Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: procricket on September 05, 2011, 08:27:04 PM
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After buying around 10 to 15 bats this season (yes i'm no hosk i hate bats sitting around)
I have come to a theory most if not all bats are roughly the same...
Bar the top Top bats there not much difference from one brand to another or maker..
Most Pro players use the same quality bats most of us use only the very best get the very best for sure.
So to that end my bat quest has ended and if i honest i have been not that impressed.
I would say 90 to 95 per cent of all bats have the same playability in the average club cricketers hands.
Only thing i advice when picking a bat is pick up and balance nothing else stickers or what modle it is either..
Happy hunting :D
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To an extent I agree. Best bat I've ever used performance wise was my Ayrtek, but more than happy with my Boom Boom I have now which feels better but without getting onto the 'feel or performance' debate all bats are pretty much the same except slight differences.
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agree Joe i have used bats worth 400 pound bats worth 50 pound and a bat used by a pro and a bat made by a novice and all went well and if i was to close my eyes i would not have been able to.
The top pro's get better bats the rest the same as me and you and as you said the onlt difference is the shape people prefer and profile
the wood quality is negligent between grade 1 and 3 and the cost at source is very similar but the cost at the end for a few streight grains is a giant mark up..
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Started a similar thread a couple if months back dave. Agree with you!
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i would have agreed with this until i got my hands on a M&H Distinction ..... unreal bat, the ball just flies off it like no other bat i have used (i have had th e pleasure of using a Jayasuriya Laver & Wood, Chanderpaul GN, Martin Love GN).
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...except some bats (and this is regardless of monetary value) are absolute planks!!!!
Bought a top end bat 5-6 years ago - picked up beautifully, and felt wonderful in the hands, but was rubbish!
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I do agree with you Dave
But the big question is... What bat are you currently using?
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And Johnny that is the 10 per cent fudge factor of great and piss poor planks.
What bat well i think you know the anwser
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i have a blank ss limited edition, an absolute plank ......... will nerver buy an indian bat again
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I too have a limited edition SS
better than my Laver well one of them..
And here lies my point
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I too have a limited edition SS
better than my Laver well one of them..
And here lies my point
And what MR Garrett do you class as a indian bat
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its just the luck of the draw.
I recently sold on a kahuna 1000 which i thought wasnt great either.
A few years back i had a Bellingham and Smith fireblade, it was a shocker of a bat until all of a sudden after about 2 years it became an absolute beauty.
I think that buying a more expensive bat does give you better odds of not getting a plank though.
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Should the boutique brands be getting out a more constistently good product copmared to the mass produced ones?
Are you more likely to get a dud SS then a dud Laver, as Laver is basically a one man band with a more personal (and better?) check on quality?
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And what MR Garrett do you class as a indian bat
anything made in india .......... SS, MRF, BAS, Slazenger .... or with that big edge, big bow profile.
I prefer the english made bats, (newberry, M&H, Salix) but i usually go for the lesser known brands or freebies :)
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Should the boutique brands be getting out a more constistently good product copmared to the mass produced ones?
Are you more likely to get a dud SS then a dud Laver, as Laver is basically a one man band with a more personal (and better?) check on quality?
my thoughts are that you get a better bat from the boutique brands, not massed produced and over pressed so they last forever
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I disagree 100 per cent i think the cost of a bat has nothing to do with the quality of the thing or improves your chances of a belter either
Johnny you could say that more amount of clefts you buy the better quality your going to get...
Just a though
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i was probably wrong to say more expensive, but the better GRADE you are more likely to get a better performance
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On the other hand are the very best ss's better than the best boutique brands as they get more clefts, it's something I now wonder. For instance CA would have 1000's of clefts to choose there top stuff from where as a Salix or a saf bats may only have 20-50 to choose there best stuff from
Hope that makes sense
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Interesting i have never herd anybody ever say Sareen Sport over press..
I would like to ask though if you can only buy different grades of willow why do so many of the boutique brands only do grade 1
But different people grade by different things
Lets get one thing right there has never been a coalition between grains and performance
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I favour no brand by the way just i think the Canners hit the nail on the head surely your biggest customers get the best or a fair more percentage of the best...
