Custom Bats Cricket Forum
Equipment => Bats => Topic started by: Talisman on March 09, 2012, 01:06:29 PM
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Inspired by Norb's and his quest to test members on their knowledge I thought I'd prompt a debate about the much vaunted "Performance Willow".
When we choose a bat what factors in the willow itself are we looking for? What makes one bat play better than another? If we disregard shape, weight, handles, pressing etc and purely look at the blade itself what makes one £300+ and another sub £100? Why do some claim bats are misgraded by brands and proclaim to know more themselves?
I'll start off by saying that I believe we all want the maximum performance from our bat according to any set budget. So lets look at the face first, grains, what effect does the numbers, spacing and direction have?
What do we think of stain?, fleck?, pin knots?, dead knots?
Density, natural and forced.
What factors make a bat ugly yet perform?, is this in fact possible or simply the bat maker trying to sell off his low grade clefts?
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is this the equivalent to ugly women who have "great personalities"?
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No, unless you only want to be with a lady for jiggy jiggy.
Bats only TomTek.
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I've ways been of the impression that more stains and varying degrees of Brown wood will lower the grade but have been confused lately as many pro's and players I've spoken to since doing bits for RP tend to ask for butterfly stains and so called 'imperfections' as this area tends to be stiffer and can produce good performance. Then again I am no willow geek. Personally I like no more than 9-10 grains with even spacing, and although the grainilicious bats look nicer I think they feel harder. Ive found (and this is only from a few I've had) that the higher grained bats 12+ go better earlier but My others with around 9 grains are far better performers after they have been played in over half a season or so. it's odd really and very confusing for me as I don't have a vast knowledge but always like to learn. I'm sure there will be some logic behind it all other than pure cosmetics. There's a guy at my club though with an £80 5 grain warrior plank of a thing but when he hits the middle it stays HIT.
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On this topic, you are given a bat that you are told by the maker has been selected for the performance of the willow. If your impression is that this bat will go, then the first time you use it you will probably find that it does.
For me, it's about how the bat feels when you use it and the noise it makes. I've had a couple that feel just wonderful to use, from feedback and vibration including sound effects. I've also had a couple that really suck in all departments. However, the thing that really makes the difference is the extent of the knocking in. The 500 to 600 run old bat is generally the one that really goes, regardless of the willow look.
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So are we saying here regardless off willow grade and looks etc a bat that has been played in will always perform well afterwards?? That cant be entirely guranteed. It's all a bit odd for me, you could have the worst looking blade on earth but i bet a quality podshaver who can identify where the best playing area is could still make a bat you'd be happy using
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imo all im gonna go on is doesnt matter about grains stains etc all that crap..
more wood = better performance
Mike that 3.2 M&H u had made that i ended up with went like nothing i have ever used but it was the biggest bat id ever used,
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Maybe if I simplify it a little, would a 10 perfect grain blade with no cosmetic faults play as well as a 6 wobbly uneven grain blade with pin knots and fleck?
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Maybe if I simplify it a little, would a 10 perfect grain blade with no cosmetic faults play as well as a 6 wobbly uneven grain blade with pin knots and fleck?
Would or could?
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Maybe if I simplify it a little, would a 10 perfect grain blade with no cosmetic faults play as well as a 6 wobbly uneven grain blade with pin knots and fleck?
Does that not come down to pressing as well though. No matter how good a bat looks if its poorly pressed it will not perform to its potential. Is that not correct??
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Would, and ignore the pressing side as we are presuming that the pressing is equal for this question.
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So would it come down to moisture content and drying process. I'm eliminating each aspect as I go along. Unless its just a case of 'here are 2 bats, without knowing anything or touching them which will you go for'? I'd have to take the prettier blade
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only way to tell is to test them!
get a bat with 10 perfect grains get a bat maker to press it then get an ugly bat with dirty face and woobly grains! press it the same.
and try them, i bet it doesnt really make much of a difference at all or if it does we wouldnt be able to tell
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only way to tell is to test them!
get a bat with 10 perfect grains get a bat maker to press it then get an ugly bat with dirty face and woobly grains! press it the same.
and try them, i bet it doesnt really make much of a difference at all or if it does we wouldnt be able to tell
i agree with Simdog 100%
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Inspired by Norb's and his quest to test members on their knowledge I thought I'd prompt a debate about the much vaunted "Performance Willow".
