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Author Topic: Request for assistance: Research into willow  (Read 7522 times)

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swark

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Request for assistance: Research into willow
« on: February 13, 2017, 10:26:11 AM »

Hi all,

A request for help (with a VERY long explanation ...)

I write articles for Cricinfo on the side, on anything that pretty much piques my interest at the time. I recently wrote one regarding the evolution of the cricket bat over the past few hundred years (http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/1080665.html) and this article has garnered more feedback and communication than almost anything else I've done. There was some sections that were unfortunately edited out of this first article, and while I was initially looking to do a simple follow-up to include those parts, it has started to expand into a full research project. This is where I would love to get the input and advice of the members / manufacturers here.

Prior to researching that article, I had never come across the phrase "English willow nurtured in India" before. This prompted me to start thinking about exploring the different types of bat timber. The question I have been left with is:
What is the performance difference between English willow grown in England, versus English willow grown elsewhere (Australia, India, Canada etc) versus Kashmir willow? Is it possible to quantify this difference in any meaningful way? And if so, how do the performance differences relate to the price?

I am in the process of establishing a small research project to try and do some initial comparisons. In the non-cricket world, I am an academic/researcher at an Australian university (although in Medicine / Public Health and not sports science), and have started some preliminary discussions with our Science and Technology gurus in terms of thinking about what testing and measurements (cross-sectional analysis of the wood, acoustic properties, rebound characteristics, 3D video-capture etc) they could do that would be appropriate. That would constitute stage 2 of the testing. 

What I would like to do in stage 1 is to undertake a subjective trial of at least five different bats made out of: Grade 1 English willow, Grade 4 English willow (both grown in England), Australian willow, English willow nurtured in India, and Kashmir. The purpose of this first stage is to gain input from actual end-users on how they perceive each of the bats. I would recruit a group of 20 local first-grade cricketers to trial each of the bats and to then rate each bat on pre-determined criteria (such as feel, performance, acoustics etc) using a five-point Likert scale. The tests would be done in indoor nets with a bowling machine to ensure that all tests are undertaken under similar conditions and with equivalent striking opportunity. The goal is to see whether batsmen can genuinely distinguish between the different bats, and if so, how do they rate the various timbers. This will then guide the second stage of testing.

In order to make this first stage as fair as possible, the starting points are:

- All bats would need to be new at commencement, and broken in in accordance with the manufacturer recommendations.
- It would be a double-blind trial (where neither the experimenter nor participant know which bat is which until after the testing is complete).
- Each bat needs to be the same weight, have the same grip, and approximately the same profile.
- The bats need to be covered entirely, so that the colour and grains of the timber cannot be seen.
- Each batsman would face 10 balls with each bat. Player 1 would start with bat 1, then bat 2, 3,4 and 5. Player 2 would start with bat 2, then 3,4,5 and 1. Player 3 starts with with bat 3, then 4,5,1 and 2. And so on.
- It would be ideal to get the same manufacturer to make all five bats, but this is probably not feasible.

I realise that this research has a number of fairly fundamental flaws that I may not be able to overcome. In particular, there is naturally considerable variation in the performance of grade 1 English willow, so trying to fairly compare between the different types of timber is even more problematic. But, I am still keen to try :)

If you are willing to help me out with this project, can you please let me know either via pm or a message below? A simple response of "I'm in" would suffice. A formal acknowledgement for CustomBats, manufacturers and forum members would naturally be provided.

I am happy to provide a link to my Cricinfo articles and academic research outputs to indicate the genuineness of this proposal (although it won't take a lot of detective work for people to work out who I am if they really care).

CLIFF Notes:

Australian researcher looking for assistance in a research project looking at cricket bat performance. If interested in helping, please put a response below :)



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Vitas Cricket

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2017, 10:31:41 AM »

English willow grown in India/Pakistan is Kashmir willow

The 'nurtured' or 'grown in' elements of the name are a pure marketing ploy

Seniorplayer

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2017, 10:43:34 AM »

Here's my answer
English willow  nurtured abroad is exactly the same GENUS as English willow but the trees are not grown in the UK it is also NOT Kashmir  willow.
Kashmir willow is a very close relation to English willow but is a native of the Kashmir region of Pakistan and India.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 11:32:39 AM by Seniorplayer »
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Buzz

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 11:16:09 AM »

@swark do get in touch with @JK Lewis as his latest willow project might be good material for you.

As others have said, Kashmir willow is the same strand of willow salix alba as used in an English willow bat, but grown in india, hence the phrase nurtured in india. If it is grown in Kashmir then it is Kashmir willow... not sure wjat willow is grown in india outside Kashmir.
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JK Lewis

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2017, 11:25:40 AM »

Sounds like an interesting study, I'd be happy to help if I can. My guess is that to minimise the variables you would need to start at cleft stage. If you had your 5 clefts, you could have them shaped identically using an agreed spec and a CNC machine. The resulting blades would likely have different weights, but would be identical in every other aspect. Personally I think that weight may be the main difference between the various willow types, due to differing rates of drying in different parts of the world.

Then get the same batmaker to handle, press and finish the clefts, again to minimise the variables.

Good test. Best of luck with it!
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AlRidd

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2017, 11:36:48 AM »

Sounds brilliant, I look forward to seeing the results :) if theres a way I can help, i'm in!
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Buzz

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2017, 11:45:47 AM »

Also speak to @The Doctor he may be able to help...
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sachin200

Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2017, 06:57:43 PM »

Here's my answer
English willow  nurtured abroad is exactly the same GENUS as English willow but the trees are not grown in the UK it is also NOT Kashmir  willow.
Kashmir willow is a very close relation to English willow but is a native of the Kashmir region of Pakistan and India.


