Topic: Butterfly (Read 147686 times)

Number 11 · « **Reply #60 on:** December 16, 2013, 11:58:52 PM »

Quote from: Jaffa on December 16, 2013, 11:11:52 AM

Me a bit thick.

Can someone explain why a harder pressed bat takes longer to open up yet a bat with more grains (and less sap wood which is naturally harder I believe) or a butterfly stain is supposed to go from the off?

Have I misunderstood or am I missing something?

Do not deign to understand the true meaning of the universe, be thankful for the given bounty that is willow and leather.

Okay I admit, I don't really know either.
Maybe a harder pressed bat needs a longer shake down time to relieve the extra stress it's been put under. I think it's a fine line with pressing, from being under pressed to over pressed to being one for the bin. Every cleft is different and it takes a master craft-mans' skill and knowledge to get it as right as possible but even they get it wrong occasionally.
From my experience, a softer press will need more knocking in to bring the ping up to it's best but will go from the off. Heartwood, butterfly, tight grains and knots/blemishes are harder wood and need less knocking in but maybe need more time to loosen up to become springy.

Mtown Don · « **Reply #61 on:** December 17, 2013, 05:57:28 PM »

Quote from: Aldred Cricket Bats on December 05, 2013, 04:58:27 PM

Well they tend to be harder by nature so they take a touch longer to really get going but it's well worth the wait.

Hi Paul,

Firstly, I'm very interested in what you're trying to achieve here with a different mindset of what makes a good bat (your point about being conditioned to hunt pure sapwood rings true) and the looks of the final products. Unbelievable value for money at �125!

Just wondering, do you think that the general properties of this willow that you have identified in this thread (harder, more resilent and lighter) lead to it being suited to a particular style or type of bat?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Aldred Cricket Bats · « **Reply #62 on:** December 18, 2013, 11:23:32 AM »

Mtown good question, I certainly don't profess to know all the science behind willow and everything that goes with it as I know many of the other bat makers seem to be able to talk about. All my knowledge is purely through experience, that experience is gained from years of playing cricket my knowledge of basic construction of which I learnt as my trade before I played cricket for a living and everything that I have learnt from making and learning the art of cricket bat making over the last 10 years of learning about it. I don't scrutinise what I do too much as I know what I am doing works as an old bat maker once told me and a guy I did my apprenticeship under when I left school, if it ain't broke don't fix it. So my view is basically that no specific willow is suited more to one certain style of play, a cleft that is naturally lighter will allow you to have more bulk in the bat for its weight. My personal view is that there has been a lot of hype about big bats, well when I was playing we had the older shaped bat even bats at 2-12/3lb didn't have huge amounts of wood in them compared to what we have today. I don't know if the willow had a higher moisture content but the bats didn't have the scooping out the back of the bat to allow for the bats to have huge edges they were full backs and thin parallel edges. Now players in first class cricket don't hit the ball any further than they did then but there was always a freak who was going to hit the ball out the ground just like there are now and they didn't bring the boundaries in then they kept big playing areas as there was no 20/20 game to try and bring excitement purely for boundaries.
So butterfly willow is just something that was such a popular buy when I was trying to get into cricket in the 90s as it was a fantastic performing blade but didn't cost as much as the top grade 1 bats and as a young man playing more cricket as an amateur than a professional I had to get what I could afford and they lasted pretty well too, but I have to say they weren't the cheapest of bats then that's for sure but a good compromise. Now over the last 15 years or so the trend has gone to pure white faces with nice perfect straight grains, which has got to the point that companies are selling lesser quality willow and having printed grains put on a sheet to cover the face of the bat to make it look perfect and whilst not selling at a premium price will sell at not far off what we charge for our top end bats. All because people are worried about the looks. Now a great quote from an old friend of mine who is no longer with us god bless him was about a bat he had which was a real ugly thing but I went like stink and he said, " I look at my bat like a good night at a night club, never rule out the fat lass as they try harder to please" now once I got back up off the floor from laughing and looked at what he said he was right, it's down to how the bat performs and how you learn how to work with it. As I have said before amateur players look at where the middles placed the shape the pick up its dead weight etc and then after all that think about the performance. As bog standard professional you get a couple of bats sent at the weight or around the weight you want you don't get given a particular choice of shapes you get what they want you to use especially as a young professional and as long as the bats are performing they don't mind and I have seen players score consistent runs in 1st class cricket with just ordinary looking bats by what you tend to look at in the shops, and that was before central contracts came in so against the Ambrose Walsh Donald etc .
My experience from being a professional suggests to me that it doesn't matter what you buy you need to get to know your bat, you need to spend time hitting balls with it with throw downs just pinging a ball up and down on the bat on your own just having the bat in hand so you get to know the true natures of its balance and feel and grow with it. You don't just get it and expect it to score runs for you its your paying partner and you are the one that takes control of it. You can swap and change all you want but at the end of the day your responsible for the shots played and selected. A bad workman always blames his tools. I'm not saying that you should use a bad bat because a bad bat is no use whatsoever as it saps confidence from you but people are all too ready to blame the bat or anything else for that matter for them not getting runs. As a bat maker I now don't try and pander to fashions I am just looking to deliver what we used to use as professionals and not go with fads, gimmicks and fashions. The way a cricket bat works has been good for hundreds of years and there is no reason to think that we should know any better that the master craftsmen 80 years ago science or no science there are only so many ways you can shape a piece of willow and only a few ways of pressing them. Every piece of willow has its own different properties that's why hand making is so good as you can make we each bat to suit that particular cleft machines are great as they churn out bat after bat exactly the same shape not mistake but a machine can't read the willow it reads a programme.
I am a traditionalist and love making bats the way I do by hand and would do it as a hobby just as I would have with cricket as I love it just as much and I truly believe that it takes a lot of hard work to do anything properly and nothing is instant and that is the way I operate as a business I will do things methodically and slowly to build the best business and the best products possible and intend to do so for many years to come and it's not about the money it's a way of life. I have no investors so it's all down to me so I am the only one to blame if anything goes wrong and likewise I haven't got to pander to others to satisfy their monetary needs, I've got enough of that with my mrs.
Ok so it ended up a bit of a waffle I apologise but we can talk for days about the virtues of this that and the other but at the end of the day a good bat is a good bat whoever has made it, but don't be blinded by all the rubbish talked about bats and willow, if you have ugly Betty in your hand and its scores you runs stick with her.

