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[Manormanic]

Woakes is doing well - he has understood the weaknesses in his game at the top level and tried to address them.  I never thought he would manage it, but he has got to the stage where - at least in England - he is test class.

But he is never going to win a game from nowhere by force of personality.

Flintoff did, Stokes has started to and will do so more.

I agree that Freddie's figures do him less justice than any other England bowlers of recent times (even more so than Anderson and Hoggard).  His first twenty or so games, when he was very definitely a batsman who turned his arm over, perhaps distort the quality of what went afterward.  As did the fact that his three peak years, which accounted for 40% of his Test career, came in a stellar attack in which he had to fight for wickets with Harmison and Jones' extreme wheels, Hoggard's supreme swing and, as daft as it sounds, Ashley Giles' ability to pick up wickets when batsmen sought to get going whilst the had the chance. 

The guy was a beast.  You mention "that" over but he bowled whole spells as good - I'd suggest any young bowler watch the way he destroyed the Aussies at the Oval in '05 - 12 staright overs of pace, movement, bounce and not a bad ball in sight.

[Johnny]

+1

[procricket]

(No Swearing Please) the bed

Ben Stokes is decent but he has not proved all that much so far other than potential and the odd world class effort.

Yes he has shown recently consistency to a degree.

Woakes has been polorized by so many but has been a decent cricketer for a long time...

I dare say for all the stat mongers

look at Woakes vs Stokes

Very interesting if you go off stats

Chris Woakes hammers Stokes in most STATS.

I'm not suggesting one is better than the other but so many people have this opioion on Stokes because he his a more flamboyant so called match winner when Woakes is seen as a honest trier.

STATS ONLY TELL SO MUCH GRANATED BUT WOAKES stats do add up to being a very very good player. 

[procricket]

OH MY TEAM

Tres
Cook
Trott
Root (spinner)
KP
Bell
Prior
Woakes/Moeen/Stokes
Jones
Broad
Anderson

[petehosk]

I like the improvement in Woakes! He was a medium fast bowler but obviously worked really hard and gained 5mph! You have to respect that effort and hard work. And I think he is reaping the reward now.
Is he as good as Stokes? Most of the arguments seem to suggest that he is not quite as good. But am I happy to have both of them in the Test team as all-rounders? Too sodding right I am!!

[procricket]

Stokes for me has to kick on like he has been doing and do it against the best more often... He has the potential but I feel he has never moved on. Yes he is a flair player and all I get that.

Agree with @Alvaro without Stokes England would be boring to watch as hell

[Manormanic]

I like the improvement in Woakes! He was a medium fast bowler but obviously worked really hard and gained 5mph! You have to respect that effort and hard work. And I think he is reaping the reward now.
Is he as good as Stokes? Most of the arguments seem to suggest that he is not quite as good. But am I happy to have both of them in the Test team as all-rounders? Too sodding right I am!!

I don't really think that they are competing for the same spot.  Stokes is a frontline batsman who balances the side by being a very decent fifth bowler - he will usually bowl the old ball overs looking for reverse swing.

Woakes is a hard ball conventional swing bowler who has added the extra 5mph that mean he is treated with respect by international player - he will mostly bowl the front end overs.  His batting is purely a bonus - I know he did on debut but the evidence does not *yet* support the idea that he could bat six in tests; after all, he has two fifties and a top score of 66.  He would be more a like for like comparison with players such as Tim Bresnan and, further back, Ashley Giles - picked as bowlers, happen to be better than just holding a bat.

[Alvaro]

Woakes is by far superior to Giles and Bresnan.

He is probably a better bat than Ballance too.

[jamielsn15]

Our club skipper is woakes's FA. Alongside him I've spoken to a few guys who know him and all talk about the work he's put into his all round game over the last 3-4 years. Frankly, it shows, he's been arguably our most consistent performer across 2016. He bowls as quick, or quicker than anyone else available, puts it in the right areas and we'd have dreamed of an all rounder of his quality even five years ago.

I'd wager he'll  be better for England than Freddie and possibly more consistent than stokes. Totally agree his first class stats are surprisingly good...

[Manormanic]

Woakes is by far superior to Giles and Bresnan.

He is probably a better bat than Ballance too.

To speak up for Bressie lad, I have to point out that Woakes has yet to acheive anything like the success that Tim had in his international career - he has done well, admittedly, but against some fairly weak opposition which burnishes his stats, and has not performed the hard yards that Tim had to behind other bowlers. 

[procricket]

To speak up for Bressie lad, I have to point out that Woakes has yet to acheive anything like the success that Tim had in his international career - he has done well, admittedly, but against some fairly weak opposition which burnishes his stats, and has not performed the hard yards that Tim had to behind other bowlers.

Is that the 1 5 for and 1 50 Tim.

He was decent but Woakes is a upgrade on him.

Sorry but your Yorkshire glasses need adjusting Woakes is a better all round cricketer than Tim who was all heart on his sleeve trier but no sorry Woakes is better in my opinion.

[Alvaro]

I am a big Bresnan fan, who pre elbow knack was a strong defensive bowler with a broad blade. Woakes led the attack this summer and until he found his nip was more of a batting AR.

I would have had Bresnan in this squad for his temperament and experience. He was brilliant for Yorkshire last year.

[WalkingWicket37]

I am a big Bresnan fan, who pre elbow knack was a strong defensive bowler with a broad blade. Woakes led the attack this summer and until he found his nip was more of a batting AR.

I would have had Bresnan in this squad for his temperament and experience. He was brilliant for Yorkshire last year.

And he averages about 80 batting at 5 in the championship, so he'd definitely solve the issue with the middle order!

[procricket]

And he averages about 80 batting at 5 in the championship, so he'd definitely solve the issue with the middle order!

Not in India he would'nt

[Felix Tito]

I really don't get this obsession with stats. Unless you're Bradman 99.94 or Murali 800, it's just a nominal thing.

Woakes' stats might look better than Stokes' but Stoke can win matches almost single handedly. Can Woakes say the same? Can Woakes smash 250 in record time? Can Woakes take a match changing 6fer? I know Stokes can...