Topic: Ashes 2017-18 (Read 407069 times)

Big Mac · « **Reply #2715 on:** January 03, 2018, 10:27:06 AM »

Quote from: Mister Le Chiffre on January 03, 2018, 09:51:53 AM

What a bunch of nonsense. Moeen has twice scored centuries when batting in the top 6, both came on the last tour of India - pitches where there's no pace and no real bounce. If there's any pace and bounce Moeen immediately gets found out. He's scared of the ball.

He's hidden at 8 in home matches because of the Stokes factor.

Moeen is no more than a luxury

You've mentioned Moeen's away stats in a couple of threads now as proof of his ineptitude, Jimmy Anderson took seven years and 24 away tests before his away average dropped below 40.

Luxury player?

Manormanic · « **Reply #2716 on:** January 03, 2018, 10:34:12 AM »

Quote from: Big Mac on January 03, 2018, 10:27:06 AM

You've mentioned Moeen's away stats in a couple of threads now as proof of his ineptitude

I don't think ineptitude is the right word - I would prefer unsuitability. At present, Mo is taking up the all rounders slot in the absence of Stokes - he is supposed to be a frontline spinner who can score runs at seven (six at the start of the series). Is he scoring runs? No. Does he look like ever scoring them? Sadly, No. Wickets? Same.

Big Mac · « **Reply #2717 on:** January 03, 2018, 10:44:38 AM »

Quote from: Manormanic on January 03, 2018, 10:34:12 AM

I don't think ineptitude is the right word - I would prefer unsuitability. At present, Mo is taking up the all rounders slot in the absence of Stokes - he is supposed to be a frontline spinner who can score runs at seven (six at the start of the series). Is he scoring runs? No. Does he look like ever scoring them? Sadly, No. Wickets? Same.

I'm not saying he's not been rubbish on this tour, it's the worst I've ever seen him play. I'm saying that using this tour as proof that he's not a test all-rounder is silly.

Murali averaged what, 75 down under in his career? Yasir Shah averaged 80+ not that long ago. It's a tough place for visiting spinners at the best of times, much less when you're barely fit with a side strain, a torn up spinning finger and your side is getting hammered out of sight.

Now, I don't think he shouldn't have been selected if he wasn't fully fit but that's a different argument from the "Ha, I told you he wasn't any good" from people who only look at things after they've stripped away any and all context.

Manormanic · « **Reply #2718 on:** January 03, 2018, 11:19:03 AM »

Quote from: Big Mac on January 03, 2018, 10:44:38 AM

I'm not saying he's not been rubbish on this tour, it's the worst I've ever seen him play. I'm saying that using this tour as proof that he's not a test all-rounder is silly.

Murali averaged what, 75 down under in his career? Yasir Shah averaged 80+ not that long ago. It's a tough place for visiting spinners at the best of times, much less when you're barely fit with a side strain, a torn up spinning finger and your side is getting hammered out of sight.

Now, I don't think he shouldn't have been selected if he wasn't fully fit but that's a different argument from the "Ha, I told you he wasn't any good" from people who only look at things after they've stripped away any and all context.

I don't think I ever said he was no good, I just said that he has always been a horses for courses selection, someone who fills a happy gap created by our having Stokes and Bairstow. I only have an issue when it is mistakenly thought that he is a test class all rounder - he is not, as he is not good enough to be picked as a specialist bat, or as a specialist bowler.

Big Mac · « **Reply #2719 on:** January 03, 2018, 11:46:36 AM »

Quote from: Manormanic on January 03, 2018, 11:19:03 AM

I don't think I ever said he was no good, I just said that he has always been a horses for courses selection, someone who fills a happy gap created by our having Stokes and Bairstow. I only have an issue when it is mistakenly thought that he is a test class all rounder - he is not, as he is not good enough to be picked as a specialist bat, or as a specialist bowler.

tbf that part wasn't directed at you, more of a general observation. Enough with the Moeen stuff anyway, just gonna go round and round

What is everybody hoping/expecting to see from Crane?

