Topic: Bat prices in recent years (Read 11333 times)

Sitonit · « **on:** April 24, 2015, 10:34:14 PM »

So there used to be L&W Signature that was �600 odd, this was a jaw dropping price for a piece of wood.
While many other bat makers would not cross the �250 odd price mark for their top end bats.

But now, almost every other bat maker has bats up to �400 to �500.
Matter of fact, Cenkos was priced for �1000.

And these bats are not even designed to last for long.

So what is it? Inflated prices? Severe shortage of timber or a tweak in craftsman-ship where raw clefts are simply not pressed hard enough or sometimes over dried to keep them swelled?

Obviously, the quality of trees and the wood they produce is the same as it was 15 years ago.

The Palmist · « **Reply #1 on:** April 25, 2015, 06:35:14 AM »

Not an expert but severe shortage of timbers sound more like a ploy to me. You hear about shortage and then some Indian factory will churn out grainy beauties at fraction of prices. Also if there was such shortage, why would we get so many labels cropping up.

The main reason is because price of living has gone up, cost of sponsorship has gone up, number of punters willing to spend money has gone up.

This has been debated many times in various topics so be careful with what you post else risk losing the thread.

Northern monkey · « **Reply #2 on:** April 25, 2015, 06:37:55 AM »

Some of the prices seem ridiculous nowadays .
Especially when you can get a ton master for 50 quid ish delivered, , ,
But maybe that's the answer, ,the Asian companies are buying the majority of English willow stocks?
Obviously labour charges and overheads are a fraction of uk costs, but you would have thought shipping back to the uk would cancel that out?

I remember going to ACE cricket bats and paying 100 pounds for a grade two bat , many moons ago, that was on a par with today's grade one plus performance pro or whatever it's called.

I suppose as long as we are prepared to pay these prices, the manufacturers and retailers will continue to charge the prices they can.

ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 25, 2015, 08:19:09 AM »

Quote from: Northern monkey on April 25, 2015, 06:37:55 AM

I suppose as long as we are prepared to pay these prices, the manufacturers and retailers will continue to charge the prices they can.

Business is no longer there to earn a living wage, it's there to make maximum profit for the owner and shareholders. To that end, they simply charge max price they can and while people keep paying it, they'll just raise the price each year. Add some marketing fluff around it to dress it up and boom... That bat that cost them 60 in materials and say 60 in time/elec can be sold for 300+ .

There is big money in retail still, especially in these markets where the isn't competition driving prices down

tim2000s · « **Reply #4 on:** April 25, 2015, 09:13:52 AM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on April 25, 2015, 08:19:09 AM

There is big money in retail still, especially in these markets where the isn't competition driving prices down

having gone through this in detail with the mongoose guys when I was checking out the possibility of crowd funding, this is just not true. Sports retail is massively knackered by sports direct. Very low margins.

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ProCricketer1982 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 25, 2015, 10:50:05 AM »

Quote from: tim2000s on April 25, 2015, 09:13:52 AM

having gone through this in detail with the mongoose guys when I was checking out the possibility of crowd funding, this is just not true. Sports retail is massively knackered by sports direct. Very low margins.

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i dunno, maybe you're right if you have to have big over heads. If you can actually cut the over heads and take a wage (so not mega bucks just because you own it), I suspect prices would and could fall a fair bit. Obviously to those it's not in their interests to compete and force prices and so profit down

Seniorplayer · « **Reply #6 on:** April 25, 2015, 11:30:13 AM »

Discussed this with an establised batmaker earlier this year he told me that there was a shortage of premium willow.

Bulldog Cricket · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2015, 12:01:12 PM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on April 25, 2015, 08:19:09 AM

Business is no longer there to earn a living wage, it's there to make maximum profit for the owner and shareholders. To that end, they simply charge max price they can and while people keep paying it, they'll just raise the price each year. Add some marketing fluff around it to dress it up and boom... That bat that cost them 60 in materials and say 60 in time/elec can be sold for 300+ .

