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Author Topic: Off spinners - the "other one"  (Read 2738 times)

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WalkingWicket37

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Off spinners - the "other one"
« on: May 07, 2014, 09:11:19 AM »

Hi all

As a non turning off spinner I rely on change of pace and angle more than big spin, with the odd one gripping and surprising even me!

However, in the nets I was messing about with a "Dernbach slower ball" an noticed it moved some way, and the opposite way to my (miraculously turning) stock ball.
It might be easy to pick and slightly wayward at present, but I'm thinking with a bit of work I could use it as "the other one" in a match. People who hadn't seen me bowl before wouldn't be expecting it, an you can't have too many tricks up your sleeve can you?

Is there any other way to bowl a wrongun as an off spinner or will my back of the hand cannon fodder have to do?

Cheers
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Rob580

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2014, 09:16:04 AM »

When messing about with Offbreaks in the Nets, on Sundays and messing around in the Kitchen with a soft ball I have one that goes the other way (well I don't have one that goes the right way, but still)

Think it's just the Carrom Ball really, Hold the ball in your palm with only your thumb and the side of your ring finger on the ball and flick it out the front using the ring finger. Doesn't get that many revs, but it does seem to turn, even on grassy April wickets.
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Gingerbusiness

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2014, 09:21:29 AM »

I have been messing around with a Narine doosra and weirdly, it swings in quite alot.

I can bowl a Ajmal doosra but it is a big throw in my opinion so I never use it.

Difficult one.
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tuffers007

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2014, 09:24:59 AM »

You must put up a vid of this in action! I bowl left arm spin (orthodox) but I can bowl the leggie that comes in to the right handers. I just bowl a bog standard leg spin delivery which the batsmen can easily pick but what goes in my favour is the amount of spin and sharp turn i can generate(using the fingers and wrist combined) its that which surprises the batsmen.For years I tried to disguise it but with no luck. So to see this would be very helpful.
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lbg

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2014, 10:16:34 AM »

Hi guys. I am absolutely obsessed with this stuff so please forgive my long windedness. It is, in my opinion, really worth taking gentle steps towards a doosra just to see if you can bowl it after some work. I think that a lot of offies might be able to get there if they actually worked at it but are worried about injury or chucking. You might not be able to get there but it will increase the flexibility of your wrist just trying and that helps your ability to whip through your stock ball a lot.

All it needs to really be is a scrambled seam top spinner bowled from around the wicket (which is how Ajmal does it, albeit with a slight bit of side spin away from the right hander). The problem with the carrom ball a la Mendis, the knuckle ball a la Narine and the conventional away swinging arm ball is that they all skid a bit. This make them perfect for lbw and if you spin your stock off break hard enough and with a good amount of top spin then the contrast between the bouncing turning offie and the skiddy other one is useful for unsettling a batsman's cut and pull shots. However, if you really want to cause problems you have to be able to beat the outside edge with a variation and for that you will need the topspin that gives dip to draw the batsman forward.

Always bowl this cross seam. Your first finger should be able to pull on the seam at the top of your action and if you paused time and looked up you should be able to read the makers name on the ball you are using.
Get an incrediball and practice slowly from less than 22 yards. The first finger should be pulling over the top of the ball. Far more important is what you do with your second finger and thumb. Ajmal mimes pulling a trigger when explaining the doosra. You want to be pulling the second finger towards your palm as if firing a gun at the point fielder. The thumb is the other crucial factor. You can sometimes pick Ajmal on the tv by watching his thumb and it was famously one of the things to watch when Saqlain bowled. Basically you want to stick your thumb away from the ball and try to be conscious of bringing it directly over the top. It should pass over the ball as high as you can get it.

 Also really important is to get as chest on as possible as early as you can in your action.


As for the chuck.......
A LOT of people don't understand this.
The doosra has to be bowled with a slightly bent arm. This is to get the wrist right round to where it needs to be. It is NOT for imparting revs on the ball. It is in fact really hard to bowl a proper doosra if you straighten the arm too much because it pulls your wrist back around to the right. There is, however a need to chuck for the average bowler. I say "need" because it feels that way. Just like it feels necessary to use a lot of bottom hand when hitting over the top and feels necessary to jump a bit when trying to avoid a bouncer. These feelings are the reason good technique is hard to come by. We can practice getting around them.