And were does all the grade 2 or 3 stuff go as i know you can not just ring up Wrights and say grade 1 please
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Stickers make the biggest difference in the perception of how good a bat is.
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Tom in your eyes as a former big wig and i know you have done reaserch and what not is there a big difference in bats
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i was probably wrong to say more expensive, but the better GRADE you are more likely to get a better performance
I'd disagree with that. There is nothing to say a pig ugly cleft cannot perform as well as a beautiful G1.
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Stickers make the biggest difference in the perception of how good a bat is.
And price. As we know, the more we spend on a bat, the better it will be ;)
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evening Jon
Glad you back on last night for me for a while bud
I know it is rich coming from me this topic but my reaserch is done
Jon we both know your last post is not true
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in the end it the batsmen that makes a bat appear good or bad
I've seen some people use my old bat and say it is a plank, i use it and it goes like a rocket ........... all about timing i suppose
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I've always thought it's like choosing a good wine. You can't just buy by price. You can't just buy by name. Each bat is different and to find out whether or not it's good/bad or whether or not it's for you....you just have to use it!
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I think a handmade gives you a better chance of having a half decent bat rather than a mass produced hard pressed which is finished by hand... probably.... however, i'm losing count of handmade boutique batmakers now and where does all the G2/3 willow go? Willow grading seems very inconsistent..
I have a Salix Rogue which has blemishes on the edges but I hear their wood grading is the most stringent and although only tried once in nets so far feels fantastic on hitting cricket balls/bowling machine balls.. only time will tell whether I can do it justice on the field...next season...
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evening Jon
Glad you back on last night for me for a while bud
I know it is rich coming from me this topic but my reaserch is done
Jon we both know your last post is not true
Hence the smiley :)
Hope it all goes well mate.
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But there are some batmakers out there who grade bats purely on performance rather than cosmetics and hence price accordingly.
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Tom in your eyes as a former big wig and i know you have done reaserch and what not is there a big difference in bats
There's (No Swearing Please) bats in all price brackets. Some bats just don't turn out very good. You can spend £300 on a the best reviewed bat from a reputable retailer, and it can be a plank.
Every company wants to make the best performing bat they can, whilst retaining a unique marketing aspect to sell as many as possible. There isn't a huge difference between a top GM, GN, Mongoose or anything in my view. The finish on one may be better, the stickers may be better on another but beyond that there's not much.
As for pro bats - I never really saw one bat on the circuit which made me go wow. This is a special piece of willow.
My advice is always the same, go to a shop, choose a bat which you like the pickup and feel of. Knock a ball on a few. Some of you may also have a batmaker who you trust, therefore negating the need to visit a shop. I'm in that boat, I trust TK and Sareen to make my bats.
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So my question is why do the smaller maker do with all there grade 2 or 3 bats then.
And if that is the case why do we not see some big stained bats as grade 1
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So my question is why do the smaller maker do with all there grade 2 or 3 bats then.
And if that is the case why do we not see some big stained bats as grade 1
Lots of the smaller makers don't buy direct through the merchants.
FYI, G1/2/3 are all classed as 'Top Grade' by Wrights. There's 19 grades below G3.
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I understand that hence a certain forum members prominance (and no this is not a bashing thread)
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For next season i going to only buy English handmade bats to finish my education in bats.
For me i have seen 3 bats this season stand out
A Hell4Leather and 2 Lower grase Gray Nichs.
I used the Instince that was not three bad the Indian brigade was a mixed bag some outstainding some just average.
Only used two planks this year both from Pakistan and the other Mg2 off a kiwi over here and that was Indian made in my eyes
The lavers i have used been a mixed bag to be honest some good some not so...
My old laver is still up there so is the MB Malik
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But there are some batmakers out there who grade bats purely on performance rather than cosmetics and hence price accordingly.
Yes, correct. This has been discussed to death on here before now so no need to go over old ground. However from experience, the following can be used as a rough guide.
1. Pretty doesn't guarantee good performance.
2. Ugly doesn't guarantee bad performance.
3. Price doesn't correlate to performance, however the more you spend, the less likely you are to get a dud as more time will be taken in both manufacture and QC. That said, there is nothing to stop a £50 bat outperforming a much more expensive one.