I'll start off by saying that I believe we all want the maximum performance from our bat according to any set budget. So lets look at the face first, grains, what effect does the numbers, spacing and direction have?
What do we think of stain?, fleck?, pin knots?, dead knots?
Density, natural and forced.
What factors make a bat ugly yet perform?, is this in fact possible or simply the bat maker trying to sell off his low grade clefts?
I would think that the number and direction of grains has a major influence on the strength of the blade.
Knots in turn would be potential weak spots in the willow.
In terms of performance surely that would be down to mother nature. Moisture content, Wind speed and direction, speed of growth etc are things we have very little influence over yet can have an impact on why one piece of willow performs better than another......all other things being equal such as pressing etc....
Of course I'm no expert and am more than happy to stand corrected.
Harv
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The person using it has the biggest impact on the performance of willow.
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The person using it has the biggest impact on the performance of willow.
Was just thinking that Buzz, I bet tresco etc could go out with a broom handle and still destroy the bowling.
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Would, and ignore the pressing side as we are presuming that the pressing is equal for this question.
I think both bats will play well at different times, depending upon when they reach their peak. I mean there are crap KW bats out there that have surprised me, in the end if the bats and clefts they were made from were identical in size, weight, density etc i would expect them to play equally well,,,one of them might have a slightly longer life but would take a little longer to open up, other one might open up sooner but might not last as long... good example for me is comparison between 2 bats from last 2 seasons,,had a Newbery (9 grains) and had a MB Sher Amin (6 grains), Newbery was exceptional from the begining, MB felt like a plank (both were almost exact same weight, similar profile imo, although MB picked up a little better) so i put the MB in the team bat bag,,,ppl started using it for cathces, nets and then in matches etc and then near the end of last season i decided to try it out in nets and was shocked, both were equally good...it just took MB almost a full season to get to Newbery level..
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Am I right in thinking only 1 person will stick their neck out and comment on the question, I expected more considering the vast list of names reading this.
The claim willow selected for performance is all over the forum, does anyone even know what the claim is?
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I don't know if I'm following correct as between work and here but I'm trying to understand what you're asking Mike. The only connection I've come accross when talking or claiming performance willow is that of low density, and as far as Im concerned I don't know what the difference is as never had one. If I asked for a bat based solely on performance id just expect the brand, maker etc to tap up what meets my specs and send the best one. Am I batting at the wrong end here??
Is there a set procedure for producing or grading 'performance willow' bats or is it just marketing.
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i think that whilst we have an image of perfection in our heads (nice grains etc etc) it all comes down to the fact the willow is a natural thing. we cant control its growing process. we can obviously reduce knots by removing sprouting branches etc and ensure the ground/conditions are suited for growth but as far as im aware it will grow how it grows. you can get a dog of a cleft that out performs a looker. i would imagine that the cleft has inbuilt properties which already confirms its status as a gun, regardless of looks. i think everyone has a preconception that looks = better. we do that with alot of things in life. better looking girl, better looking car etc etc.
i guess someone with the knowledge of the willow would be able to generalise in saying that perfect grains = perfect performance and that doggy cleft wont do much but there are always exceptions to the rule. no two clefts are the same. if clefts vary so much performance could vary, same with shape, size etc etc
grains impact on the stiffness of the willow, more grains the stiffer the cleft. this is only beneficial if the pressing is varied per cleft. if not all you will have is a bit of hit and miss
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its a way of bat makers getting rid of awfull looking clefts by calling them Performance clefts!
they look diffrent but play no diffrent?
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I don't know if I'm following correct as between work and here but I'm trying to understand what you're asking Mike. The only connection I've come accross when talking or claiming performance willow is that of low density, and as far as Im concerned I don't know what the difference is as never had one. If I asked for a bat based solely on performance id just expect the brand, maker etc to tap up what meets my specs and send the best one. Am I batting at the wrong end here??
I am in your boat too mate,,,
Performance willow = low density, light weight = bigger bat for a relatively smaller weight, not the best looking willow but worth it...probs drier too...
that is what i have read/learnt/assumed it to be but not sure...
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its a way of bat makers getting rid of awfull looking clefts by calling them Performance clefts!
they look diffrent but play no diffrent?
Should it be: getting rid of awfull looking clefts by calling them Performance clefts at a similar price to better looking willow?
