Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
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stamper

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #150 on: January 12, 2022, 10:50:35 AM »
Quote from: Jimbo on January 12, 2022, 08:09:27 AM
I think there are quite a few who want Yorkshire to actually reform their club and the wider attitude within their county cricket structure. Don't forget that this all happened because they allowed discrimination and bullying to become acceptable.


Important to recognise that it was individual people at the club that made it institutionally racist.  Not the club itself. Get rid of those people, and punish them further if possible, but don't punish the club.  Instead, as I wrote earlier, get people in who want to make the club a paragon of inclusivity, with the best getting to represent the first team regardless of race. 
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Jimbo

Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #151 on: January 12, 2022, 11:45:55 AM »
Quote from: stamper on January 12, 2022, 10:50:35 AM

Important to recognise that it was individual people at the club that made it institutionally racist.  Not the club itself. Get rid of those people, and punish them further if possible, but don't punish the club.  Instead, as I wrote earlier, get people in who want to make the club a paragon of inclusivity, with the best getting to represent the first team regardless of race.

Well no, that's not what institutional racism is. Rafiq has made a point of saying, correctly IMO, it's not about hounding individuals but about changing the entire culture. It very much was "the club itself", ie the institution.

To be clear, that is not saying that everyone at Yorkshire or their fans is/was racist, but Yorkshire CCC had an institutional problem with discrimination and bullying.

Now you could, probably fairly, say that senior individuals are responsible for developing the culture of an institution, but you don't end up with widespread and accepted discrimination and bullying if you don't have a wider problem beyond your senior management.

To be honest, you've actually outlined in your post why its cultural and institutional change that is needed rather than just new individuals in senior roles - "make the club a paragon of inclusivity". That's not achieved by sacking your Chairman and bringing in a nicer bloke, but by overhauling the whole culture of the club.
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stamper

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #152 on: January 12, 2022, 01:18:07 PM »
Quote from: Jimbo on January 12, 2022, 11:45:55 AM
Well no, that's not what institutional racism is. Rafiq has made a point of saying, correctly IMO, it's not about hounding individuals but about changing the entire culture. It very much was "the club itself", ie the institution.

To be clear, that is not saying that everyone at Yorkshire or their fans is/was racist, but Yorkshire CCC had an institutional problem with discrimination and bullying.

Now you could, probably fairly, say that senior individuals are responsible for developing the culture of an institution, but you don't end up with widespread and accepted discrimination and bullying if you don't have a wider problem beyond your senior management.

To be honest, you've actually outlined in your post why its cultural and institutional change that is needed rather than just new individuals in senior roles - "make the club a paragon of inclusivity". That's not achieved by sacking your Chairman and bringing in a nicer bloke, but by overhauling the whole culture of the club.


I think you're wrong. 


"It was the club itself"? Was the wooden clubhouse racist or bullying?  Were the concrete stands racist or bullying? Were the rollers and super soppers racist or bullying?  No.  It was some of the people who were directors or employees of the club.  Ergo get rid of those people, get in people who are not racist or bullying.


My additional point was that I feel a great strategy for these people to follow would to be for the club to be an exemplar rather than open the club to further punishment.  Which would achieve nothing.
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Jimbo

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #153 on: January 12, 2022, 03:08:01 PM »
Quote from: stamper on January 12, 2022, 01:18:07 PM

I think you're wrong.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Quote
"It was the club itself"? Was the wooden clubhouse racist or bullying?  Were the concrete stands racist or bullying? Were the rollers and super soppers racist or bullying?  No.

Ridiculous, facetious comment and I suspect you know exactly what I meant, that it is the organisation as a whole that has a problem and not just a few individuals. By your logic (that 'the club' means the physical infrastructure) then they would cease to be YCCC if they moved ground.

Quote
My additional point was that I feel a great strategy for these people to follow would to be for the club to be an exemplar rather than open the club to further punishment.  Which would achieve nothing.

This I generally agree with.

I don't think that Yorkshire's issues will be solved by relegating them, fining the club further, etc. Mandating certain initiatives (for example unconscious bias training for senior figures) wouldn't IMO be punishment but it would go some way to addressing the relevant issues.