When you start with a real ball you will immediately notice the main problem with bowling the doosra. Once you have arrived at the crease and landed from your jump you will be very chest on. You're arm will come around with the back of your hand facing the batsman and the gun fingers towards point stuff I mentioned ready to go. The big big problem is that all of the energy into the ball is taken away. It just doesn't feel like you could physically propel the bloody thing down there, regardless of how it is spinning. Your arm is slightly bent to achieve the right wrist position and here is where the chuck happens. This is incidentally the reason I do not bowl off spin. I love mystery spin in all it's forms and found (like countless others before me) that the leg break/googly/flipper/pie set up is easier.

BUT it is totally possible to deal with this problem. It takes strength or an action change. Each doosra bowler deals with this differently (apart from those that just chuck- like Shillingford might unfortunately be doing :(). Murali got the propulsion from his wrist strength and flexibility. But once again Ajmal is our best current example. He uses that pause in his action to brace and lean back before pushing hard off that base to deliver the doosra. He is a surprisingly stocky and strong.

In conclusion I have worked on the doosra with friends and teammates before and it always feels like they could get there with more practice once they figure it out. Look at George Dobell's recent comments on mystery spin. It just has to start being more accepted. Remember, you just want get to the point where you can bowl a pure top spinner and the odd one will have that 'towards first slip' doosra spin on it. It will also give your stock delivery a lot more top spin and in my experience it is is the number one problem with off spinners that they spin the ball too squarely and get less purchase than they should.

Cheers.
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uknsaunders

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2014, 11:01:29 AM »

Great post - I can bowl a type of Carrom ball but being a left arm spinner the angle makes the arm ball just as effective.

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brokenbat

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2014, 12:27:40 PM »

i tried for ages to work on a carrom ball and a doosra. then i figured out a short cut that is quite effective.

step 1: develop a big ripping offie. i can now turn the ball on most pitches. don't have to turn every ball, but if you can rip 1 in 4, its enough to set the batsman up for the 'other one'
step 2: with the same arm speed and action (this is key), bowl closer to the wicket and land the ball on off stump, but don't put much revs on the ball. if you do this right, the ball will surprise the batsman with the extra pace (because, unlike most people's "quicker ball", the reason for this ball's increase in speed is the lack of revs on the ball, not extra effort by the bowler), and the ball will bounce on off and move slightly away - enough to get an edge or a stumping.
the key is to keep the same speed in the shoulder rotation and arm speed.  if you try and bowl with extra effort, the batsmen will easily pick it up. Murali's arm speed was as fast as medium pacers. the reason why his deliveries were slow, was because all that energy was translated into the revs on the ball. so...if you maintain your normal action and arm speed, but put less revs on the ball, you are effectively bowling the best disguised 'arm ball' / quicker one possible. it is surprisingly effective - can even get away with a slightly short ball with this (a few guys have gotten out, going for the pull, and then realizing the ball was on them too quick).
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RossViper

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2014, 08:23:45 PM »

If you don't turn it one way, you can't have an other one, no?
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WalkingWicket37

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2014, 08:36:11 PM »

If you don't turn it one way, you can't have an other one, no?
Non turning spinners can always turn the wrongun, it's an unwritten rule ;)
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Steveo1000

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 08:50:34 PM »

At pretty much any level below ECB prem if you can bowl anything that goes the other way it will work. So as an off spinner chuck in the odd leggie, and as a leg spinner chuck in the odd offie.
I think that is much easier than trying to bowl mystery deliveries that 1% of the professionals playing the game can bowl.
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tim2000s

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2014, 09:03:15 PM »

Same is true for seam bowling. Stock ball goes one way. Variations go the other or straight on. Thems what gets wickets.

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ProCricketer1982

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2014, 09:09:04 PM »

Same is true for seam bowling. Stock ball goes one way. Variations go the other or straight on. Thems what gets wickets.

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don't forget 'variations' like half trackers and full tosses that are common wicket taking balls :)
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ajmw89

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2014, 08:21:29 AM »

I tend to find I can get more turn on the ball when I bowl with a scrambled seam, find my finger gets more purchase.

As for variations, I've started bowling around the wicket in the nets, so my offspinner sometimes straightens a touch, but my arm ball and leg spinnergenerally beat the outside edge.  I don't make any effort to disguise the leggie, but it sometimes comes out as the googly, which is doubly confusing for batsmen!

The arm ball is either an inswinger, outswinger or a scrambled seam delivery

mattcoll12491

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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2014, 10:03:01 AM »

There is an off-spinner at my club who's arm ball sometimes turns into the wrong'un as he cocks his wrist to far and so the ball comes out at a different angle. It confuses the heck out of our wicketkeeper as he barely turns his stock ball!
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Re: Off spinners - the "other one"
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2014, 10:27:05 AM »

I am a fan of pitching the ball in the same area for 6 balls rather than use all this change ups that never go to plan.....
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