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Does that not come down to pressing as well though. No matter how good a bat looks if its poorly pressed it will not perform to its potential. Is that not correct??
Having seen picked up and used three different grading of bat from the same maker, in which the willow comes from different batches and they all go as well as each, I agree with Pro.
My personal point of view is that "Performance Willow"is put out there to sell bats at a higher price and therefore a gimmick.
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I am in your boat too mate,,,
Performance willow = low density, light weight = bigger bat for a relatively smaller weight, not the best looking willow but worth it...probs drier too...
that is what i have read/learnt/assumed it to be but not sure...
Not necessarily ugly though mate, I've had loads of requests for bats based only on rebound qualities and a fair few have also been full of lush grains.
It just winds me up all this technical stuff, simply because I don't know it. But we are here to find out are we not?? Come on Baron Von Talisman educate me please sir
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Having seen picked up and used three different grading of bat from the same maker, in which the willow comes from different batches and they all go as well as each, I agree with Pro.
My personal point of view is that "Performance Willow"is put out there to sell bats at a higher price and therefore a gimmick.
that is what i was trying to say but in a far more readable form lol
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Having seen picked up and used three different grading of bat from the same maker, in which the willow comes from different batches and they all go as well as each, I agree with Pro.
My personal point of view is that "Performance Willow"is put out there to sell bats at a higher price and therefore a gimmick.
I have to agree with you as well mate. I have numerous bats with me now grades as mp+2 blueroom but they all go very well, but are reduced in price according to the grading. If this is just about a slogan 'performance willow' atached to lower grade bats then its a tough one to call because yes you want to clear your stock but you arent necessarily selling an inferior product to the cosmetically better bats. It's a tough one, or I'm just too simple to understand it lol
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I think i feel the need to add some additional points here:
I would imagine/expect performance willow bat to be equally as good simply because the bat makers reputations relies on selling bats that go..i know there might be odd bat here and there that is not as good..if i had a cleft that was ugly but i knew it would still play but wont sell unless i brand/name it something attractive...
So isnt it finally down to selling a bat that is comparable to other bats but ppl might look away if its ugly, so sell that as performance willow, now if you find a cleft that is good looking, lighter etc then that becomes "pro preformance" willow hence fetching even more money...
I might get hanged for this but couldn't you categorize GM Players bats as performance willow bats? they are not the prettiest looking willow...
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Ignoring shape and pressing you want a blade that will offer you consistently high performance. Evenly spaced grains offer this, the more grains the stiffer the face but when you get a really tight blade 16+ the stiffness can make it hard to press so 10-12 would be the most common in the very best performers, colour does not seem to effect this even though the heartwood is a bit drier and therefore a little more stiff and brittle than the sapwood.
Speck and fleck is the depositing of minerals in the willow whilst growing, it tends not to offer any performance gain or loss but overall adds a little in weight.
Pin knots are harder and less responsive but can work well in the toe or shoulder of the bat.
Stain can come in many forms, the typical butterfly and bar stain are due to the willow coming from an older variety of willow, it was phased out for cosmetic reasons but those old enough to remember when it was common point to it offering a slightly lower density and improved resilience. Blue willow is caused by uptake of Iron, again this tends to be rare as caused by the siting of the tree's and adds strength to the blade.
Density is an unknown factor in growing, some trees produce low density willow but rather than being down to one factor or another is probably due to a combination and has proved fickle to narrow down. Low density tends to be found across the grades.
The end result is that when you look at the bats supplied by bat makers to players, and by that I mean professional players you see what we on the forum would class as pretty bats but also big for their weight.
For us a bat with clean straight and even grains is going to play better than one without, based on being made the same way.
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My understanding on this matter is that tighter grain will make a stiffer blade but it wont have much life. It is mainly due to the moisture content in the bat due to fast growth of fibre (reference SAF Blog)... Slight imperfections in the willow will not necessarily hinder performance as the performance is realted to number of factors including the mass of wood in the hitting area (second part as per Andy SAF blog).
Pin Knot , Butterfly stain and speck on a willow normally dont bother me as it is purely cosmetic. I will worry about a dead knot on the cleft (that is just me as there are ways to get around it). Most G1 willows are graded just on looks and these days some bat makers are grading them on how the willow plays (which is nice to see as I am paying the money for a bat which performs rather than just looks nice in your hand : Then again that is just me!!!).