Personally I'm more interested in seeing how Root handles him than how Crane himself does. Spinners, and leggies in particular, need a lot of faith from the captain and you have to let them get smashed a bit before they find their rhythm. I'm not sure that Root is confident enough in his own captaincy to sit back and let Crane go for 15-20 from a couple of overs without taking him off and replacing him with a more senior bowler.

I know that part of the thinking might be trying to protect his confidence but, speaking as a terrible leggie myself, there is nothing worse than getting taken off after a bad over only to watch another boring up and down medium pacer take over from your end. The reason I say that is because that results in a situation where a batsman mis-hits a slog over the short cow corner boundary and then slices one past point for four and instead of feeling confident that the batsmen isn't comfortable your mind goes straight to "Great, the skipper is going to take me off now isn't he?" and the rest of that over ends up being half-hearted dross.

Crane should be allowed the leeway to take 1 for 100 because without that experience, he'll never become the spinner that will take test five-fers in the long run.

Seniorplayer · « **Reply #2720 on:** January 03, 2018, 11:55:46 AM »

Quote from: Big Mac on January 03, 2018, 08:36:39 AM

Moeen has the ability to bat in the top 6 at test cricket but that's not what England have wanted him to be and as a result he's been messed around a little bit because he's so versatile. He's batted at every position from 1-9 in test matches which is kinda ridiculous.

Moeen is a batsman who bowls a bit but not a specialist spinner
He has been tried in the top six and opened and he wasn't a success he also as a problem with the short ball
He's a decent eight test match bat.

northernboy1987 · « **Reply #2721 on:** January 03, 2018, 12:06:53 PM »

Quote from: Big Mac on January 03, 2018, 11:46:36 AM

tbf that part wasn't directed at you, more of a general observation. Enough with the Moeen stuff anyway, just gonna go round and round

What is everybody hoping/expecting to see from Crane?

Personally I'm more interested in seeing how Root handles him than how Crane himself does. Spinners, and leggies in particular, need a lot of faith from the captain and you have to let them get smashed a bit before they find their rhythm. I'm not sure that Root is confident enough in his own captaincy to sit back and let Crane go for 15-20 from a couple of overs without taking him off and replacing him with a more senior bowler.

I know that part of the thinking might be trying to protect his confidence but, speaking as a terrible leggie myself, there is nothing worse than getting taken off after a bad over only to watch another boring up and down medium pacer take over from your end. The reason I say that is because that results in a situation where a batsman mis-hits a slog over the short cow corner boundary and then slices one past point for four and instead of feeling confident that the batsmen isn't comfortable your mind goes straight to "Great, the skipper is going to take me off now isn't he?" and the rest of that over ends up being half-hearted dross.

Crane should be allowed the leeway to take 1 for 100 because without that experience, he'll never become the spinner that will take test five-fers in the long run.

This is what I worry about with Crane, England have to, as you say, let him go for some runs without punishment.

Another thing I worry about with the Crane selection. What happens if he takes a Michelle in this test match and Mo struggles again, then we move on to NZ green seamers? Does Crane get dropped as there is no need for 2 spinners? Does Mo get dropped as the out of form spin option? Does someone like Vince get dropped and Mo bats at 5 (Root and Malan moving up) and only bowls part time?

six and out · « **Reply #2722 on:** January 03, 2018, 12:19:58 PM »

Quote from: northernboy1987 on January 03, 2018, 12:06:53 PM

This is what I worry about with Crane, England have to, as you say, let him go for some runs without punishment.

Another thing I worry about with the Crane selection. What happens if he takes a Michelle in this test match and Mo struggles again, then we move on to NZ green seamers? Does Crane get dropped as there is no need for 2 spinners? Does Mo get dropped as the out of form spin option? Does someone like Vince get dropped and Mo bats at 5 (Root and Malan moving up) and only bowls part time?

Worry about NZ when it comes around! but i do take your point.

Crane is here, he is playing, good luck to the lad.

I personally hope that Anderson and Broad get a couple early on - then Root can throw the ball to Crane knowing he has a few in the bank.