4. Grading cannot be taken to mean anything, as every batmaker grades differently.
5. Asian made bats can be every bit as good as English made ones, but refer to point 3.
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There must be some quality bats that look stunning with perfect grains and some poor sod has paid top dollar for it but if it is under or over pressed then its optimum performance would be wasted... but how many people would ADMIT to feeling what the hell did I pay top dollar and there is no difference in the performance?
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Bloody hell Jon
I am starting to warm to you
PM7 i have a bat here going back that falls into that statement
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There must be some quality bats that look stunning with perfect grains and some poor sod has paid top dollar for it but if it is under or over pressed then its optimum performance would be wasted... but how many people would ADMIT to feeling what the hell did I pay top dollar and there is no difference in the performance?
Exactly, which is why you see blanket statements about 'cheap bat x was (No Swearing Please)' 'my new £300 is brill' etc etc.
Paying more to have a bat custom made is a nice experience but it really is a luxury option when 99/100 of us would feel no difference using something mass produced, as long as the bat suited us.
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I posted a link on my thread about my new redback from a willow merchant saying that the willow grades don't necessarily indicate performance.
My redback paradox is only the premium version but seems great so far. I also have a 15 year old slazenger v12 super that was cheap at the time but has a brilliant middle (I still use it as my net bat). Having said all that when I was younger a club pro got me a slaz v100 that was superb but not that much better than any of my other bats.
Personally I'd never pay hundreds for a bat simply as you can get a bad one. From reading all the comments on here I'll definitely stick to smaller brands like redback, h4l, etc as they do seem to consistently deliver good quality bats.
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Im pretty sure if someone actually sifted through the millions of posts you would struggle to find someone who paid £300 plus for a top GN or GM and admitted with a straight face that they have been (No Swearing Please).
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Im pretty sure if someone actually sifted through the millions of posts you would struggle to find someone who paid £300 plus for a top GN or GM and admitted with a straight face that they have been (No Swearing Please).
But you would find a hell of a lot of posts singing the praises of the latest top dollar bat, only to see them come up for sale pretty quickly...
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got to say im the exception i do not sell my best bats bar the odd one that is too heavy...
I have had some great bats and some not so great i currently using a broke bat that is 4 years old now but still going well
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Equally, many of us will not pay more than £200 for a bat because it doesn't make enough difference in our hands, and the bats that I currently have I will be keeping...
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coverage over quality of middle people
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There must be quite a few people paying the full whack for these (alledgedly) top end bats as GN,GM and Kook havent decreased their prices. Its always about finding the happy medium when it comes to buying a bat and the £120-160 mark suits nicely for me.
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We all know pressing is the key for performance. If a batmaker / company starting selling bats with a 30 day guarantee as opposed to the usual 12 months . . . .but pressed to perform and not last . . .would you buy it. . ??
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There must be quite a few people paying the full whack for these (alledgedly) top end bats as GN,GM and Kook havent decreased their prices. Its always about finding the happy medium when it comes to buying a bat and the £120-160 mark suits nicely for me.
Most I've spent on a bat is £150 and I (hope) I've not done too badly.
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Good shout but are we now saying a bat does not last as long because it is better pressed or are we talking something else ie overdrying clefts or are we talking the million adn one low density clefts that there seems to be a ever lasting amount of
I
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Bats My Theory,
In general terms you pay for what you get.
Majority of company's top grade bats perform equally, just the branding/popularity of the product alters the price
You will get the bats that are grade 2/3/4 or whatever and will perform phenomenally
95% of the reviews of bats reported on here are (No Swearing Please) nonsense. A bat review should consist of extensive net and match use, not i hit it with a mallet and its a gun, and as previously mentioned its then up for sale 2 weeks later.
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i think too many people jump ship too early with new bats . . . .they must give them chance to mature. . .
i look for bats with surface cracks to buy . . .. the average joe public thinks they are knackered. . . . i know they are ripe. . . .
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I have always though that bats for sale in the majority are planks or why sell???
Only ever sold 2 very good bats in my time the rest were average
I only keep ones i will use
The surface crack thing is not entirely true.
Remember a good bat with a good crust is key
A bat is like a pie in my eyes
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i think too many people jump ship too early with new bats . . . .they must give them chance to mature. . .
i look for bats with surface cracks to buy . . .. the average joe public thinks they are knackered. . . . i know they are ripe. . . .
