's career record shows 76 wickets at 30 but the fact that he has taken them over 42 games with only a solitary five wicket haul; compare that to Rashid's 296 wickets in 99 (eight of which were as a specialist batsman due to a shoulder injury) and 16 five wicket hauls, along with the fact that he has been the highest wicket taking spinner in the country twice in the past few years (indeed, he has taken more wickets in a single season that Borthwick has in his entire career).  You believe Borthwick to have more control, yet Rashid is consistently more economical throughout his career - indeed, he was also used as an opening bowler during the Big Bash, which is hardly a sign of a kid who can't land 'em.    On top of that, Rashid averages almost 8 higher with the bat and is one of the best fielders in the country. 

Yes, he had a bad year last year - though better than Borthwick - but the evidence so far suggests that it would be a criminal waste of talent to sideline him on that basis.

Only half the story if your working off facts look at strike rates and averages it tells another story though doesn't it.


Love you only mention the stats in your favour.....

If he played as a batsman 120 runs in 20 innings is hardly a batsman is it look at rashid strike rate look at rashid average.........

2 sides of a coin I suggest people use both in..

For me it all about strike rate and borthwick takes 10 less deliverys to take his wickets in the longer form and not much in it.

Neither would get in any England side infant I doubt rashid will get in your beloved Yorkshire side.

There both average at the minue

[Manormanic]

Only half the story if your working off facts look at strike rates and averages it tells another story though doesn't it.

Not really - strike rate is, in my opinion a far lesser stat in looking at the long term worth of a bowler - after all, there are numerous factors that can distort the picture provided (one of the two bowlers playing eight games a season on the roads of Headingley and Scarborough, for example).  The simple fact is, over a period of time Rashid has played at a higher level, taken more wickets, scored more runs, made more tons and taken more fiverfers. 

[ProCricketer1982]

How about neither is actually 'good enough' to replace an ageing and injured Swann?? Just because you happen to be the 'best of the rest' doesn't make you good enough. I don't watch either week in week out so you guys who support their counties probably see more of them but from what I have seen of both neither look much better than Lyon.

[Manormanic]

How about neither is actually 'good enough' to replace an ageing and injured Swann?? Just because you happen to be the 'best of the rest' doesn't make you good enough. I don't watch either week in week out so you guys who support their counties probably see more of them but from what I have seen of both neither look much better than Lyon.

Dude, there are guys in your third XI better than Lyon! 

[FattusCattus]

I wonder if Rashid woul benefit from a change of county and a change of scene to get the best out of him.

It would be a shame for Yorks, but they seem to have lost faith in him, and many a player has rejuvenated their career at a diferent county.

I'm a big fan of his, and I can't help feeling he'd progress if he could be firstr choice spinner and bat at 7 in a different side.

[Manormanic]

Sadly, you may be correct with that one - his problems stem back to his treatment by England two winters back, when he was basically carted around as a drinks waiter for six months whilst his action was remodelled, and his confidence seemed to be badly affected as a result.  The talent is still there, but he needs a vote of confidence.

As for Yorkshire, I don't think it is that they have lost faith in him per se, as much as that Rafiiq played alongside him on a couple of spinning decks and bowled beautifully.  Given both are excellent fielders and decent with the willow, when there was room for only one spinner Dilly lost out. 

[The 22nd Yard]

I wonder if Rashid woul benefit from a change of county and a change of scene to get the best out of him.

It would be a shame for Yorks, but they seem to have lost faith in him, and many a player has rejuvenated their career at a diferent county.

I'm a big fan of his, and I can't help feeling he'd progress if he could be firstr choice spinner and bat at 7 in a different side.

Couldn't agree with this more.

Would be a huge shame to see all that potential go to waste, who knows, Swann didn't play a test for England until he was 29, 8 years after his first ODI and 10 years after his first-class debut. Rashid still has 4 years until he's 29 and that will have been 11 years after his first-class debut and 8 years since his ODI debut! I see a pattern emerging...