Prowannabe has a point as well as pressing plays a great part in the performance of the bat.
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Thank god for that :)
Good to learn a little bit here and there. More topics like this please
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So, following on is the question for Norbs and Talisman.
How does low density willow improve the performance when on two bats with the same weight and equivalent shapes, the mass of the willow behind the ball at the point of impact will be the same and therefore the swing speed (theoretically) should be?.
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Having spent much time watching a very well respected brand grade it went something along the lines of provisionally marking out grades based of looks, weight would then lead to bats being swapped a little, heavier going down and lighter coming up but only ever one grade. Finally every bat was hit with a mallet and nothing was ever upgraded but some is the highest bracket could drop to the bottom one. Why? well because to be a top model it needed to look and play the part so everyone spending a lot of money was happy, but in the middle you could get something that didn't quite look the part but played as well as the top one. In the bottom grade it might look good or bad but did not quite ever play as well as the other 2 grades. To me is was and is a very fair method of grading.
However you then get the buyer who see's 14 straight clean grains in the bottom grade and claims to have found one that slipped through the net and promptly removes the grading sticker and pronounce s a bargain to be had when they sell it on. Who benefits from this? purely the seller.
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So, following on is the question for Norbs and Talisman.
How does low density willow improve the performance when on two bats with the same weight and equivalent shapes, the mass of the willow behind the ball at the point of impact will be the same and therefore the swing speed (theoretically) should be?.
In simple terms, Yes. It will increase mass and stiffness which if both bats are pressed the same will lead to an increase in rebound.
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Having spent much time watching a very well respected brand grade it went something along the lines of provisionally marking out grades based of looks, weight would then lead to bats being swapped a little, heavier going down and lighter coming up but only ever one grade. Finally every bat was hit with a mallet and nothing was ever upgraded but some is the highest bracket could drop to the bottom one. Why? well because to be a top model it needed to look and play the part so everyone spending a lot of money was happy, but in the middle you could get something that didn't quite look the part but played as well as the top one. In the bottom grade it might look good or bad but did not quite ever play as well as the other 2 grades. To me is was and is a very fair method of grading.
However you then get the buyer who see's 14 straight clean grains in the bottom grade and claims to have found one that slipped through the net and promptly removes the grading sticker and pronounce s a bargain to be had when they sell it on. Who benefits from this? purely the seller.
Talisman who will your recommend when buying a custom bat?
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his own brand lol
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his own brand lol
:D.... :D..... :D... :D
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Talisman who will your recommend when buying a custom bat?
If I was to say anyone but me I'd be bursting bubbles of expectation.....
In all honesty I would choose someone who would be prepared to answer a load of questions, have a track record of producing quality bats, have a great willow selection and not ram a sale down my throat. There are brands on here I have bought from and loved it, brands I've bought from and detested and friends selling some great great bats. If I had a magic answer it would be very boring, people love trying new brands and power to them.
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Talisman who will your recommend when buying a custom bat?
Still waiting for the Beach Cricket Viv V12....
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If I was to say anyone but me I'd be bursting bubbles of expectation.....
In all honesty I would choose someone who would be prepared to answer a load of questions, have a track record of producing quality bats, have a great willow selection and not ram a sale down my throat. There are brands on here I have bought from and loved it, brands I've bought from and detested and friends selling some great great bats. If I had a magic answer it would be very boring, people love trying new brands and power to them.
Thanks Mate...That is a very honest answer.... :)
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Wasnt the £400 talisman sold for its performance abilities?
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Indeed, if you can find a cleft without fault with 30 grains and press it then I'd say it is worth more on the open market, but of course you must remember that there were 2 and 1 broke in the press so you have to factor that in.
At 40% of the price would it only have 40% of the performance of a Laver Signature or Newbery Cenkos? Having tapped it up I can safely say it was remarkable.
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So performance willow is not a myth. Finding it is the hard or enjoyable part.
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I'd point to the fact that "performance willow" is usually a term used to flog a low grade bat with a high grade price tag. Willow grading has a purpose, misgrades are rare.
Finding the ultimate performance is a quest I think we are all on, for me it is a case of finding lots of high quality clefts and keeping a high percentage at their best through making. That is the real trick, you lose a percentage at each stage so minimising that loss is a key factor.