The worse scenario will be Aus are 85/1 and Warner is 50 odd and in playing well - then where does Root go - has he got the nuts to give the ball to Crane to bowl at left handed Warner etc....

Manormanic · « **Reply #2723 on:** January 03, 2018, 12:35:58 PM »

It will be interesting to see whether there are some "rested" players for New Zealand, or whether we go with a full strength side.

Buzz · « **Reply #2724 on:** January 03, 2018, 12:55:09 PM »

Quote from: Manormanic on January 03, 2018, 12:35:58 PM

It will be interesting to see whether there are some "rested" players for New Zealand, or whether we go with a full strength side.

Anything other than a full strength side will lose to the Kiwis and even a full team will struggle.
The Kiwis are a very good side.

ppccopener · « **Reply #2725 on:** January 03, 2018, 01:07:15 PM »

Quote from: northernboy1987 on January 03, 2018, 12:06:53 PM

This is what I worry about with Crane, England have to, as you say, let him go for some runs without punishment.

Another thing I worry about with the Crane selection. What happens if he takes a Michelle in this test match and Mo struggles again, then we move on to NZ green seamers? Does Crane get dropped as there is no need for 2 spinners? Does Mo get dropped as the out of form spin option? Does someone like Vince get dropped and Mo bats at 5 (Root and Malan moving up) and only bowls part time?

Totally agree with this, England need to find a proper spinner. It�s not about the next tour, it�s about some long term planning to win overseas

Root says we are now planning the next ashes trip to win over there, we need to back that up with actions

Whether we can have Mo and another spinner in the same side I�m not sure
But some England players need to start delivering, not just Ali

Manormanic · « **Reply #2726 on:** January 03, 2018, 01:44:43 PM »

Quote from: Big Mac on January 03, 2018, 11:46:36 AM

tbf that part wasn't directed at you, more of a general observation. Enough with the Moeen stuff anyway, just gonna go round and round

What is everybody hoping/expecting to see from Crane?

Well, he's probably the third ormaybe even fourth best leggie in England at present - albeit one more promising than two of the other three - so I would like to see him given a proper chance, with long spells and a decent balance between close catchers and boundary riders. The key thing is he gets a proper experience rather than being shown all the ways he is not yet at the level.

Manormanic · « **Reply #2727 on:** January 03, 2018, 01:46:53 PM »

Quote from: Buzz on January 03, 2018, 12:55:09 PM

Anything other than a full strength side will lose to the Kiwis and even a full team will struggle.
The Kiwis are a very good side.

Not sure I'd stretch to very, but they are certainly decent in their home conditions, and with a superb seam attack.

petehosk · « **Reply #2728 on:** January 03, 2018, 01:58:45 PM »

Quote from: Manormanic on January 03, 2018, 01:46:53 PM

Not sure I'd stretch to very, but they are certainly decent in their home conditions, and with a superb seam attack.

I'd say that some of their batting isn't too bad either!!
Buzz is correct....we don't want to underestimate NZ or they will bite us hard!

northernboy1987 · « **Reply #2729 on:** January 03, 2018, 02:03:50 PM »

Quote from: six and out on January 03, 2018, 12:19:58 PM

Worry about NZ when it comes around! but i do take your point.

Crane is here, he is playing, good luck to the lad.

I personally hope that Anderson and Broad get a couple early on - then Root can throw the ball to Crane knowing he has a few in the bank.

The worse scenario will be Aus are 85/1 and Warner is 50 odd and in playing well - then where does Root go - has he got the nuts to give the ball to Crane to bowl at left handed Warner etc....

I agree, but glad you see my point, it's all very well "investing in a young spinner" but if he's just gonna get dropped after his first test anyways you're not really investing in him are you.

Author Topic: Ashes 2017-18 (Read 407069 times)

Big Mac

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Big Mac

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Manormanic

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Big Mac

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Seniorplayer

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northernboy1987

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six and out

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Manormanic

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Buzz

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ppccopener

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Manormanic

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Manormanic

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petehosk

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northernboy1987

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