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Author Topic: India vs New Zealand test series  (Read 14777 times)

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Vitas Cricket

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #90 on: October 10, 2016, 01:57:34 PM »

Agreed, but without looking at the stats, I'm prepared to bet 5 English Pounds that a wide majority of Jimmy's wickets have come on Green tops. Doesn't really matter where the pitch is (to a certain extent), if it suits your style, you'll take wickets.

Of course, but Jimmy does have a record of wickets in all countries (if not all formats, he has always been whacked in white ball cricket down under) as do all of the top bowlers in history. The Indian press are making Ashwin out to be some sort of bowling version of Tendulkar when the reality is he's never really done much outside of India, and certainly Asia.

I knew there would be someone who would make out that the pitches India have been preparing for home series over the past 2 years have nothing to do with it. Ashwin has opened the bowling on a number of occasions in test matches in 2016, including on the first day of a test!

He's obviously very talented with bat and ball, but he can't be seen as some sort of demi god without taking wickets in England, Aus and SA. Probably have to add NZ to that list nowadays, Sri Lanka and WI are very poor currently so most teams would expect to travel there and win almost by default.

roco

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #91 on: October 10, 2016, 02:30:18 PM »

I do think currently though, world cricket don't have one outstanding side. Most teams seem to be very strong at home and not so good away. And this is possibly reflected in the individual stats of bowlers too?

Can't agree with this more

how many sides do what the great west indies and Australian sides did and win home and away

England produce green swingers
Australia produce quick bouncy tracks
India produce turners from day 1

its the way of the world now, sides give themselves the best chance of winning at home and hope for the best away.

I would agree further with what was said earlier and give toss to the oppo then see if that helps or take pitch prep out of home board control and under an ICC rep
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Mr_Orange

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #92 on: October 10, 2016, 02:34:24 PM »

Of course, but Jimmy does have a record of wickets in all countries (if not all formats, he has always been whacked in white ball cricket down under) as do all of the top bowlers in history. The Indian press are making Ashwin out to be some sort of bowling version of Tendulkar when the reality is he's never really done much outside of India, and certainly Asia.

I knew there would be someone who would make out that the pitches India have been preparing for home series over the past 2 years have nothing to do with it. Ashwin has opened the bowling on a number of occasions in test matches in 2016, including on the first day of a test!

He's obviously very talented with bat and ball, but he can't be seen as some sort of demi god without taking wickets in England, Aus and SA. Probably have to add NZ to that list nowadays, Sri Lanka and WI are very poor currently so most teams would expect to travel there and win almost by default.

A quick run through of Cricinfo's stats database tells you all you need to know...

Career averages
            Mat    Wkts  BBI   BowlAv 5/Inn
Overall:  39    213    7/66    24.81     20
In Asia:  26      172  7/66  20.54     18   
ROW:     13      41    7/83  42.73      2   

Clearly dominant in Asia.

As a comparison, and because his name was mentioned, here's Anderson in England, Asia and elsewhere
Career averages
            Mat    Wkts  BBI   BowlAv 5/Inn
Overall: 119      463   7/43  28.28     21
England: 69       296   7/43  25.6      17
Asia:      17       55    5/72  28.29      1
ROW:     33       112  6/42  35.28      3

Surprising that the ROW stat is so high, and that is bought down by averaging 24 in the WI. There is definitely a smaller range in Jimmy's numbers (roughly 10 runs per wicket between in England and ROW) compared to Ashwin in Asia and elsewhere which is at a difference of 22 runs per wicket!
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ppccopener

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #93 on: October 10, 2016, 02:40:11 PM »

Can't agree with this more

how many sides do what the great west indies and Australian sides did and win home and away

England produce green swingers
Australia produce quick bouncy tracks
India produce turners from day 1

its the way of the world now, sides give themselves the best chance of winning at home and hope for the best away.

I would agree further with what was said earlier and give toss to the oppo then see if that helps or take pitch prep out of home board control and under an ICC rep

interesting comparing era's...the game has changed obviously and moved forward. The Aussies we beat in 2005 often touted as the greatest team ever.....but the Windies of the late 70's and 80's did not lose a test series for I think 10 years. they played in all conditions and were truly unbeatable, and most of the time did it with part time spin in the sub-continent. they are the greatest team in my book but no doubt Australian supporters will think they were(during their golden period)

England are as guilty as anybody producing wickets for Anderson and Broad, and when he played Swanny.

I honestly think now with the test teams records, the oppo should be awarded the toss if away
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Felix Tito

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #94 on: October 10, 2016, 02:57:30 PM »

So this forum has gone from suggesting Ashwin is crap, to comparing him to Anderson...