My baby has cracks :o
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Some very valid points mentioned in the post above by Procricket, Jon and PM7 regarding primarily the rebound performance of the bat. I like to think of the overall performance being a combination of 3 factors:
1) How good the middle is? - this point has been debated well above and I think Jon's 5 points are spot on
2) How frequently you find the middle? - this has a lot to do with the batsman's awareness of his own game and consequently what deadweight and "pendulum" swing is best suited for you.
3) How forgiving the off-middle areas are? In other words the consistency and uniformity of the rebound over a larger area whether that rebound was great or average.
Looking back at my own bat buying experiments, I would say that the key difference between the best bats I had and the worst was on 2) and 3). And grade, grains, price etc. had little to do with it. THe best 4 bats I have ever had are a medium range SS, MB Sher, Screaming Cat and M&H Distinction. That'll give you a pretty awful correlation chart !
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humm, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
my £50 jjb kook is awesome!
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2 thnigs in my eye make a bt
pick up
and the coverage as you say the 3 -5 inches above and below the middle
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to be honest i have not had a bat that does not have a middle yet???
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humm, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
my £50 jjb kook is awesome!
I'm still in shock at buying mine buzz. Going to properly knock it in and leave it till next season. Can't wait!
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Cricket is very much a mental game, after a few poor scores the best bat in the world is now suddenly a plank.
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2 thnigs in my eye make a bt
pick up
and the coverage as you say the 3 -5 inches above and below the middle
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to be honest i have not had a bat that does not have a middle yet???
I've found one dave. You can have a go with it if you like!
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You have yet to purchase a bat from me Dave ..... (you may have already classed my bats miles above the rest in the derby) :)
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Good topic - one that was on my mind recently as I kitted myself out...
To compare small-time workman brands to the multinational giants is unfair. Their business models are completely different, as will their standard of product. To pick a bat at random from both types of brands top production line, I'd choose a smaller (though with the premise of having a good reputation) guy every time.
Of the core features a Giant uses to sell their product, everyman* looks (they need their product to appeal to the broadest number of people - leading to the IMO horrific bat designs of the current era!), hype (short term buzz around the product), and a significant factor is professional player useage (and will only get bigger IMO - the Nikefying of the industry). The quality of the performance of the wood is secondary to all of these IMO to the success of Gray&Mooreburra PLC. That's not to say there are not decent sticks amongst the range on sale though they will, by nature, have a higher 'defect' rate. Their core profit center is lower down the food (grade) chain and I'd assume their bats around the Grade 3/4 range are perhaps their most consistent.
A smaller operator has but a few marketing tools - reputation, perhaps a review in the Wisden end-of-year show, but most of all, the one thing that they hang their hat on and genuinely makes them or breaks them, is the quality of the end product. They can't afford the sponsorship Gray Nicholls/Addidas will offer, and run a lean-enough production line that the spurious and intangible extras that the big brands can afford are lost on them. The beauty of their business dictates that it doesn't need teams of analysts to go over reams of data to churn out maximum output. Only x-amount of bats are needed per season, and a higher proportion of these need to be perfect or the outcome could be disastrous. To the consumer, it's pretty much the perfect business model. If you know your stuff ;). I'd even go as far as to say we should be inherently grateful these guys exist (no, I don't work for one of them!), the impact they have on creating innovation and raising standards within the industry should never be underestimated.
(The range of bats used by pro's is ignored at this point - we can assume they have teams of people hand picking/crafting them and of a scarcity that very few in the amateur arena would even consider. They have nothing to do with the quality of the bats available for public selection, even, I'd suggest, the Grade 1 LE stuff)
It's not too dissimilar to the fashion industry. The obscene amounts spent on marketing (fashion shows, free Haute Couture frocks, 250k ad's on the back cover of Vogue) all to sell perfumes, watches, sunglasses, plain logo'd t-shirts and other items that have little 'technical performance' and are all about the marketed value of the label. Basically, would you rather wear an Armani watch (a re-badged Sekonda at best) or a Rolex (ok, not exactly a small firm, but at least made by watch-makers)? If I want a £40 set of trainers to walk down the street in, I'll look at Nike or Addidas, and the same guys are big in the park-running crowd...Though how many Marathon runners do you see wearing them?