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Sorry I miss understood. So which company's can we trust to sell us low grade performance bats. Well I got a "performance" bat from laver. Only thing is its not ugly, which strangely enough dissapointed me.
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In simple terms, Yes. It will increase mass and stiffness which if both bats are pressed the same will lead to an increase in rebound.
I'm calling you out on that one Mike. The mass of the bat is the same, regardless of size. If it has a mass of 2lb9oz, the only way that the low density bat will have more mass than the other is if you glue more wood on it.
Stiffness is a function of the willow structure. If you have low density willow then the cells that make up the willow are larger/the material making them up is further apart, so the air that has replaced the liquid in the drying process makes up more of the willow.
Is it possible that the reason a low density willow performs better for the weight is actually down to the additional air in the structure?
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Does the quality of a ball affect the performance of a bat. A top quality bat made for an international cricketer made to play against test match quality balls, would it play the same against a 3.99 sports direct bat breaker.? I don't think so.
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Love this topic makes.for interesting reading, well done Talisman
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Does the quality of a ball affect the performance of a bat. A top quality bat made for an international cricketer made to play against test match quality balls, would it play the same against a 3.99 sports direct bat breaker.? I don't think so.
Good point - it certainly doesnt make the same sound
Also can you always tell how good a bat is from the initial test with the mallet ? I sold a bat on very cheaply to a pal as it felt a bit dead for its size - as if it was overpressed and hard ?
A few months later however its going like a rocket as it is now broken in and the face feels as though it has softened up - and it now makes a great sound off the mallet.
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Tim, I meant volume.
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So how do SG grade their willow?
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I'm calling you out on that one Mike. The mass of the bat is the same, regardless of size. If it has a mass of 2lb9oz, the only way that the low density bat will have more mass than the other is if you glue more wood on it.
Stiffness is a function of the willow structure. If you have low density willow then the cells that make up the willow are larger/the material making them up is further apart, so the air that has replaced the liquid in the drying process makes up more of the willow.
Is it possible that the reason a low density willow performs better for the weight is actually down to the additional air in the structure?
Don't know about the rest of you, but my head is spinning with all these terms being bandied around - density, mass, volume, weight.
Let's do a quick recap of the basic physics:
1. Density = Mass / Volume
2. Weight = Mass x gravity i.e m*g
When we say a bat *weighs* 2lb 9 oz, that's really the mass (not weight)
Anywho, gravity being a constant on planet earth, mass and weight could be used interchangeably for the purposes of this discussion (since greater mass means greater weight, g being constant)
If mass (or weight) of two bats is the same, say 2lb 9oz, a low density bat must have greater volume.
From #1
Volume = Mass / Density -> lower density means higher volume, mass remaining constant.
Therefore a low density bat will look bigger (edges, spine, everything) for two bats with the same *shape* i.e. profile
I agree with Tim - the lower density bat just has bigger volume, mass of wood doesn't change. The difference in volume between the bats is made up by air. As an extreme analogy, think of low density willow as a block of sponge vs. a solid block of cheese. If they both weighed the same, the sponge would have more volume due to all the air pockets in it.
I partially agree with Mike. If both bats are pressed the same, the lower density one will have more stiffness and more rebound. For the same thickness of the hard top surface, there's probably more "layers" of cells comprising the pressed surface in the low density bat.
My theory (and this is just a theory) is that the airpockets create a spring effect. At a microscopic level they are able to compress when the ball hits and then spring back to their original size. This elastic effect probably wears off after repeated use, i.e. the cell walls of wood lose their ability to spring back after repeated compression, the air pockets eventually collapse, and the bat loses its rebound.
Thought I'd be one of the few brave souls to stick out their necks on this topic. Would love to hear what forum experts think about this. Feel free to debunk my theory :) although I don't think it is completely implausible. I'm not a batmaker, just a guy crazy about bats and cricket in general. I do have a graduate degree in Mechanical Engg, and have a technical background in the mechanical behavior of materials...
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Having spent much time watching a very well respected brand grade it went something along the lines of provisionally marking out grades based of looks, weight would then lead to bats being swapped a little, heavier going down and lighter coming up but only ever one grade. Finally every bat was hit with a mallet and nothing was ever upgraded but some is the highest bracket could drop to the bottom one. Why? well because to be a top model it needed to look and play the part so everyone spending a lot of money was happy, but in the middle you could get something that didn't quite look the part but played as well as the top one. In the bottom grade it might look good or bad but did not quite ever play as well as the other 2 grades...