There is big money in retail still, especially in these markets where the isn't competition driving prices down

Another award coming your way Adie.

tim2000s · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2015, 01:36:05 PM »

Quote from: ProCricketer1982 on April 25, 2015, 10:50:05 AM

i dunno, maybe you're right if you have to have big over heads. If you can actually cut the over heads and take a wage (so not mega bucks just because you own it), I suspect prices would and could fall a fair bit. Obviously to those it's not in their interests to compete and force prices and so profit down

I don't know where you get this impression that the cricket equipment industry is a mega bucks industry from. I know what the accounts looked like for mongoose. It's not even about big overheads. Running a business in this industry is hard work and not massively lucrative.

In order to earn a living wage you have to make a profit. If you want to make �30k per year (average UK wage) you need to be able to sell enough items with a mark up that gives you that. As an independent retailer you are very unlikely to sell 30,000 items of cricket gear a year so you have to mark up to a reasonable number.

Then you include your costs, and all of a sudden those prices don't look inflated. And given that most businesses start with an investment from somewhere that is either a loan or a capital injection, both of which require a return, whether interest or a percentage return on capital, everything you charge is accounted for. It's not looking for huge profits. It's simply making sure that everyone who has contributed to the business existing, whether that is local business rates, bank loans, goods or people, gets paid their fair amount.

There simply isn't much left after that. Cricket equipment is not a mega bucks industry. Cricket in general is not a mega bucks industry. Just look at the number of counties under water, the number of national cricket boards unable to pay players, etc. IPL (and maybe BBL) is where the big bucks are thanks to TV rights. That's about it.

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Sitonit · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2015, 03:00:26 PM »

Quote from: tim2000s on April 25, 2015, 01:36:05 PM

I don't know where you get this impression that the cricket equipment industry is a mega bucks industry from. I know what the accounts looked like for mongoose. It's not even about big overheads. Running a business in this industry is hard work and not massively lucrative.

In order to earn a living wage you have to make a profit. If you want to make �30k per year (average UK wage) you need to be able to sell enough items with a mark up that gives you that. As an independent retailer you are very unlikely to sell 30,000 items of cricket gear a year so you have to mark up to a reasonable number.

Then you include your costs, and all of a sudden those prices don't look inflated. And given that most businesses start with an investment from somewhere that is either a loan or a capital injection, both of which require a return, whether interest or a percentage return on capital, everything you charge is accounted for. It's not looking for huge profits. It's simply making sure that everyone who has contributed to the business existing, whether that is local business rates, bank loans, goods or people, gets paid their fair amount.

There simply isn't much left after that. Cricket equipment is not a mega bucks industry. Cricket in general is not a mega bucks industry. Just look at the number of counties under water, the number of national cricket boards unable to pay players, etc. IPL (and maybe BBL) is where the big bucks are thanks to TV rights. That's about it.

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This is actually a very, very good post.

And I guess the scenario is true for many, many other small business owners.

The outsiders may get an impression that a certain business is a gold mine, but the owner actually lives on the edge with a huge and hidden cost of business that outsiders sometimes can't see. Everyday is a quest of survival where the owner sees his time and investments vulnerable of taking a hit from big competitors who come up with new marketing ploys every other day. A big fish always on the hunt for small fish.

On a separate note though, Tim, sometimes I do wonder, and perhaps you may have an input.
Hypothetically, if someone plans to start a business of growing his own willow from the scratch, will it be true that he has to wait a good 5 to 10 odd years before harvesting the first crop?

I mean, how stressful and painful of an investment this could be? Perhaps it's one of those deals where one generation plants and the next generation eats the fruit?

Buzz · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2015, 04:31:36 PM »

Trees can't be harvested for a min of 10 years.

Seniorplayer · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2015, 05:11:10 PM »

Quote from: Buzz on April 25, 2015, 04:31:36 PM

Trees can't be harvested for a min of 10 years.

