England v India series
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AJ2014

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #525 on: August 26, 2021, 10:05:16 PM »

Deliberately bowling No balls is Cheating!
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LEACHY48

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #526 on: August 26, 2021, 10:11:15 PM »

Not sure if we know that the overstepping was deliberate. Also, when did overstepping become a way to intimidate a batsman? Bowling team gets penalized via no ball, so only bowling team's to lose.
As far as bouncer to bowlers, there is no such rule and all teams do it, so don't see issue there either unless Bumrah was only one in whole world to employ it.

Agree on Ind bowling quality (lack of) though. Harmison explained possible reason for this below but not sure how much of it is really the cause.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/video/eng-vs-ind-2021-3rd-test-headingley-steve-harmison-explains-why-it-can-be-tricky-to-bowl-at-he-1274802

Actually bud, there is a rule that a bowler cannot deliberately attempt to intimidate a batsman by bowling short if the batsman is not very good. The umpire must consider the bowling speed and the batters ability  and make a determination as to whether the bowler is attempting to deliberately intimidate or injure.

Given that bumrah only bowled 2 no balls in the entire innings, I suspect bowling 4 in an over wasn’t accidental.
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adb club cricketer

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #527 on: August 26, 2021, 11:20:27 PM »

Bouncers ok, deliberate no balls when bowling bouncers not ok.

Otherwise what to stop some quick pinging a bumper at a tailender from 16 yards aka nets. Or if you take it extremes then something just throwing one at a batsman? One runs not much of a penalty for that 🤷

That's the point. Bumrah didn't overstep and bowl from 16 yards, in which case umpire would have determined it as deliberate and removed him from attack.
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adb club cricketer

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #528 on: August 26, 2021, 11:23:35 PM »

Actually bud, there is a rule that a bowler cannot deliberately attempt to intimidate a batsman by bowling short if the batsman is not very good. The umpire must consider the bowling speed and the batters ability  and make a determination as to whether the bowler is attempting to deliberately intimidate or injure.

Given that bumrah only bowled 2 no balls in the entire innings, I suspect bowling 4 in an over wasn’t accidental.
I don't get the "deliberately attempt to intimidate" part. How do we know the bowling short was to intimidate in this case? Why is it that when Wood bowls a short ball at a tailender, it is to take a wicket by exploiting a weakness but when Bumrah does same, it is to intimidate? Why wasn't it bowling to exploit a weakness in short pitch bowling and take a wicket? What is different here versus all the short balls everyone else bowled against a tailender?

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adb club cricketer

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #529 on: August 26, 2021, 11:40:27 PM »

Actually bud, there is a rule that a bowler cannot deliberately attempt to intimidate a batsman by bowling short if the batsman is not very good.
Would like to see reference for such a rule which takes batsman's skill into account -  can't see how it can be enforceable. If a debutant comes into crease and during first ball (when no one knows what skill the batsman has), how will bowler know the batsman's ability before deciding whether the short ball can be bowled or not? If there is a good batsman but is woefully out of form that short ball could injure him, is bowler allowed to bowl short in that case? Also a batsman can be very good batsman for fuller balls but very bad with short ball that he could get injured with it - is bowler allowed to bowl short in this case? So many cases come into play with such a rule that the rule falls apart.

The umpire must consider the bowling speed and the batters ability  and make a determination as to whether the bowler is attempting to deliberately intimidate or injure.
It we are all sure it was deliberate, why didn't the umpire make a determination that it was deliberate in this case? Surely they have all the 360 degrees cameras and replays that they can use to find out if they wanted to.


Given that Bumrah only bowled 2 no balls in the entire innings, I suspect bowling 4 in an over wasn�t accidental.
Maybe it was deliberate. Maybe the heat of the moment could have caused it. Maybe trying to bowl too fast could have caused it.  Thing is we don't know for sure to conclude it is deliberate and umpire didn't deem it deliberate either.
Also there is no stat that says one would spread out the no balls evenly throughout the game.