This!!! Years of bat willow wisdom condensed into a few lines. I am going to print this out and put it up on my wall, so I don't forget.
This is gold Jerry, GOLD!! (Seinfeld anyone?)
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So how do SG grade their willow?
In my opinion I dont think anyone cares about SG on here!
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In my opinion I dont think anyone cares about SG on here!
Haha :D to be honest, I don't either!
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I do!!!! Lol
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Further to this, a bat is pressed, knocked in and played with. Each action compresses the face and it never decompresses. Bats never open up, they firm up. An overpressed bat stays hard and will only get harder. A soft pressed bat does not play well quickly, it takes more knocking and playing to hit its peak than a well pressed bat.
Better willow needs more care when pressed, if in its raw state it offers more rebound then it will be harder to compress.
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Maybe if I simplify it a little, would a 10 perfect grain blade with no cosmetic faults play as well as a 6 wobbly uneven grain blade with pin knots and fleck?
Better question - are most of us good enough to really notice the difference in a match situation?
If there were no difference, why does every pro in the NZ-SA game have 10-20 ruler straight grains, even the lad using a Laver?
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In my opinion I dont think anyone cares about SG on here!
If you don't care about how the Worlds largest consumer of cricket bat willow uses, grades and selects performance willow, fine.
But I do.
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If you don't care about how the Worlds largest consumer of cricket bat willow uses, grades and selects performance willow, fine.
But I do.
What % of SGs do you see on this website in comparisons to other bats?
Fine if you do but on this forum SG has a minimal footprint
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The talk of misgrades mainly goes on with big brand bats. Many of which come from SG.
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I would like to hear how Sg grade their willow
Please fire away
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The talk of misgrades mainly goes on with big brand bats. Many of which come from SG.
Tom that is fine mate but I'd stick my neck out here and say most people on here wouldn't know who SG make for and just see SG as SG not the differing brands you are alluding to!
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If you don't care about how the Worlds largest consumer of cricket bat willow uses, grades and selects performance willow, fine.
But I do.
Well I do to, but quite why you need to be asked to post what you want to post is bit of a mystery.
My problem with SG is that it is hard to quantify as I don't see their own brand and have no idea if they would dictate to Kookaburra or the other way round. Ive been able to tap up 2 Kahuna Players this season and they were beautiful and not bad rebound wise, but a Recoil Players was a plank, worse size and rebound than a 400 so interested to know why.
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(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae233/shentsphotos/libro%20guess%20the%20grade/librograding001.jpg)
I understand that these are made and graded by SG ?
There are 3 different grades here
1 at grade 1, 2 at grade 2, and 2 at grade 3
any ideas as to which is the grade 1 ?
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Are the models defined on grades, what I mean by that is some brands stick to the merchants grading and others do not offer a description of what makes an "elite" or "county" model.
Is guess the second one in is the 1, but they all look like 2's to me.
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correct no 2 is the grade 1 but to my uneducated eye it doesnt look that special in the flesh
number 4 is graded as a 3 but is actually quite nice
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Not saying my eyes are educated but they all look the same grade, hopefully Tom will enlighten us now I've asked nicely.
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Mike who would you say your fussiest customer was on the grading front?
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got to be charlie? lol
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Not what I've heard
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It's either Charlie or some other member, alias starts with a C I reckon... Hmmmmm ;)
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Not really sure of anyone who would quibble my selections, try to ensure each bat is to their liking, of course so much crap talked about who gets bats from whom that people believe the hype. I'd hope most people who come to me do so based on knowledge as opposed to hearsay.
What about you?
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Which Charlie are we talking about?
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Have to be honest here in my 30 years of cricket I have never come across the term "performance willow" until I discovered this forum. I have only come across sellers on here claiming to be selling bats called performance clefts. i.e ugly willow that performs. Can't say I have ever tried to buy a big brand bat and been told "look mate this bat isn't pretty but it's a performance cleft"
Not saying big brands don't upgrade as I am sure they do but never been sold one as a performance bat.
I'd put my neck out and say 99% of big brand LE graded bats will perform. All the ones I have bought over the years I never had a bad one.