Seam bowlers always have the intimidation factor which spinners don't. Hence the difference in records outside both home conditions. Even the most basic tailender can slog a spinner around. Good luck trying to slog a seam bowler around if you ain't all that hot with the willow...
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smilley792

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #95 on: October 10, 2016, 03:04:17 PM »

So this forum has gone from suggesting Ashwin is crap, to comparing him to Anderson...

Seam bowlers always have the intimidation factor which spinners don't. Hence the difference in records outside both home conditions. Even the most basic tailender can slog a spinner around. Good luck trying to slog a seam bowler around if you ain't all that hot with the willow...

No one suggested Ashwin was crap.

And the Anderson thing is this forum to a tee, anyone dare discuss a bowler from a different nation and someone always has to bring up andersons poor Row record. Like it means we shouldn't be allowed to have a discussion because of it.

Just because Anderson doesn't travel well doesn't mean we can't discuss other bowlers on here!!!!
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Mr_Orange

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2016, 03:41:29 PM »

Definitely not suggesting Ashwin is crap (at the end of the day you can only bowl when you're picked in the conditions given to you! make the most of them!), and the comparison isn't a like for like in terms of the bowler it's just seeing whether they really do have a much stronger home record than away. It's a discussion I wouldn't mind looking into for bowlers like Dale Steyn and Shane Warne (who has a poor record in India if I recall correctly...) and going further back to seeing how the great WI bowlers coped worldwide.

When I looked at the stats it really surprised me at the changes both bowlers have when you break it down.

I also looked at Swann's averages and he was pretty much at an average of 28 worldwide. I just put down Ashwin & Anderson as both get stick for being average at best outside of their favoured conditions. Feel free to research others! It's pretty interesting.
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tate035

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #97 on: October 10, 2016, 04:00:11 PM »

So this forum has gone from suggesting Ashwin is crap, to comparing him to Anderson...

Seam bowlers always have the intimidation factor which spinners don't. Hence the difference in records outside both home conditions. Even the most basic tailender can slog a spinner around. Good luck trying to slog a seam bowler around if you ain't all that hot with the willow...

Again, not quite sure where you are coming from. Not many poor batting 10's or 11's in test cricket anymore.
Also don't many captains bowl their spinner if the late order are sticking around? I genuinely believe late order batsmen would rather face pace than a spinner on turning wicket. IMHO
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CrickFreak

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #98 on: October 10, 2016, 04:01:00 PM »

Can anyone put into one paragraph what makes Ashwin such a good bowler, as I have never really seen him bowl. Is it height, prodigious turn, freaky wrist?

His biggest asset is his ability to out think the batsman. Skill wise he is little better than other offies but nothing exceptional. His height is a definite advantage, turn with bounce is hardest to play.

PS: not sure if you are serious when you said havent seen Ashwin bowl.
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wasted_talent

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #99 on: October 10, 2016, 04:12:00 PM »

Has anyone said anything about his action? :)
Or maybe I am been too harsh. But certainly, at times, it looks a little suspect?
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CrickFreak

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #100 on: October 10, 2016, 04:19:32 PM »

Got bored reading "who is better" posts....

Great knock by Kohli. If you analyze his 211 - hit 20 boundaries and not a single 6, and ran 131 runs. A true test match innings.
Amazing how he is able to switch between formats so well. Failed in first 2 test matches and cameback strong in 3rd, thats what great batsmen do - they are able to comeback after few failures and never seem like they were in bad form. Average batsmen just continue to slip and eventually lose their spot.
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lethalshrapnel

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #101 on: October 10, 2016, 06:11:12 PM »

A quick run through of Cricinfo's stats database tells you all you need to know...

Career averages
            Mat    Wkts  BBI   BowlAv 5/Inn
Overall:  39    213    7/66    24.81     20
In Asia:  26      172  7/66  20.54     18   
ROW:     13      41    7/83  42.73      2   

Clearly dominant in Asia.

As a comparison, and because his name was mentioned, here's Anderson in England, Asia and elsewhere
Career averages
            Mat    Wkts  BBI   BowlAv 5/Inn
Overall: 119      463   7/43  28.28     21
England: 69       296   7/43  25.6      17
Asia:      17       55    5/72  28.29      1
ROW:     33       112  6/42  35.28      3

Surprising that the ROW stat is so high, and that is bought down by averaging 24 in the WI. There is definitely a smaller range in Jimmy's numbers (roughly 10 runs per wicket between in England and ROW) compared to Ashwin in Asia and elsewhere which is at a difference of 22 runs per wicket!

A slightly less quick look at statsguru will paint a vastly different picture.

