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Author Topic: Interesting read  (Read 4014 times)

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Woodyspin

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WalkingWicket37

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2017, 10:51:45 PM »

The kids on here won't have the attention toon span to read all of that!  ;)
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GoldenArm

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 11:15:54 PM »

Cracking read, it is criminal that wicket keeping is so neglected at international level now. Do you think one day a shane warne of stumpers will come along and resurrect a dying art? Or is truly classy keeping just not flashy enough? I always think the very best keepers make it look like they're not doing much at all, and that's perhaps to their detriment that such high levels of skill go unregarded by those not looking very hard. I for one would drop a batsman out of my team for a truly outstanding keeper who couldn't hold a bat the right way up. The number of extra wickets taken and byes saved would be worth the runs lost easily.
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Vitas Cricket

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 11:31:17 PM »

Enjoyed the polite way he called Boon a fatty lol.

I enjoyed almost all of that article. The discussion around the stats is where I glazed over a bit. I firmly believe (as was eluded to) that keeping wicket is an art form that can't be measured by a stats sheet. As a wicket keeper I feel i know a good gloveman when I  see one, it's not something you can put a number on.
Mistakes are few and far between when it comes to proper keepers, judging a keeper based on how many runs his mistakes end up costing might be relevant for the new age of 'batter-keepsmen' but aren't overly important for a pure gloveman.

The post Healy/Russel era hasn't really produced a proper international keeper. Boucher and Prior are maybe as close as we've come but even they werent naturals, they both had to work on glovework in the early years. I like Sanga and AB but both were always extremely reluctant keepers. Gilly, Dhoni, Mccullum, and now Bairstow, QDK, Buttler, and dare I say it Wade were/are all bat first keep later kind of players. Some better than others and all have unique skills of course, I love Dhoni up to the stumps, he's almost too quick, but he's often laughable stood back, especially if the English 'wobble' after going past the bat comes into play. Most of the others I mentioned are superb stood back but patchy stood up which brings me to the point below.

I feel that aside from the recent emergence of Ashwin and the decent Swann-Prior partnership, keeping up to the stumps has been less important as the international game hasn't had a world class spinner since Kumble/Warne/Murali. Why would englands keeper worry about standing up when most of the cricket he plays will be a battery of seam and the odd part time or containing spin bowler? People make an argument for Rashid being an attacking spinner but I can't see him playing much more international cricket, he bowls too much (No Swearing Please) too regularly.
Flat drop ins and ODIs with 2 new balls have contributed to the change in spin bowling which has had a knock on to keeping in my opinion

I agree with where the article was going with specialist coaching. The game has evolved too much for a non batsman to don the gloves in an international, but I definitely think all these guys can work harder at the keeping side, especially given proper help and advice. Boucher and Prior both had very iffy starts with the gloves but put in hard yards to improve. I think it helps that they are both gritty, hard bastards, the kind of blokes you'd want next to you in the trenches.
Dare I say it, are too many modern keepers more interested in the glamour of scoring a hundred rather than the unbeatable feeling of a legside  stumping to remove the oppos best player and flip the game on its head?

FattusCattus

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2017, 10:02:02 AM »

One of the ironies of how blessed England are with all-rounders packing their middle order - Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Woakes, Fattus etc  is that if there was a fantastic keeper who was a weaker batter, in the mould of Foster or Read, now would be an excellent time to pick them.

In these modern times, I'm not sure if such an exotic creature exists in county cricket.
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Seniorplayer

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2017, 10:14:38 AM »

One of the ironies of how blessed England are with all-rounders packing their middle order - Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Woakes, Fattus etc  is that if there was a fantastic keeper who was a weaker batter, in the mould of Foster or Read, now would be an excellent time to pick them.

In these modern times, I'm not sure if such an exotic creature exists in county cricket.

Don't  currently see an Alan Knott or Bob Taylor coming through  county cricket both  these two could take the ball and look as if they weren't moving.
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trypewriter

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2017, 10:33:59 AM »

John Murray, probably the most elegant of them all behind the sticks.
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Seniorplayer

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2017, 11:53:15 AM »

John Murray, probably the most elegant of them all behind the sticks.

