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[smilley792]

Substitute aware with the word swear. 

Have you ever wondered why some people "swear" by 6-10 grains because most people set up there press that way because it's the common denominator.

[Six Sixes Cricket]

Just sounds like a way of offloading grade 3-4 bats etc at premium price.

If the next couple of years supply of willow suddenly produces a mass of grade 1 willow, the 'performance' will cease to exist and it will be back to grade 1 willow is the best.

Probably in excess of 95% of cricket bats made if pressed correctly will perform exactly the same.

[procricket]

Just sounds like a way of offloading grade 3-4 bats etc at premium price.

If the next couple of years supply of willow suddenly produces a mass of grade 1 willow, the 'performance' will cease to exist and it will be back to grade 1 willow is the best.

Probably in excess of 95% of cricket bats made if pressed correctly will perform exactly the same.

You mention it sound like offloading lower grades for money what about the other way selling higher grades for less too.

You say 95 per cent if pressed correctly should be the same but how many people actually press uniformally to how many press because that's what the cleft needs to being out the best in it.(Many so called bespoke makers do press all the same exactly no matter what cleft).

Clefts are different but there is a pattern and pattern is what we are looking for. It in its infancy currently but if you look at say our bats from 2 years ago to say now you will know the difference.

We are not trying to reinvent the wheel just change how the gears work with that wheel.

I have been doing so much research around and the truth is consistency is not there from alot because they just keep doing what they do they do not evolve.

This is all work in progress by the way but it shows the levels we are going to because in my eyes and others there too much chance when we feel there does not need to be.

And as for the grade 1 comment Rob look around i guess in the last 2 and a half years we have become (Uk based alone) i would have though in the top 6 users of clefts in the Uk we less than others worry about getting Grade 1 willow.

[Six Sixes Cricket]

I've no idea how all the bespoke bat makers press there bats, to find out you would have to spend time working with them otherwise your speculating on there process.

Let's be fair we've all commented on threads when someone has bought a grade1+bat that was sold to them as performance, which is way of offloading a lesser grade of bat.

I've bounced the ball on my 1 and 2 stripe and can't tell any difference, hence why I'm sceptical on how a bats performance can be truly measured but I'm on here for learning about willow and look forward to hearing all about this

[procricket]

No speculating anything mate my study is with big brands and small brands because there is simply not that many people pressing bats.

Agree about the point about learning about williow pal.

[amritpremi]

On a slightly different note I'll like to bring a bit of science in it, though I don't know 99.5% of it so would be a question to @The Doctor & @procricket B3 and other bat makers.
Last to Last year I was knocking in one of my bats which I feel performs very well from word go and is softly pressed. I was knocking my bat in one of the cricket grounds with a mallet and there was a store room/room sort of around 50 mts away. While knocking the sound the bat was producing was very nice and I could hear it reverberate very strongly from the room and the sound which reverberated was very sweet as well. The sound was reflected very strongly and I felt it was because the bat had very nice vibrations (ping). The sound was so strong that my mates asked me to stop knocking as they din't want to hear the sound so high which is coming in twice (and multiple times after fading). The bat which I felt was not that well performing didn't sound so good & didn't had such a good reflective response from the room and the sound would die sooner. What I want to say is can we bring in Physics here and and measure "Frequency" (or in our words ping) emitted by the bat while hitting with mallet (like we used to measure when a tong was hit on a rubber slab in our school life). The better the frequency or more the vibrations better the ping would be or the frequency should give a suggestion how well or bad a bat will play.

[tushar sehgal]

Fully Agree, and completely understand your scepticism. What I have in mind would remove all the old wives tales and would scientifically grade on performance alone.

I also agree that you couldn't charge the same price for 2 bats if they were of equal great performance if one was a tru 3 stripe and the other a 1 stripe.

Very keen to know what you've got up your sleeve Doc, I am a geek wannabe on the inside, "you had me at science"

[The Doctor]

Just sounds like a way of offloading grade 3-4 bats etc at premium price.

If the next couple of years supply of willow suddenly produces a mass of grade 1 willow, the 'performance' will cease to exist and it will be back to grade 1 willow is the best.

Probably in excess of 95% of cricket bats made if pressed correctly will perform exactly the same.

The motive for my research is not to offload grade 3 - 4 bats, rather to ensure the performance of our bats. But this thread has shown one thing that it is not as simple as I thought and really appreciate your thoughts. I do however think there is some merit here and it has never been B3's ethos to follow the crowd, instead to lead the way (hopefully).....


I love a challenge.