Bats_Entertainment · « **Reply #63 on:** December 18, 2013, 11:49:31 AM »

Is that butterfly stain on the Blueroom Bompara LE picture, Paul?

Aldred Cricket Bats · « **Reply #64 on:** December 18, 2013, 11:54:40 AM »

Sorry whats the blue room

Bats_Entertainment · « **Reply #65 on:** December 18, 2013, 11:57:23 AM »

http://custombats.co.uk/cbforum/index.php?topic=26695.0

Aldred Cricket Bats · « **Reply #66 on:** December 18, 2013, 11:59:57 AM »

Yes sorry got it rob packs room. No that's just a nice cleft with a natural growth mark in it. A butterfly stain is a definitive stain that is dark like heartwood and spans from a central smaller mark. These vary in size and shape.

Bats_Entertainment · « **Reply #67 on:** December 18, 2013, 12:12:51 PM »

Thanks.

jamesisapayne · « **Reply #68 on:** December 18, 2013, 01:34:05 PM »

Quote from: Aldred Cricket Bats on December 18, 2013, 11:23:32 AM

Mtown good question, I certainly don't profess to know all the science behind willow and everything that goes with it as I know many of the other bat makers seem to be able to talk about. All my knowledge is purely through experience, that experience is gained from years of playing cricket my knowledge of basic construction of which I learnt as my trade before I played cricket for a living and everything that I have learnt from making and learning the art of cricket bat making over the last 10 years of learning about it. I don't scrutinise what I do too much as I know what I am doing works as an old bat maker once told me and a guy I did my apprenticeship under when I left school, if it ain't broke don't fix it. So my view is basically that no specific willow is suited more to one certain style of play, a cleft that is naturally lighter will allow you to have more bulk in the bat for its weight. My personal view is that there has been a lot of hype about big bats, well when I was playing we had the older shaped bat even bats at 2-12/3lb didn't have huge amounts of wood in them compared to what we have today. I don't know if the willow had a higher moisture content but the bats didn't have the scooping out the back of the bat to allow for the bats to have huge edges they were full backs and thin parallel edges. Now players in first class cricket don't hit the ball any further than they did then but there was always a freak who was going to hit the ball out the ground just like there are now and they didn't bring the boundaries in then they kept big playing areas as there was no 20/20 game to try and bring excitement purely for boundaries.
So butterfly willow is just something that was such a popular buy when I was trying to get into cricket in the 90s as it was a fantastic performing blade but didn't cost as much as the top grade 1 bats and as a young man playing more cricket as an amateur than a professional I had to get what I could afford and they lasted pretty well too, but I have to say they weren't the cheapest of bats then that's for sure but a good compromise. Now over the last 15 years or so the trend has gone to pure white faces with nice perfect straight grains, which has got to the point that companies are selling lesser quality willow and having printed grains put on a sheet to cover the face of the bat to make it look perfect and whilst not selling at a premium price will sell at not far off what we charge for our top end bats. All because people are worried about the looks. Now a great quote from an old friend of mine who is no longer with us god bless him was about a bat he had which was a real ugly thing but I went like stink and he said, " I look at my bat like a good night at a night club, never rule out the fat lass as they try harder to please" now once I got back up off the floor from laughing and looked at what he said he was right, it's down to how the bat performs and how you learn how to work with it. As I have said before amateur players look at where the middles placed the shape the pick up its dead weight etc and then after all that think about the performance. As bog standard professional you get a couple of bats sent at the weight or around the weight you want you don't get given a particular choice of shapes you get what they want you to use especially as a young professional and as long as the bats are performing they don't mind and I have seen players score consistent runs in 1st class cricket with just ordinary looking bats by what you tend to look at in the shops, and that was before central contracts came in so against the Ambrose Walsh Donald etc .