I agree with this. Kashmir willow and English Willow nurtured in India aren't the same thing. Botanical classification of willow is - everything under genus Salix is called willow and English Willow is Salix alba species under that genus. There are 350-400 species under genus Salix alba and there are 27 known species of willow i.e. Salix
tetrasperma, Salix wallichiana, S. Dephnoides, S. Caesia, S. Denticulate, S. Elegans, S. H
imalaynsi, S. Acmophylla, S. Flabellaris,
S. Fragilis, S. Phenotachya and S. Pseudowallichian
native to Kashmir. White willow or English willow (Salix Alba) was introduced in Kashmir by Mr. Abbey in 1927 and planted in Co.la of Harran range and since then, more saplings of white willow have been introduced there (Ref. http://www.ijraset.com/fileserve.php?FID=5751)

@swark Now, 1) any bat that is made from a willow species that is indigenous to Kashmir, is called as a Kashmir willow bat. 2) The bats made from Salix alba grown in India is called English willow nurtured in India bat and 3) of course the bats made from the Salix alba wood grown in UK are called English willow bats.

Among all the willow woods, white willow has the lowest density and it grows the best in England due to climatic conditions. The same species grown somewhere else is the second best and the other varieties of willow (e.g. Kashmir willow) are generally heavier than the white willow so lower quality bats are made of Kashmir willow.
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swark

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2017, 08:23:37 PM »

Hi all,

Thanks everyone for responding - much appreciated.

A quick comment on Kashmir versus English Willow Nurtured in India (EWNI) which started my interest in this area:

The botanical advice I have been given matches that of Seniorplayer and Sachin200. Kashmir willow bats are often made from Salix Fragilis (ironically name perhaps, in light of the reputation of kashmir bats for breaking easily) which is native to Western Asia and is a type of crack willow. English willow bats come from Salix Alba Caerulea (which is possible a hybrid willow species of white willow and crack willow), irrespective of where they are grown. This was some of the text that was edited out of the first Cricinfo article. The 'Australian' willow bat market, which started back in the early 1900s and has recently had a welcome resurrection, was initially based around Salix Alba Caerulea cuttings sent over by ship by Archie MacLaren. However, there is so much confusion about the differences between these options, I am sure that some unscrupulous bat manufacturers (none on here of course) could be trying to pass off kashmir as EWNI as a marketing ploy. One of the reasons for this project is actually to try and make sense of what is what.

In terms of the wider project:

Some of you have already recognised the logistical issues that we will face in trying to get this off the ground. Making it as 'objective' as possible is the goal, but is going to be difficult. We are not interested in whether bat manufacturer 'A' makes a better bat from grade 1 English willow than manufacturer 'B' - that is often very subjective to the individual end-user. However, I have already encountered some interesting 'feedback' in terms of the potential financial implications of this project - if it shows that batsmen are unable to distinguish EWNI from English willow, will that have an impact on the marketplace? We don't want to impact on any genuine manufacturer's livelihood (scammers not included), but equally, we want to do a fair job of comparing the options.

In terms of a pilot, I already have a couple of bats (bought at my expense as we have no funding for this) from lower grade English willow and EWNI that we are planning to use as a trial run, once we have the broader project parameters worked out.

I will keep thinking, and am very happy to have ongoing thoughts and ideas suggested. I will be sending a pm to a number of respondents over the next day or so.
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Calzehbhoy

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2017, 08:39:04 PM »

Just a suggestion @swark Would rigging a bat to a fixed position and then dropping a ball from a fixed high while calculating how far it bounces up off the bat not be the best controlled experiment you can do? This takes out the uncertainty surrounding batsman and places it purely 100% on the rebound qualities of the willow?
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Vitas Cricket

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2017, 08:48:54 PM »

If it's not grown in England it isn't English Willow.

Subtle differences in the genus may well be present, but the biggest contributor to the properties of willow is its growing conditions, it can't be English willow if it's grown in India, as Indian weather and soil is totally different.

swark

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2017, 08:50:30 PM »

@Calzehbhoy

Absolutely - that has been the protocol that others have used in the past, and would be part of a suite of tests that is planned for stage 2. The idea of stage 1 is to see whether batsmen perceive any difference between the timbers in a blind test, and to then look at the respective rebound qualities (amongst other things) once we have had the participants rate each of the bats. It will be interesting to see if the two match up ...
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swark

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 08:56:33 PM »

@Vitas Cricket

Both agree and disagree  :)

Technically, they are considered the same (as I understand it), with them all being: Genus: Salix. Species: alba. Var. caerulea. However, one of the main reasons for this project is exactly as you note: where they are grown (be it Australia, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand or India) will possibly/probably see differences in the end product. Which is what we want to quantify if possible.

The other big issue is durability - I don't think that we can necessarily test this out in this project. The problem with this variable is that a bat could have better rebound qualities, but have a very short durability and therefore not represent good value for money for the average punter. Something else I am thinking about ...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 07:07:13 AM by swark »
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Seniorplayer

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2017, 09:07:51 PM »

Austrialian willow falls into the same catorgary as English willow nurtured abroad why. Because it has the same genus.
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GoodLeave

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Re: Request for assistance: Research into willow
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2017, 09:37:12 PM »

Interesting topic this. Sounds like someone is finally going to put some unbiased science behind bats and how good they really are.

I feel inspired to set up my own experiments... with Lazers and Dry-Ice and Beakers!

Good luck with it Swark, let me know if you need guinea pigs.
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