Ashwin -

            Mat    Wkts       BBI      BowlAv   5/Inn
Overall:  39    213         7/66     24.81       20
In Asia:  26      172      7/66     20.54       18   
ROW:     13      41        7/83     42.73        2   

Anderson in his first 39 matches -

                   Mat      Wkts     BBI      BowlAv    5/Inn
Overall:        39         134     7/43      34.26       6
England:       24          98      7/43      29.18       5
Asia:              5           12      4/40      45.41       0
ROW:            15          36       5/73      48.11       1

It's vastly disingenuous to compare the stats of one bowler just entering his prime to another whose career is beginning to end. Anderson's overall record in Asia is incredible without a doubt but it took him time and experience to get there. As did McGrath. Dale Steyn was very good in the subcontinent much quicker and that's just one other thing that sets him apart. And typically spinners take longer to mature than pace bowlers. Almost all great spin bowlers started off with average away records. If you can actually look at Ashwin's stats after setting down them chips on your shoulders you will find that they are in fact remarkable.

For those of you who haven't seen Ashwin a lot - I have watched him bowling from the time he was a teenager. When I first heard that he made it to the test team on the basis of his t20 bowling I was surprised. He mostly bowled flat and quick back then. I was even more surprised when he destroyed admittedly mediocre sides at home and effectively ended Harbhajjan's career. But not at all surprised when he failed against Peterson and Cook. I had even predicted India's defeat back then. And sure enough, he struggled and lost his place in the team as he failed horribly when the team toured. But what happened in the next one year or so, behind the scenes, is why so many people are so excited about Ashwin. He unveiled a more conventional action in the limited overs games before the tour to Australia. He still waddled liked a duck to the crease but the finish was totally different. He was more side on, his left arm was fully active and he was really throwing his body behind the ball. Suddenly, he was flighting the ball more, getting drift and dip. He played three matches in Australia that year and didn't get a lot of wickets but you could already see that he was vastly different bowler. This is just a guess on my part but I have a feeling in that one year he must have seen a ton of Graeme Swann's footage and broken down and distilled all the classical offspinner's virtues. He has been refining these virtues tirelessly these last couple of years. He has always got a lot of bounce and that combined with his turn and accuracy makes it very hard to cut him. He frequently bowls with 7-2 fields these days without a point and plugs the leg side completely. He is also landing the natural variation where the ball lands on the non-seam part of the ball and goes straight on frequently. Its nigh on impossible to pick out of the hand or play it off the pitch. He also bowls the arm ball and the carrom ball although he mostly uses these to keep good batsmen on their toes or to run through tailenders. While mastery of the classical off spinner's virtues make him so great what sets him apart is clearly his intellect. It is what allowed him to completely reinvent himself and it is what makes him so dangerous on the field. He is constantly analysing and setting plans. You don't really need stats to see how good he has become. If you had just watched him operate against Kane Williamson these last three innings, that would have sufficed. I'm guessing you will see what the fuss is soon enough. Or not ;) Will he be much better when he tours England and Australia next time? Almost certainly. Will he be running through sides? Probably not. I'd imagine the odd five wicket haul here and there but mostly he will command respect and tie up one end. And that would vastly improve the way our fast bowlers perform. Thus ends my mini primer on Ashwin.
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dcullen8

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #102 on: October 10, 2016, 07:23:02 PM »

No matter how you spin it you cant compare stats between the two, one made debut at 21 and probably played those 39 games under the age of 25/26?, one made debut at 25 and played those 39 games up to the age of 30. Different age, different maturities, different levels of experience domestically etc etc. Pointless.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 08:52:10 PM by dcullen8 »
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GoodLeave

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #103 on: October 10, 2016, 07:47:22 PM »


As a comparison, and because his name was mentioned, here's Anderson in England, Asia and elsewhere
Career averages
            Mat    Wkts  BBI   BowlAv 5/Inn
Overall: 119      463   7/43  28.28     21
England: 69       296   7/43  25.6      17
Asia:      17       55    5/72  28.29      1
ROW:     33       112  6/42  35.28      3

Surprising that the ROW stat is so high, and that is bought down by averaging 24 in the WI. There is definitely a smaller range in Jimmy's numbers (roughly 10 runs per wicket between in England and ROW) compared to Ashwin in Asia and elsewhere which is at a difference of 22 runs per wicket!

Wow. Think I've lost my 5 English Pounds.

Them's good stats!
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potzy248

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Re: India vs New Zealand test series
« Reply #104 on: October 11, 2016, 07:19:22 AM »

We are absolutely cooked. We won't last 40 overs.
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