England Vs India Test Matches
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Manormanic

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #255 on: August 02, 2018, 07:17:43 AM »

The way we play first class cricket has gone to pot. A batsman can get 15 games including tour matches, but plays all but three before May 20th and after August bank holiday, with the others scattered amongst the hit and giggle. It's not conducive to technique when you are getting on with it before the one with your name on it comes along...
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Seniorplayer

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #256 on: August 02, 2018, 07:23:38 AM »

Playing county cricket at the beginning and end of the cricket season does not produce test players.
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six and out

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #257 on: August 02, 2018, 07:44:46 AM »

The simple fact is that for a number of reasons (lots mentioned by everyone on here) we must accept that we are not a good TEST team.

We are 5th in the rankings and quite possibly going lower as Sri Lanka are 6th and we are definitely going to struggle over there in the winter.
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FattusCattus

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #258 on: August 02, 2018, 08:29:53 AM »

Bairstow (all praise him and make up offerings unto his mightyness) is a superb player, but does seem prone to a succession of brain-farts at crucial moments, often nicking off going hard at one just after another wicket has fallen.

There is a flip side to all this hyper-aggression I suppose.
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edge

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #259 on: August 02, 2018, 08:44:41 AM »

Bairstow (all praise him and make up offerings unto his mightyness) is a superb player, but does seem prone to a succession of brain-farts at crucial moments, often nicking off going hard at one just after another wicket has fallen.

There is a flip side to all this hyper-aggression I suppose.
Which is why he's best suited to batting at 7
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SLA

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #260 on: August 02, 2018, 09:12:19 AM »

The way we play first class cricket has gone to pot. A batsman can get 15 games including tour matches, but plays all but three before May 20th and after August bank holiday, with the others scattered amongst the hit and giggle. It's not conducive to technique when you are getting on with it before the one with your name on it comes along...

The whole system is knackered. We need to think very carefully about whether we should be producing format-specific specialists or all-round cricketers, and how we go about doing this - the pathway players move onto starts early, in the late teens, so do we need to be categorising players at that age into red-ball or white-ball specialists and coaching them accordingly.

As a specific example, for whatever reason England seem to have plenty of young talented white ball batsmen - Buttler, Roy, and Hales being the 3 most obvious - but scarcely anyone with the defensive technique to bat out a session in a test match more often than not. Presumably B, R, H were all being taught white-ball skills as teenagers, and that's why they're so good at it now... but 20 years ago they would have been focusing on red ball skills instead.


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Bats_Entertainment

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #261 on: August 02, 2018, 09:14:51 AM »

Which is why he's best suited to batting at 7

He might be if we could find a decent top five without him.
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rickjames

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #262 on: August 02, 2018, 09:14:59 AM »

Bairstow is wasted at 7, 5/6 is where he should be.

They were saying yesterday that in his career he's been involved in 20 runouts, 4 of them being him.
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edge

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #263 on: August 02, 2018, 09:20:46 AM »

Bairstow is wasted at 7, 5/6 is where he should be.
Averages 29 in the top 5 with 0 tons, 42 at 7 with 3 tons... where's he wasted again? ;)
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SLA

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #264 on: August 02, 2018, 09:32:51 AM »

And yet most on here would call many of our players top class.. world class.. we can’t have it both ways.. we either have half a team of top class or world class test players are we are over rating them and people need to be more honest. Maybe we are to blame ? Maybe we believe the media hype (remember they are paid to hype players up) and then expect too much from players who aren’t quite as good as we are led to believe .. or maybe they are that good and they just cba ?

Who exactly is world class in our team? Root is a decent bat and would get into most England lineups but he isn't good enough to carry the load by himself. Bairstow is a decent counter-attacking keeper-batsman in the Prior/Stewart mold but is batting a place too high. Who else? Cook was past it about 5 years ago and now scores less than 20 more often than not.  All the other batsmen are county standard at best who wouldn't have got a sniff of the England team 20 years ago. Most of our promising young batsmen are being coached into T20 hitters. There are no more Strauss's or Trotts coming through because no-one bats like that anymore, with solid defences and only a handful of attacking shots.