Yes John Murray should have remembered him kept for England before Alan Knott
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TownGrazz

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2017, 02:07:58 PM »

One of the ironies of how blessed England are with all-rounders packing their middle order - Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Woakes, Fattus etc  is that if there was a fantastic keeper who was a weaker batter, in the mould of Foster or Read, now would be an excellent time to pick them.

In these modern times, I'm not sure if such an exotic creature exists in county cricket.

Besides the two you mentioned, the next best two based purely on wicketkeeping in my opinion are Ben Foakes (who has been mentioned in the media before as an option) or Ben Cox.
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six and out

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2017, 03:01:16 PM »

Besides the two you mentioned, the next best two based purely on wicketkeeping in my opinion are Ben Foakes (who has been mentioned in the media before as an option) or Ben Cox.

I know Flower rates Foakes keeping very highly (he has kept well on the recent Lions tour to SL) but at the end of the day with both Bairstow and Butler in the side, i really don't see him getting a look in as it is easier to balance a side with one of these guys keeping.

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JK Lewis

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2017, 03:12:09 PM »

Maybe, to achieve the best of all worlds, we need to move to a 'Designated Hitter' type system, with each side selecting a specialist keeper for fielding and a pure hitter coming into the batting line up.
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TownGrazz

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2017, 04:06:46 PM »

I know Flower rates Foakes keeping very highly (he has kept well on the recent Lions tour to SL) but at the end of the day with both Bairstow and Butler in the side, i really don't see him getting a look in as it is easier to balance a side with one of these guys keeping.

Yes you are correct that it is unlikely , in the immediate future anyway, that England would take that option. Purely hypothetical in the event that if England decided to go with option of a better keeper/lesser batsmen due to the plethora of allrounders available to balance the side as mentioned in the earlier post. I feel Bairstow is good enough to justify his place in the test side purely as a batsmen and would be an excellent addition in the field if you did want to bring in a specialist gloveman which would improve standards, particularly in tough conditions such as standing up to spin for long periods in the subcontinent. Perhaps a bit more difficult in one day cricket to justify the inclusion of a purely specialist wicketkeeper and you would opt to use Bairstow or Butler. Foakes in particular is not a mug with the bat anyway and Cox has shown improvements in recent seasons so its not like you you would be bringing in a complete rabbit into the side if you went down that route.
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six and out

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2017, 04:17:46 PM »

Yes you are correct that it is unlikely , in the immediate future anyway, that England would take that option. Purely hypothetical in the event that if England decided to go with option of a better keeper/lesser batsmen due to the plethora of allrounders available to balance the side as mentioned in the earlier post. I feel Bairstow is good enough to justify his place in the test side purely as a batsmen and would be an excellent addition in the field if you did want to bring in a specialist gloveman which would improve standards, particularly in tough conditions such as standing up to spin for long periods in the subcontinent. Perhaps a bit more difficult in one day cricket to justify the inclusion of a purely specialist wicketkeeper and you would opt to use Bairstow or Butler. Foakes in particular is not a mug with the bat anyway and Cox has shown improvements in recent seasons so its not like you you would be bringing in a complete rabbit into the side if you went down that route.

oh believe me i would love to see it happen (i am a keeper myself), the only way i see it happening is if Butler makes no runs at all and Bairstow's wicketkeeping deteriorates very badly - therefore Foakes (or another keeper) replaces Butler and Bairstow keeps his place as purely a batter.

i mean it could happen  ;) ;)
 
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Sam

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2017, 04:25:36 PM »

Saw Lewis McManus take some very good grabs and stumpings last season for Hampshire, with no other regular keeper in the squad he's presumably going to be playing every game across all formats this season so will be interesting to see how he goes. Hopefully doesn't turn into another Bates situation.
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Mtown Don

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Re: Interesting read
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2017, 04:40:10 PM »

Saw Lewis McManus take some very good grabs and stumpings last season for Hampshire, with no other regular keeper in the squad he's presumably going to be playing every game across all formats this season so will be interesting to see how he goes. Hopefully doesn't turn into another Bates situation.
Alsop?
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