Whether they deserve further punishment as a club (points deductions, etc) is a separate question, but I'm not sure that it is really the important issue here.
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stamper

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #154 on: January 12, 2022, 06:26:11 PM »
Quote from: Jimbo on January 12, 2022, 03:08:01 PM
You're entitled to your opinion.

Ridiculous, facetious comment and I suspect you know exactly what I meant, that it is the organisation as a whole that has a problem and not just a few individuals. By your logic (that 'the club' means the physical infrastructure) then they would cease to be YCCC if they moved ground.



I get a certain impression from this chain.  And I really can't be bothered to argue the point any further.  So I'll just simply say I disagree and leave it there.
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123*

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #155 on: January 12, 2022, 07:32:16 PM »
Quote from: stamper on January 12, 2022, 01:18:07 PM

I think you're wrong. 


"It was the club itself"? Was the wooden clubhouse racist or bullying?  Were the concrete stands racist or bullying? Were the rollers and super soppers racist or bullying?  No.  It was some of the people who were directors or employees of the club.  Ergo get rid of those people, get in people who are not racist or bullying.


My additional point was that I feel a great strategy for these people to follow would to be for the club to be an exemplar rather than open the club to further punishment.  Which would achieve nothing.

Wow. Just wow. You aren’t currently employed by Yorkshire CCC by any chance are you?
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Duck Duck Mongoose

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #156 on: January 12, 2022, 10:44:08 PM »
Quote from: stamper on January 12, 2022, 10:50:35 AM

Important to recognise that it was individual people at the club that made it institutionally racist.  Not the club itself. Get rid of those people, and punish them further if possible, but don't punish the club.  Instead, as I wrote earlier, get people in who want to make the club a paragon of inclusivity, with the best getting to represent the first team regardless of race.

This is a completely incorrect understanding of institutional racism. Jimbo is being far too generous when he says you are entitled to your opinion because this is not something we can agree to disagree on, your denial of the existence of institutional racism is just simply wrong.
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SD

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #157 on: January 13, 2022, 01:04:19 AM »
 The DCMS report is due to be published on Friday which is unlikely to make comfortable reading for the Club
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billyb

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #158 on: January 13, 2022, 02:47:18 AM »
Quote from: Duck Duck Mongoose on January 12, 2022, 10:44:08 PM
This is a completely incorrect understanding of institutional racism. Jimbo is being far too generous when he says you are entitled to your opinion because this is not something we can agree to disagree on, your denial of the existence of institutional racism is just simply wrong.

Seconded.
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ppccopener

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #159 on: January 13, 2022, 08:42:13 AM »
Quote from: SD on January 13, 2022, 01:04:19 AM
The DCMS report is due to be published on Friday which is unlikely to make comfortable reading for the Club

It’s going to take time to get rid of the issues there it cannot be done short term.

I’m just not convinced myself further punishment in the form of points fines are the way to go-clearly others on here have a different view.

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ch1p

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #160 on: January 13, 2022, 08:58:17 AM »
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joeljonno

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #161 on: January 14, 2022, 08:39:30 AM »
The aspects to the "institutional racism" as, whilst you say that the "club" as it is purely bricks, mortar, etc. it is the people, the policies, how individuals behave and are expected to behave.

The fact that they would allow such recognised behaviour meant they either didn't have the correct policies and processes in place, or that the reporting of such behaviours were not able to happen as they were not dealt with appropriately and the systems in place did not do anything to stop this.

I do believe this is more wide-spread than just Yorkshire, and it does go back a long way, not that this is an excuse but I just do not believe the club has moved with the times.   

To try to explain the "it's not bricks and mortar" bit, if there is a massive oil spill in the pacific ocean while BP are transporting this across the world, the news would be "Large BP Oil Spill", it wouldn't be "Dave the Sailor Spills Oil".  It is the responsibility of the company to make sure the right things are done at the right time.



 
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golders

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #162 on: January 14, 2022, 11:58:18 AM »
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Butterfingerz

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #163 on: January 19, 2022, 11:30:15 AM »
So YCCC have announced Ottis Gibson as new head coach, personally I think this is a great appointment.
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Richie

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Re: Azeem Rafiq and Yorkshire CCC
« Reply #164 on: January 19, 2022, 11:34:24 AM »
I agree completely, and also slightly disappointed England didn’t get there first!
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