I'm not a great cricketer, though I do perform better when I have 'good' gear. It inspires security and confidence that go far and above the tangible impact of having a bat that 'flies'. I know I'm paying a huge premium for a very minor improvement in my performance in my game, though I play to enjoy myself, and if I enjoy myself more when I have nice gear. Perhaps it's not the most un-shallow admittance, but hey, it makes me feel good when I walk up to the crease, silly mid on becomes just 'mid' on, Square leg trots back a few yards and I know anything I get on the next delivery will make runs just as long as Boris (for that is his name :) ) makes contact.
(I have a 2oz11 M&H Distinction - it's a grain lovers wet dream (23 top to bottom) and every time I hit it, it just has this obscene trampoline effect that I know won't last forever, but actually makes me feel like I'm using an illegal bat. There is no other description for it!)
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Dan, interesting set of observations, although I have to pull you up on the running shoes observation. A significant number of both professional track and field/distance and amateur distance (marathon) runners actually do run in Nike and Adidas shoes as they make very effective (expensive) running shoes (for both it is more or less where they started!).
The difference is that the way they are marketed (compared to cricket kit) is much more in line with your fashion example, so only those who are really interested know about the properly performing products that are at the top end of the ranges.
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only word I can take from the op is " reputation " , that is key.
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Great post Dan. Please post more often!
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Great post Dan. Please post more often!
like
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I've had loads of top of the range bats, most were just about the same, good decent bats better than your usual stuff you get down at the local club apart from my most expensive GM Hero Original LE which cost me 235 quid I couldn't wait to use it, it was like a wand, picked up a dream and looked like a gun however it was terrible, went like a total plank in the end people at the club wouldn't even take it off me for free! On the flip side the best bat I ever owned is a 100 quid Newbery that has 6 wonky grains and has a few blemishes, now I know that this is one case but always pick your own bat instead of going on the internet, just becuase it looks unreal doesn't mean it is!
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/doogle_photos/Picture001.jpg)
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/doogle_photos/Picture006.jpg)
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I've had loads of top of the range bats, most were just about the same, good decent bats better than your usual stuff you get down at the local club apart from my most expensive GM Hero Original LE which cost me 235 quid I couldn't wait to use it, it was like a wand, picked up a dream and looked like a gun however it was terrible, went like a total plank in the end people at the club wouldn't even take it off me for free! On the flip side the best bat I ever owned is a 100 quid Newbery that has 6 wonky grains and has a few blemishes, now I know that this is one case but always pick your own bat instead of going on the internet, just becuase it looks unreal doesn't mean it is!
Eeerry... My bad experience was with virtually an identical bat! Mine was on Original as opposed to an Original LE - felt beautiful to pick, but was absolutely terrible.
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Eeerry... My bad experience was with virtually an identical bat! Mine was on Original as opposed to an Original LE - felt beautiful to pick, but was absolutely terrible.
To prove the point I have a GM Hero 808 and its the best bat that I have ever had. The pick up is fantastic and it goes like a good un....
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Dan W, I think it's a little more complicated than that. A number of boutique brands (inc one you've name checked) buy part made bats from the UK's 2nd largest bat manufacturer and just sand/finish them. Now whilst the finish may be better on them, is the pressing and shape going to be any better than the Puma bats made in the same factory?
For aftercare I agree you can't beat a small brand, who's reputation is everything. But the final product, is it that different?
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Dan W, I think it's a little more complicated than that. A number of boutique brands (inc one you've name checked) buy part made bats from the UK's 2nd largest bat manufacturer and just sand/finish them. Now whilst the finish may be better on them, is the pressing and shape going to be any better than the Puma bats made in the same factory?
For aftercare I agree you can't beat a small brand, who's reputation is everything. But the final product, is it that different?
Interesting point Tom. Of my bats, the two I have used most this season I believe are pressed and at least part if not wholly made in the same place. Both are very good bats and I have enjoyed using them, or should I say, they are made in such a way that inspires confidence when you come to use them. One is definitely better than the other in my hands, but then they are different shapes, which may play a part. If I had bought a mid-size brand bat created in a similar way in the same place, would I feel the same about the way it performed? I hope so, but I don't know...
So it all comes back to confidence in your tools.