[ProCricketer1982]

You could just sell the low grades cheaply but garentee performance.. That might just tempt people into buying them instead of a big brand

[procricket]

You could just sell the low grades cheaply but garentee performance.. That might just tempt people into buying them instead of a big brand

Don't we already look at our prices we where the cheepest butterfly and not far off cheapest lower grades.

Also I use lower grades as well as higher and performance has been great in all grades because we press each cleft.

I guess unlike streaky I'm the other side practical not scientific I guess the test man and I have tested around 10 bats all different grades and different pressing.

We take the same care in butterfly as we do crown

I like this debate it like going back 6 years on the forum gets people actually talking about Willow

[The Doctor]

On a slightly different note I'll like to bring a bit of science in it, though I don't know 99.5% of it so would be a question to @The Doctor & @procricket B3 and other bat makers.
Last to Last year I was knocking in one of my bats which I feel performs very well from word go and is softly pressed. I was knocking my bat in one of the cricket grounds with a mallet and there was a store room/room sort of around 50 mts away. While knocking the sound the bat was producing was very nice and I could hear it reverberate very strongly from the room and the sound which reverberated was very sweet as well. The sound was reflected very strongly and I felt it was because the bat had very nice vibrations (ping). The sound was so strong that my mates asked me to stop knocking as they din't want to hear the sound so high which is coming in twice (and multiple times after fading). The bat which I felt was not that well performing didn't sound so good & didn't had such a good reflective response from the room and the sound would die sooner. What I want to say is can we bring in Physics here and and measure "Frequency" (or in our words ping) emitted by the bat while hitting with mallet (like we used to measure when a tong was hit on a rubber slab in our school life). The better the frequency or more the vibrations better the ping would be or the frequency should give a suggestion how well or bad a bat will play.

The "ping" is a different research area altogether.

I should add that noise alone of the "ping" although associated with perormance has nothing to do with how far the ball goes, and this has been scientifically proven in golf.

[Boondougal]

love this thread.

I have been thinking about it on my 4 hour journey home.  The business man in me thought your consumer would love a performance index but as B3 you will never be able to buy willow based on it. If it really worked then the danger is you end up with willow you can't sell because it doesn't "perform".

What i assume is the mass Bat making suppliers have to assume that some willow will just be a plank... it runs through the production line and ends up in the market place... maybe someone will buy it... maybe if they do they will complain, but iekly they won't.

If as B3 you create a meaningful way of determining performance then you have a perfect foil to promote your own brand and 100% customer satisfaction.. which is priceless. If as B3 you also produce for other brands then you also have the perfect avenue for moving willow. Its a great business model.

[tim2000s]

So here is an interesting curve ball to chuck into this one.

I have two butterfly bats made by B3 and Hunts. I also have a custom GM made in Robertsbridge by, I believe, a mr Chris King. What all of these bats have in common (I understand from the manufacturers) is pressing specific for the cleft, and all go really, really well, to the extent that people all comment on this aspect when they are used.

What this suggests to me is that if you can press to a pattern, I.e. optimally for each cleft, then you can get the beat out of each and every cleft. There is one issue with this, and that is that to do this consumes time that isn't available when mass producing.

I fully understand where the Doc is coming from on this. If you can determine a pattern for how willow should be pressed then you can guarantee, within bounds, what the performance should be. Whilst each cleft *is* different, the overall variability of a selection of clefts is likely to follow a normal distribution which will make it much more straightforward to identify patterns amongst cleft characteristics.

David, I'm happy to play guinea pig in any sort of blind tests you are considering setting up. I think I get the theory and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

I don't think achieving your aim will be your biggest issue. I think overcoming a sceptical public that has been sold "performance grading" for a number of years by a wide range of batmakers will be your biggest challenge!

[Northern monkey]

The majority of presses I've seen, have been of the basic hand wheel and screw type for the pressure adjustment .
Which is fine when your pressing clefts individually and adjusting pressure when required.
I think the Charlie French press is hydraulic which would suggest an optimal pressure could be set ,(through experience )
And clefts could be run through without the need for constant checking.?

To be honest , this is the one part of batmaking that seems to have gone backward over the years.
At the moment. The lottery with bat selection, is leading to the lack of trust across the industry

[amritpremi]

The "ping" is a different research area altogether.

I should add that noise alone of the "ping" although associated with perormance has nothing to do with how far the ball goes, and this has been scientifically proven in golf.

I didn't want to bring the noise into picture, I was rather interested in highlighting bat vibrations. If yhe bat vibrated well (not the handle vibrations) but the sweet spot vibration. I feel how well  & effortlessly a bat vibrates defines how well a bat plays. But I know how amatuer I am in talking clefts and its properties.