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LE's are by definition Limited Editiions and will 99% of the time graded by performance and looks i.e lots and straight grains. Most of them i woudl guess will perform to a good level, but i would think that manufacturers will throw in a couple of clefts for LE bats that look nice but will not have quite the rebound of other clefts. the general public will equate performance and LE's with lots of grains as well so... looks is probably more important that performance. Only a very few clefts genuinely offer both say something like 3% ( very small number anyway)
"performance clefts" and there is a bit of a myth about these are either on here are usually
1) those normally reserved for sponsored players. Those that look nice and also have over average performance, or rebound
2) those that are not as pretty, but have better than average performance off the mallet.
3) There are also bats that are made from overdried wood meaning it will come up lighter and generally have a shorter life. You can therefore put more wood behind the bat and it will therefore will probably have more performance than a normal bat at the same weight. I.e Performance cleft
Final note on this, and of course this is just my opinion. That some people on here have access to good and very occasionally great willow. However the number of " performance" or special bats coming up on here is well over what is normal. The cynic in me suggests that not all that glitters is gold. However f you are prepared to filter the wheat from the chaff then i think this forum gets you access to some really good sticks, particularly if you are prepared to use second hand bats.
These guy buy bats for fun and then soon tire of them after only pretty much knocking in the bat for the next buyer, and you know what some of then really are performance clefts!
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I have three exceptional bats from different manufacturers :
1. SS Custom made ( directly from SS, and Jatin mentioned he himself selected the willow for the bat.)
Around 14 Grains, 50% heartwood.
Scored pretty heavily last year with this bat.
Weight - 2.10 with one grip, scuff and toe guard.
This is how it sounds with the mallet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IDES9HYJBs&feature=channel
2. Black Cat ( Pro) : Using this term 'Pro' as described by charlie.
Around 7 grains ( not really straight) and not the best looking willow.
Weight -- 2.9 with one grip, scuff and toe guard.
Used in last few games last season and it seems to be a very good bat.
This is how it sounds with the mallet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mycOm9i0WMw&feature=youtu.be
Finally,
Screaming Cat, Series 1 :
10 dead straight grains.
weight : 2.10.8 with scuff sheet and toe guard ( handle is heavier than the other two ).
Knocking almost done, had some catching practice with the bat and the ball really flies off.
This is how it sounds with the mallet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8NgEnQa2Ec&feature=channel
Must say they all sound different, SS sounds bit heavy, Black cat dull and Screaming cat crisp. Not sure though how to translate that into judging a performance based on a mallet test.
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LE's are by definition Limited Editiions and will 99% of the time graded by performance and looks i.e lots and straight grains. Most of them i woudl guess will perform to a good level, but i would think that manufacturers will throw in a couple of clefts for LE bats that look nice but will not have quite the rebound of other clefts. the general public will equate performance and LE's with lots of grains as well so... looks is probably more important that performance. Only a very few clefts genuinely offer both say something like 3% ( very small number anyway)
"performance clefts" and there is a bit of a myth about these are either on here are usually
1) those normally reserved for sponsored players. Those that look nice and also have over average performance, or rebound
2) those that are not as pretty, but have better than average performance off the mallet.
3) There are also bats that are made from overdried wood meaning it will come up lighter and generally have a shorter life. You can therefore put more wood behind the bat and it will therefore will probably have more performance than a normal bat at the same weight. I.e Performance cleft
Final note on this, and of course this is just my opinion. That some people on here have access to good and very occasionally great willow. However the number of " performance" or special bats coming up on here is well over what is normal. The cynic in me suggests that not all that glitters is gold. However f you are prepared to filter the wheat from the chaff then i think this forum gets you access to some really good sticks, particularly if you are prepared to use second hand bats.
These guy buy bats for fun and then soon tire of them after only pretty much knocking in the bat for the next buyer, and you know what some of then really are performance clefts!
So where does my 20 year old Limited Edition with 6 grains fit in here considering it is/was the equal best performing bat I have ever owned?
Were bats graded differently in the past?
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I have three exceptional bats from different manufacturers :
1. SS Custom made ( directly from SS, and Jatin mentioned he himself selected the willow for the bat.)
Around 14 Grains, 50% heartwood.
Scored pretty heavily last year with this bat.
Weight - 2.10 with one grip, scuff and toe guard.
This is how it sounds with the mallet:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IDES9HYJBs&feature=channel[/url]
2. Black Cat ( Pro) : Using this term 'Pro' as described by charlie.
Around 7 grains ( not really straight) and not the best looking willow.