My experience from being a professional suggests to me that it doesn't matter what you buy you need to get to know your bat, you need to spend time hitting balls with it with throw downs just pinging a ball up and down on the bat on your own just having the bat in hand so you get to know the true natures of its balance and feel and grow with it. You don't just get it and expect it to score runs for you its your paying partner and you are the one that takes control of it. You can swap and change all you want but at the end of the day your responsible for the shots played and selected. A bad workman always blames his tools. I'm not saying that you should use a bad bat because a bad bat is no use whatsoever as it saps confidence from you but people are all too ready to blame the bat or anything else for that matter for them not getting runs. As a bat maker I now don't try and pander to fashions I am just looking to deliver what we used to use as professionals and not go with fads, gimmicks and fashions. The way a cricket bat works has been good for hundreds of years and there is no reason to think that we should know any better that the master craftsmen 80 years ago science or no science there are only so many ways you can shape a piece of willow and only a few ways of pressing them. Every piece of willow has its own different properties that's why hand making is so good as you can make we each bat to suit that particular cleft machines are great as they churn out bat after bat exactly the same shape not mistake but a machine can't read the willow it reads a programme.
I am a traditionalist and love making bats the way I do by hand and would do it as a hobby just as I would have with cricket as I love it just as much and I truly believe that it takes a lot of hard work to do anything properly and nothing is instant and that is the way I operate as a business I will do things methodically and slowly to build the best business and the best products possible and intend to do so for many years to come and it's not about the money it's a way of life. I have no investors so it's all down to me so I am the only one to blame if anything goes wrong and likewise I haven't got to pander to others to satisfy their monetary needs, I've got enough of that with my mrs.
Ok so it ended up a bit of a waffle I apologise but we can talk for days about the virtues of this that and the other but at the end of the day a good bat is a good bat whoever has made it, but don't be blinded by all the rubbish talked about bats and willow, if you have ugly Betty in your hand and its scores you runs stick with her.

Paul, that's the most comprehensive and fun to read reply I think I've ever read. I like your honesty, and think that your views on owning/buying a bat are very mature and totally against the idea of self-promotion that some would jump at the chance to do - the idea of having one bat and using it/finding out its nuances/giving it enough time to perform properly is completely alien to quite a few people on here who seem to go through bats like wildfire.

I've learned a valuable lesson on here that constantly buying bats in the belief they have the answer to bad technique or patience is not the answer. The value I place on my current bat (one of two I own) has increased loads and the more I play with it the more I get an affinity with it.

Mtown Don · « **Reply #69 on:** December 18, 2013, 02:19:55 PM »

Thanks for such a considered, humorous and personal reply Paul. I agree with all of the above and love your style of throwing all of your thoughts down on the page.

I had in mind that the properties might have suited a slogger's/'t20' bat, allowing plenty of wood for the weight but resilient enough to endure a few hefty mis-hits but that doesn't really fit in with your policy of sticking with the basics of what works I guess

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Aldred Cricket Bats · « **Reply #70 on:** December 18, 2013, 03:06:48 PM »

Hefty blows and mis-hits. Hmmmm well we all have those don't we but I must say there are cultured mis-hits and there are the true agricultural mis-hits. What I have seen over the years and particularly now people have developed the misconception of how you can hit the ball since 20/20 has come in that people tend to blow the toes and lower inside edges on bats purely because they are trying to hit Yorker length balls into next week. It doesn't really matter what wood you use at some point it's going to break, its wood. You don't see pros trying to launch these out the ground you see them running them and just blocking them. A Yorker is a Yorker in anyone's money and is not a ball that's there to be launched over the boundary. The heavier the bat the more chance you have of it staying in tact as it has more bulk in it. A big light bat may not have the strength because its dryer hence not at strong.
My own selling point of view is that when I sell a bat to someone I don't expect to see them back for at least two years apart from to give it a clean up. Unless they are playing a hell of a lot of cricket, but let's make it clear that theory for me runs to good cricketers as I have found that lower standard players do have a tendency to break the toes and inside edges more through the type of shots they play. But then again if they are particularly poor the bat might last a lifetime.