Anderson (especially) and Broad (to a lesser extent) are in the tail-end of long and distinguished careers but as a pair don't actually have stats much better than say, Gough and Caddick. Stokes is massively over-rated and is a complete psycho so can't be much fun to share a dressing room with. The other seamers are all either slow, inaccurate or injury-prone. For a variety of reasons, mainly down to the way we penalise county pitches that turn with fines and points deductions, England produce a decent spinner roughly once every 30 years.

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SLA

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #265 on: August 02, 2018, 09:36:02 AM »

Yes obviously don't obstruct him so much that you would be given out. But if Curran just stands were he is and is strong enough then Ashwin doesn't catch that.

That's a fine line. Given that Roy (? I think it was Roy) was given out in fair more tenuous circumstances for running at a funny angle across the pitch, I don't think the umpires would have much time for Curran "accidentally" dipping his shoulder and blocking Ashwin's way.

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SLA

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #266 on: August 02, 2018, 09:47:44 AM »

There was a stat read out on Sky yesterday during the cricket about England's average first innings score over the past 10 test matches or so. I want to say the average England 1st innings over that period was 288. I doubt we will dominate many test matches with that 1st innings average. We haven't been great in test matches for quite some time now, especially with the bat. Forgetting the players that we actually have in the team there aren't that many players in County cricket knocking down the door saying 'Pick Me!, Pick Me'. Even when we were a very poor test side we had players averaging 50+ in county cricket and bowlers averaging under 25. We are an exceptional one day side but a bang average test side. Chances are we are in for a hard winter in Sri Lanka and also in West Indies. I don't know what the specific answer is, maybe there is so much focus on white ball cricket to the detriment of the first class game. The point I'm trying to make (in a very long winded way) is this is not a sudden decline in how we are batting in test matches. I do think some of our selections have been strange with players with bang average first class records getting picked (I know there are exceptions like Vaughan and Tres) to play in test matches. Let's just hope that the new selection process gets busy very quickly. But players are just one factor, the current structure of domestic cricket needs a serious review (again).


Its a systematic thing. The drop-off in quality is down to a number of causes

1) Up until about 2014, the Lions used to be a conveyor belt of good young cricketers into test cricket. Now they are poorly managed, poorly coached and have stopped producing any decent cricketers whatsoever.
2) From the mid 2000s, young players started dedicating time to learning white ball specific skills. This was time they were no longer focusing on the traditional red ball skills. We're now seeing the result of that now.
3) The domestic schedule is a joke, the CC being played almost entirely in April and September makes it completely unfit for purpose, and as a result the standard has dropped off. We need to do something about this, and fast.
4) There are simply less people playing cricket and have been for a decade. Less young players playing means less talented young players coming through. Eventually, that is going to filter through to the national team. We're now seeing the impact of removing cricket from FTA tv.


The England team were good but inconsistent from the late 90s to the late 2000s, were genuinely consistently excellent for a few years from ~2009 to 2013, but there was a culture of bullying and micromanagement in the dressing room that eventually exploded in acrimony in 2013/14. Since then, and despite having some generally weak oppositions to play, we've been absolutely dog (No Swearing Please).
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rickjames

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #267 on: August 02, 2018, 10:04:18 AM »

Averages 29 in the top 5 with 0 tons, 42 at 7 with 3 tons... where's he wasted again? ;)

And how many times has he played at 5?
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northernboy1987

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #268 on: August 02, 2018, 10:09:19 AM »

And how many times has he played at 5?

That was his 22nd innings at 5 I believe
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northernboy1987

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Re: England Vs India Test Matches
« Reply #269 on: August 02, 2018, 10:10:38 AM »

And how many times has he played at 5?

Averages 42 at 6 as well tbf all the numbers point against him batting at 5
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