Weight -- 2.9 with one grip, scuff and toe guard.
Used in last few games last season and it seems to be a very good bat.
This is how it sounds with the mallet:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mycOm9i0WMw&feature=youtu.be[/url]
Finally,
Screaming Cat, Series 1 :
10 dead straight grains.
weight : 2.10.8 with scuff sheet and toe guard ( handle is heavier than the other two ).
Knocking almost done, had some catching practice with the bat and the ball really flies off.
This is how it sounds with the mallet:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8NgEnQa2Ec&feature=channel[/url]
Must say they all sound different, SS sounds bit heavy, Black cat dull and Screaming cat crisp. Not sure though how to translate that into judging a performance based on a mallet test.
Priceless! I've just spent the last 5 mins listening to all 3 youtube videos and getting some very funny looks from my girlfriend!?!
I've read the whole topic with great interest as I'm in the middle of trying to decide which of my 5 bats this season will perform best for which format i.e. t20 v 40 over before nets (starting this week) and purely from knocking in at the mo with my ball mallet rather than bat mallet.
So firstly thanks to you all.
I personally love the science part with the low density aspect and the better rebound due to larger air pockets and have further surmised that:
a. beauty is in the eye of the beholder - yes straight(ish) grains (6-12) and staining in the toe/shoulder where there's a risk of damage.
b. weight and pick-up in my wrists which are not as big or strong as I would like
c. you can pick up great bats off this forum that don't live up to the expectations of the original owner but fulfil the dreams of others so long may that continue
d. bat sellers whether mass producers or family based businesses are in the business of 1. selling bats for profit and 2. at the mercy of the natural willow stocks they can get hold of at the time as it's a natural process. The bigger companies should have the ability to hand pick the best from wherever in the World but then they are mass producers so having to supply far and wide (so don't always believe the hype) and as i'm not a Pro I doubt i'd ever get near one of their 'best performing' bats and you know what.. I don't mind - see c. again. I love the idea of finding the perfect bat(s) for me from another's cast-off as they are on the same quest themselves and looking to finance/order perhaps a custom made perfect bat for them or just recoup money for whatever. That's the next leap for me too but I'm having too much fun making my way through all the quality brands (many of which are on this forum) and looking for a bargain too. Unfortunately I don't play enough cricket so it'll be a long journey. I also sell on bats to my teammates to refinance new purchases which I enjoy as I see first hand the pleasure and performance of a bat perhaps not quite right for me.
e. I was under the impression that Pro's get blank handmade bats from their preferred manufacturers and put on their sponsors stickers e.g. nike, reebok etc Is that true or hype again? and is there a list of manufaturer's that supply different brands e.g. SG supply Kookaburra and Adidas.. is that correct and who else???
I may have gone off topic slightly as this subject has evolved but I'm looking at my 5 bats very closely now.. and listening very closely to the sounds due to the density and feel off the ball mallet...the funny looks from my girlfriend will continue as the season has truly started.... nets this week.. yipeee! I might have to stop wearing my helmet around the flat though as I think it freaks her out a bit when she gets home from work...
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I have to agree with Steelcouch that far too many low grade bats are upgraded to "performance" grade to either increase the price or to shift the slower moving bats.
When judging performance of any bat you are not just subjected to the natural potential of the willow but the pressing, handle type, shaping and fitting, bat shape, weight, moisture content, knocking in and many more factors. Also you might have a low middled bat that during a damp summer is supreme on slow low tracks and the following scorching summer feels heavy and hard to score with on quicker bouncier tracks. There are so many variables that we need to look at each area in detail and isolation to understand it.
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number 4
There have been trends over the years as to what is desirable.
less grains were more desirable about 30 years ago rather than 20 and i doubt you woudl see anything less than a seven grainer sold as an LE these days.
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Not read this thread fully so not sure if this has been written or not, but is LE or G1+++++++++ a product of peoples current obsession with lots of grains and big edges?
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Not read this thread fully so not sure if this has been written or not, but is LE or G1+++++++++ a product of peoples current obsession with lots of grains and big edges?
I would say it is more a term that bat makers use, and has used for years. A way of making more money???
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I would say it is more a term that bat makers use, and has used for years. A way of making more money???
Straight grain light willow is quite rare, sometimes there are smoke and mirrors involved in getting there I'd agree with you