Northern monkey · « **Reply #71 on:** December 18, 2013, 07:19:30 PM »

Mightily impressed both with your bats, and your refreshing philosophy regarding bat making
I have this forum to thank for highlighting your company and products, as I'd never heard of them before

I will be in touch to place an order in the new year,,,

Thank you for posting the pics and look forward to positive reviews that will hopefully follow

Aldred Cricket Bats · « **Reply #72 on:** December 18, 2013, 07:45:52 PM »

Thanks northern for your kind words. I have tried to look at it in the same way as I did with my cricket to be fair. I played cricket to see where I could go with it as my personal drive, but that all stemmed from the fact that I loved the game and striving to achieve was the thing that kept me going and the thought of playing alongside people I worshipped was a huge thought in the back of my mind and I still felt like that when I became professional. I look at making bats in the same way. I love doing it. I have found a love for a career that I had when I was playing and my drive beyond that is to quietly and honestly go about my job in the way that I can do it best and if further success comes of it all the better. I will give it my heart and soul and carry on enjoying it. I started the business with absolutely nothing and will just keep trying to move it forward in the best way I can and just as I do with my coaching I will try and share my experiences and knowledge as much as I can as I had one or two people do the same for me when I started in both careers.

Northern monkey · « **Reply #73 on:** December 18, 2013, 08:32:46 PM »

It's fairly obvious from the pictures of the bats,,that you have indeed applied this to the production of your bats..
It's a shame that over the last twenty years or so,,,,the quality and performance of certain high end bat producers has been a joke,,,,,

I'm not sure if that's down to a lack of decent willow? Or that manufacturers think we, as consumers will continue to buy sub standard products at over inflated prices, just because of clever marketing? My sons friend has just bought a M&H Amplus @ �400 just on the back of all out crickets review!!!!
But I think the more reviews and posts of companies like yours the better for all..
At the end of the day,,,we just want to smack seven bells out of the opposition bowling, with the best bit of willow we can afford

And from what you have said,,you love the game as much as we do,,,,,which in turn, means you understand what, we as consumers need out of a cricket bat

Kind regards

Mark

Steveo1000 · « **Reply #74 on:** December 18, 2013, 08:46:19 PM »

I really enjoyed reading the very thorough and entertaining post you wrote Paul, I haven't quoted the entire piece as it takes up a lot of space.
I agree with huge amounts of what you wrote, the one bit I disagree with and would be interested to hear your thoughts, and other thoughts on is the bit I have copied below.

As a bat maker I now don't try and pander to fashions I am just looking to deliver what we used to use as professionals and not go with fads, gimmicks and fashions. The way a cricket bat works has been good for hundreds of years and there is no reason to think that we should know any better that the master craftsmen 80 years ago science or no science there are only so many ways you can shape a piece of willow and only a few ways of pressing them.

I'm a big believer in embracing technology and using it to its fullest, and a believer that just because it was good 20, 30, 40 or even 80 years ago it doesn't for one moment mean it is of any relevance today.
The point of reference for me is always the people who use the equipment to make a living. I don't see any of the players on the international scene or the county scene for that matter using bats that have any resemblance to the bats used even 10 years ago. They use modern bats with all the gimmicks and fads because they are better than they were, if they were not they would not use them.
The same can be applied to golf and tennis, there are no professionals using wooden headed drivers or wooden tennis racquets because their job is to perform at the best of their abilities and only the most modern of equipment will allow them to do that.
Tradition in any sport is important as it keeps the soul of that sport centred, but I don't believe it has any place to play in the equipment that is used other than the parameters in size and materials used it sets out in the laws.
As I said, I really enjoyed and agreed with most of what you wrote, I just don't think tradition has much relevance in the design of modern sports equipment and don't think that progress should be dismissed as a fad or a gimmick.

Author Topic: Butterfly (Read 147686 times)

Number 11

Re: Butterfly

Mtown Don

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Aldred Cricket Bats

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Bats_Entertainment

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Aldred Cricket Bats

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Bats_Entertainment

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Aldred Cricket Bats

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Bats_Entertainment

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jamesisapayne

Re: Butterfly

Mtown Don

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Aldred Cricket Bats

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Northern monkey

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Aldred Cricket Bats

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Northern monkey

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Steveo1000

Re: Butterfly