Willow trees should not be harvested for 10 years but they are.

Tom · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2015, 06:06:17 PM »

There have been numerous changes in the past 10-20 years which have affected the market, and have increased bat prices.

Player sponsorship values have gone up in the last 20 years. Adidas/Nike/Reebok coming into all the markets, and the internationalisation of cricket with the IPL, meant that you have to pay tens of thousands to get a good player. Adidas don't make their money selling bats, so will fork out whatever is necessary to secure the real superstars like KP and ST. Mongooses yearly sponsorship retainers were at �340,000 a year at its peak with Symonds and Hayden. It's a lot of bats you have to sell to cover those costs, but if you want to supercharge your business and get into the UK's top retailers you need to sponsor cricketers. Look how Hunts County and Fearnley have dropped off since they stopped.

Secondly - whilst the raw materials may only cost �60, someone needs to make them and there's the shipping/import taxes if that's going on in India rather than the UK. Retailers take roughly a 50% cut of any sales, so the profit margins on the majority of your bats you sell (mid grade mens, or kashmir/low grade jnr bats) can be as slim as �5-10 a bat. Retailers have also felt the squeeze of Sports Direct, and the increase in rents on the high street - that leads to them wanting discounts from the manufacturer. The internet has also changed the way manufacturers work. A manufacturer carries a lot more stock now than they did previously, as shops have a tendency to order in 1/2 bats at a time to fulfill orders rather than placing a large October and March order, like they did previously. This makes the market harder to predict, and leads to wastage.

Thirdly - It's correct in saying willow has gotten more expensive. So bat prices naturally increase. For every �5 extra you spend on willow, the end user will probably see a cost increase of �20.

Everyone is correct in saying �400 is a hell of a lot for a bat. The gross margin on these is quite good, but manufacturers do not sell tonnes of these. The majority of their sales happen in the mid-ranges, where margins are significantly tighter. If everyone was making a fortune out of cricket why would we see Woodworm and Mongoose going bust in the last 5 years? Smaller brands such as Smasher or Phoenix, have also gone to the wall. Puma have scaled back cricketing operations. Even the podfather, Julian Millichamp, has given up batmaking

Seniorplayer · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2015, 06:51:57 PM »

Excellent informative post Tom.

Manormanic · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2015, 07:01:33 PM »

Quote from: Sitonit on April 25, 2015, 03:00:26 PM

The outsiders may get an impression that a certain business is a gold mine, but the owner actually lives on the edge with a huge and hidden cost of business that outsiders sometimes can't see. Everyday is a quest of survival where the owner sees his time and investments vulnerable of taking a hit from big competitors who come up with new marketing ploys every other day. A big fish always on the hunt for small fish.

My late father ran a glass, china and cookware business for closed on thirty years. He once told a loyal customer that his profit margin post generous discount was 50% - the response was such that he never ever told another soul.

People assume that the cost at which something is ought is the only expense some businesses have and that is patently not true.

Are there some vastly overpriced cricket bats out there? Sure - but the overall market is probably not that inflated.

Author Topic: Bat prices in recent years (Read 11333 times)

Sitonit

Bat prices in recent years

The Palmist

Re: Bat prices in recent years

Northern monkey

Re: Bat prices in recent years

ProCricketer1982

Re: Bat prices in recent years

tim2000s

Re: Bat prices in recent years

ProCricketer1982

Re: Bat prices in recent years

Seniorplayer

Re: Bat prices in recent years

Bulldog Cricket

Re: Bat prices in recent years

tim2000s

Re: Bat prices in recent years

Sitonit

Re: Bat prices in recent years

Buzz

Re: Bat prices in recent years

Seniorplayer

Re: Bat prices in recent years

Tom

Re: Bat prices in recent years

Seniorplayer

Re: Bat prices in recent years

Manormanic

Re: Bat prices in recent years