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golders

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #530 on: August 27, 2021, 05:42:33 AM »

Would like to see reference for such a rule which takes batsman's skill into account -  can't see how it can be enforceable. If a debutant comes into crease and during first ball (when no one knows what skill the batsman has), how will bowler know the batsman's ability before deciding whether the short ball can be bowled or not? If there is a good batsman but is woefully out of form that short ball could injure him, is bowler allowed to bowl short in that case? Also a batsman can be very good batsman for fuller balls but very bad with short ball that he could get injured with it - is bowler allowed to bowl short in this case? So many cases come into play with such a rule that the rule falls apart.
It we are all sure it was deliberate, why didn't the umpire make a determination that it was deliberate in this case? Surely they have all the 360 degrees cameras and replays that they can use to find out if they wanted to.

Maybe it was deliberate. Maybe the heat of the moment could have caused it. Maybe trying to bowl too fast could have caused it.  Thing is we don't know for sure to conclude it is deliberate and umpire didn't deem it deliberate either.
Also there is no stat that says one would spread out the no balls evenly throughout the game.

41.6 Bowling of dangerous and unfair short pitched deliveries

https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/unfair-play
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ProCricketer1982

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #531 on: August 27, 2021, 07:14:24 AM »

You're a test match player.. deal with short pitched balls.. If you can't,  then you'll get hit. If we keep going down the dumbing down of the game like white ball has then the skill levels will keep dropping as players will not need to be able to deal with the different situations/balls etc
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Kulli

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #532 on: August 27, 2021, 07:28:21 AM »

That's the point. Bumrah didn't overstep and bowl from 16 yards, in which case umpire would have determined it as deliberate and removed him from attack.

One of them wasn’t far away!
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potzy248

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #533 on: August 27, 2021, 10:21:40 AM »

You're a test match player.. deal with short pitched balls.. If you can't,  then you'll get hit. If we keep going down the dumbing down of the game like white ball has then the skill levels will keep dropping as players will not need to be able to deal with the different situations/balls etc

Agreed
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mo_town

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #534 on: August 27, 2021, 10:47:05 AM »

You're a test match player.. deal with short pitched balls.. If you can't,  then you'll get hit. If we keep going down the dumbing down of the game like white ball has then the skill levels will keep dropping as players will not need to be able to deal with the different situations/balls etc

Well said.
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SouthpawMark

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #535 on: August 27, 2021, 12:00:45 PM »

Great catch from YJB! What a fine test cricketer he is.
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AJ2014

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #536 on: August 27, 2021, 12:36:21 PM »

What a magnificent catch, JB!
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adb club cricketer

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #537 on: August 27, 2021, 01:12:02 PM »

41.6 Bowling of dangerous and unfair short pitched deliveries

https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/unfair-play

Thanks for the link, copying the relevant part here for easy reference:
Quote
41.6.1 The bowling of short pitched deliveries is dangerous if the bowler’s end umpire considers that, taking into consideration the skill of the striker, by their speed, length, height and direction they are likely to inflict physical injury on him/her.  The fact that the striker is wearing protective equipment shall be disregarded.

Now I am wondering if this has ever been invoked when tailenders have been injured to short pitched bowling. One extreme case I can think of was when Broad got hit on the face and ended up with broken nose. Was bowler no balled then?  Also does umpire inform the bowler beforehand about skill of batter so bowler could decide if short ball could be bowled or not, as bowler could argue he/she is unaware of batters skill.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 01:17:06 PM by adb club cricketer »
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Jimbo

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #538 on: August 27, 2021, 01:28:47 PM »

You'd imagine if a bowler was repeatedly hitting a tailender in the helmet or around the head and the batsman was getting absolutely nowhere near it there might be cause to remind the bowler of the rule.
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adb club cricketer

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Re: England v India series
« Reply #539 on: August 27, 2021, 01:33:59 PM »

You'd imagine if a bowler was repeatedly hitting a tailender in the helmet or around the head and the batsman was getting absolutely nowhere near it there might be cause to remind the bowler of the rule.

Makes sense. Has any umpire ever given such a reminder to bowler in intl cricket?
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